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Dogthinker
04-01-2011, 09:33 PM
Oda on legendary seemed a little easy, so I thought I'd have a go to see how fast I could do it.

Summer 1553 - turn 34, was the answer. That's 86 turns before the time limit for a short campaign.

Victory stats screenshot here (http://steamcommunity.com/id/dogthinker/screenshot/578918346788335405)

I hit 25 provinces in turn 32, so I'd clearly waited a few turns too long to hit Kyoto. 4 more provinces than I needed at the end. Considering I also delayed my final recruitment push by several years to have time to grab the first spear +1 experience tech, I'm seriously thinking this could be done in well under 30 turns... Maybe 25 turns, if you relied much more heavily on (seriously overpowered) ashigaru archers than the balanced spear/archer armies I used.

Oda should not be labelled as a 'Hard' faction. It's the easiest *by far*.

The answer to the 'should you build markets' question turned out to be 'not after the first 10 turns', in this case...

Macbeth
04-01-2011, 09:36 PM
how?

Dalkar
04-01-2011, 09:38 PM
Expanding very, very aggressively, I think. Using ashigaru armies, easy and quick to recruit with very cheap upkeep, especially as Oda.

Apotheosis
04-01-2011, 09:39 PM
I approve of this thread. :)

Apotheosis
04-01-2011, 09:41 PM
I'd also like to admit that it was Oda that first made me realize how little building matters. It turns out you can pretty much win as any faction just by building tons of Ashigaru. It's easier as Oda, of course, simply because of the cheaper Ashigaru. But you can do this with any clan.

Dogthinker
04-01-2011, 09:48 PM
Fast, aggressive play. I captured provinces on turns 1, 3 and 5, for example. Oda ashigaru are just too good, and too cheap. It would be good enough if Oda's ashigaru were just cheaper, OR just better. For them to be both is devastating...

Careful diplomacy to minimise the number of opponents at any moment.

Out-backstabbing the AI clans - my Daimyo ended up with a shameful -2 modifier to honour for breaking treaties, since I simply didn't have time to wait for my allies to betray me when the time came to take their land.

There was a lull in fighting after killing Hojo and Takeda, while I banked about 25,000 koku, then I burnt it all pouring out vast armies from the castles I'd positioned at the edges of the empire... Nothing can stand up to 19 units of ashigaru and a general, that early in the game, and I was producing that much every turn.

No wasting of cash on silly economy buildings. I didn't even research the farms upgrade. 2 food from each province was enough to support the few Castles that I needed, to produce my elite ashigaru.

Kyoto was fun, and the closest I came to a really serious defeat. About 200 ashigaru were all that was left on the field, after a stack and a half of nothing but ashigaru out maneuvered and out fought two stacks of mostly samurai to take the citadel - 22 of my units were annihilated in that assault, but it was necessary.


If I played on, I suspect I could control the entire map within another 10 turns.

Nasti
04-01-2011, 09:55 PM
Very nice i must say. I am having difficulties on legendary, though my current game with Shimazu seems like it will be in the bag if i dont through my armies away....

I would very much like to see how you battle the AI, as you have pure Heroic won battles. Do a youtube series, aiming for the fastest completion with oda. Think you will gain many followers :D I´d like to see it

Railen
04-01-2011, 10:04 PM
Ashiguru are indeed borderline OP in the campaign especially if you expand rapidly. Another easy faction to win with is Chosokabe as their archers are just beyond broken and the increased income to farms would help a ton if your just saying F it and attacking everything in sight. However I think Oda is the easiest of the campaigns once you learn how to survive the first couple of turns, which shouldn't take anyone with a brain more then 2-4 tries.

The only time you end up needing higher quality troops is if you take your time.

Dogthinker
04-01-2011, 10:21 PM
Very nice i must say. I am having difficulties on legendary, though my current game with Shimazu seems like it will be in the bag if i dont through my armies away....

I would very much like to see how you battle the AI, as you have pure Heroic won battles. Do a youtube series, aiming for the fastest completion with oda. Think you will gain many followers :D I´d like to see it

Thanks. I captured 29 provinces, so 28 of those 55 Heroic victories will be me capturing enemy castles - if you don't get a heroic victory in almost 100% of your sieges, you're doing something very wrong, the AI is *terrible* at siege defence, and not much better at siege assaults. 1 of my sieges was a Pyrrhic Victory, as 22 of my units were outright eliminated, although it was anything but, as this battle secured me the Shogunate.

A fair number of the rest will be siege defences, or river crossing defences. Again, the AI just can't cope. It's embarrassing when the AI tries to assault a fort with a force I could probably defeat on the open field.

Then there's ninjas... Did you know that if you sabotage an army then it cannot decline battle? So, if you sabotage an army of 10 units when you have a stack of 20 nearby, then you've effectively assassinated the entire army... Winning a battle where you had 2 men to every 1 of their doesn't seem very heroic, but Shogun 2 seems to think so...

Youtube series... With my internet connection... No. Haha. It'd take far more time to upload than it would to play the game. It'd also be a lot of editing work, as I sit there and have a good old think sometimes, especially when I'm trying to figure out how to optimise my diplomacy to meet my long term goals.


Ashiguru are indeed borderline OP in the campaign especially if you expand rapidly. Another easy faction to win with is Chosokabe as their archers are just beyond broken and the increased income to farms would help a ton if your just saying F it and attacking everything in sight. However I think Oda is the easiest of the campaigns once you learn how to survive the first couple of turns, which shouldn't take anyone with a brain more then 2-4 tries.

Ashigaru aren't just borderline OP. They ARE OP. Clearly. If it were up to me, I'd balance Ashigaru like this:
1) Oda loses his combat bonuses to ashigaru - so they're just cheaper, not better.
2) All ashigaru lose 1 morale (also weaken the general's Rally ability, it makes morale almost irrelevant.)
3) Remove bow ashigaru (?!) ... OK, or maybe increase their cost and upkeep by 50%. Yes, that'd mean they cost nearly as much as Samurai Archers. But guess what, they're almost as effective as Samurai Archers. Making them fire slower would look wrong, too slow. Making them less accurate wouldn't help - it's a cloud of arrows effect anyway, with so many of them for so cheap. You could make them deal less damage, I suppose (we don't get to see the damage/armour penetration stats in game :/ )

You have a good point with Chosokabe. Perhaps the fastest possible win might be with nothing but Chosokabe bow ashigaru. I still think Oda might be faster though - it's hard to see another faction that has more targets in easy reach.

Railen
04-01-2011, 10:26 PM
Ya Oda should be the easiest followed by the Chosokabe because they get bigger archer bonuses then the Oda do and farming bonuses however the Oda have a much better starting point for rapid expansion. Although since you are just spaming Ashiguru it's not terrible hard to build one ship get some dudes on it and quickly blitz central japan after you blitz your island.

Even after making those arguments i would say Oda is the easiest to win with if you are very good with the game, and Choso is safer one to use.

Sideshow
04-01-2011, 10:26 PM
You write that you took provinces on the first turn... far as I know the only turn you can even reach on the first turn is the one North of your starting position, which means the 'rebel' army in your province and tha tokugawa would both take your capital on their turn 1.

Please enlighten me as to how you did this?

Railen
04-01-2011, 10:29 PM
He probably took the province north of his capital with most of his starting force and not all of it, you can then use a 2 unit army to defend against the inevitable siege. I prefer capturing their province on turn 2 rather then turn one but I am definitely willing to admit the OP is better at this game then me.

Dogthinker
04-01-2011, 10:36 PM
He probably took the province north of his capital with most of his starting force and not all of it, you can then use a 2 unit army to defend against the inevitable siege. I prefer capturing their province on turn 2 rather then turn one but I am definitely willing to admit the OP is better at this game then me.

You got the right idea! You just need to use one little trick to make it a sure thing (below.)


You write that you took provinces on the first turn... far as I know the only turn you can even reach on the first turn is the one North of your starting position, which means the 'rebel' army in your province and tha tokugawa would both take your capital on their turn 1.

Please enlighten me as to how you did this?

Move everything to the bridge. Split Daimyo and the 3 Yari Ashigaru to attack the fort (the rest of the force will arrive as reinforcements.) Let nothing escape. Don't take casualties to the samurai or the bows. Heroic victory. Exempt from taxes takes the province to 0 happiness. General, Yari Samurai, and Bow Ashigaru return home to defend.

The rebels will probably try to attack, in which case you will wipe them out with this small defence, almost without casualties, leaving you free to kill Tokugawa's invasion force on turn 2. I think it's actually possible to take Tokugawa's capital on turn 2, but I killed his invasion force first, then advanced into his land on turn 3 instead.

Note, in the siege defense, and the attack on Tokugawa, use the samurai aggressively! As soon as they get down to around 20 men or so, disband them. Your ashigaru are nearly as good, and cost much less upkeep :D

Railen
04-01-2011, 10:45 PM
You got the right idea! You just need to use one little trick to make it a sure thing (below.)



Move everything to the bridge. Split Daimyo and the 3 Yari Ashigaru to attack the fort (the rest of the force will arrive as reinforcements.) Let nothing escape. Don't take casualties to the samurai or the bows. Heroic victory. Exempt from taxes takes the province to 0 happiness. General, Yari Samurai, and Bow Ashigaru return home to defend.

The rebels will probably try to attack, in which case you will wipe them out with this small defence, almost without casualties, leaving you free to kill Tokugawa's invasion force on turn 2. I think it's actually possible to take Tokugawa's capital on turn 2, but I killed his invasion force first, then advanced into his land on turn 3 instead.

Note, in the siege defense, and the attack on Tokugawa, use the samurai aggressively! As soon as they get down to around 20 men or so, disband them. Your ashigaru are nearly as good, and cost much less upkeep :D

It can be annoying when you are trying to kill the invasion forces and you use a slightly too big army so they run away from the initial fight. It's always good to know what they will think they can win so you don't have to waste ALL your movement chasing them down.

Also have you tried suiciding your starting Diamyo to improve diplomacy initially with your neighbors? It helps a TON.

I normally get him killed turn one, take the province north of Owari turn 2 and I can usually get trade agreements from everyone because I don't have Joe ****** in charge anymore.

Dogthinker
04-01-2011, 11:00 PM
It can be annoying when you are trying to kill the invasion forces and you use a slightly too big army so they run away from the initial fight. It's always good to know what they will think they can win so you don't have to waste ALL your movement chasing them down.

Which is another reason to support this method of starting. Most of the time they'll attack the fort, since they think they have enough.


Also have you tried suiciding your starting Diamyo to improve diplomacy initially with your neighbors? It helps a TON.

I normally get him killed turn one, take the province north of Owari turn 2 and I can usually get trade agreements from everyone because I don't have Joe ****** in charge anymore.

No, for two reasons:
1) I can get trade agreements on turn 1 with nearly everyone anyway. I suspect his -20 modifier is bugged, I don't see a modifier for it on the diplomacy screen.
2) If I sacrifice my Daimyo I have one less general. That's one less zero-upkeep unit, that means less koku. It also means one less commissioner, which also means less koku (on that note, I also set Oda's youngest son to be the heir, so when the elder son comes of age he can actually take up an commission, instead of being stuck in the heir role.)

EDIT: To put it another way... What value does a general have? It's certainly a lot more than 1000 koku (which I gleefully pay every time I get offered a chance to recruit a general.) So, if I had the choice between bribing to get an extra 1 to 20 points to make a deal (if I remember right that's around 2000 koku max, you have to spend quite a bit more than that before the cost of bribing starts to shoot up,) or suiciding my Daimyo, then I'd usually pick the bribe.

Apotheosis
04-02-2011, 01:02 AM
1) I can get trade agreements on turn 1 with nearly everyone anyway. I suspect his -20 modifier is bugged, I don't see a modifier for it on the diplomacy screen.

I noticed this too. Didn't seem to actually do anything.

MidnightInsomnia
04-02-2011, 04:44 AM
Very nice. I have yet to play legendary myself, gonna give it a try in the summer after finals.

Not that I doubt you, but the screenshot you posted doesn`t actually show that you won the game on Legendary. You may need to find a better one.

Madae
04-02-2011, 05:29 AM
I was saying this same thing when I first played as Oda. They nearly always die turn 1-2, but they are an incredible faction if player-played. They are definitely the easiest when it comes to Legendary mode simply because of the ashigaru bonuses.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 08:42 AM
Very nice. I have yet to play legendary myself, gonna give it a try in the summer after finals.

Not that I doubt you, but the screenshot you posted doesn`t actually show that you won the game on Legendary. You may need to find a better one.

Stats screenshot is nice as it shows the stats, I didn't put it up as proof, just as info :)

Screenshots are worthless as proof of anything. It was just a nice quick way to post the game stats.

You only have to play using Oda Ashigaru for a few hours, to know that what I've done is possible. :D

W4lt3r
04-02-2011, 11:33 AM
Install Darthmod and then try.. The archer firing angles are bit different now and any archers stationed next to the wall is in pretty good cover from maximum range fire and lot of other tweaks.
But holy hell, 8 years to win on legendary. There should be special achievement to obtain if you beat the campaign in 10 years or less.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 01:00 PM
I lost interest in Shogun 2 after reading this thread.

I never played Oda but playing Takeda I had to spend almost 20 turns just to campaign in the East wiping out Date.
It takes 1 year just to go from one province to the next in the northeastern end of Japan.
(The names associated with the earthquake are there. Fukushima, Miagi etc.)
And then I had to pull the army to the western front afterward and it takes 2 years so I used ships to transport.
I guess as Oda you don't have the same problem becasue troops are disposable; just build new units on the western front.
And this was only on VH/VH, not legendary.

Dogthinker seems to know what he is doing. I suggest he try long campaign or other clans though, especially Takeda and Uesgi. It takes uesgi about 3-4 turns just to go to the next nearest province.

SkunkOne
04-02-2011, 02:31 PM
Ashiguru are indeed borderline OP in the campaign especially if you expand rapidly. Another easy faction to win with is Chosokabe as their archers are just beyond broken and the increased income to farms would help a ton if your just saying F it and attacking everything in sight. However I think Oda is the easiest of the campaigns once you learn how to survive the first couple of turns, which shouldn't take anyone with a brain more then 2-4 tries.

The only time you end up needing higher quality troops is if you take your time.

haha, learning to survive the first couple turns was the first thing I leared. Only on my 2nd campain both were on hard. But my first 1 I thought I was doing great 5 turns in and then died turn 7 0_o.

andferpa
04-02-2011, 02:39 PM
Just one question, I might be asking a really obvious question, but how are we supposed to know that the campaign you played was legendary? you could be playing easy and we would have to take your word for it.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 03:03 PM
... how are we supposed to know that the campaign you played was legendary?

The same goes for what anybody else says over the web. It is a personal choice. In my case I believe he did what he said he had done.

P.S. I tried it and it really works. You can take Mino on the first turn and defend Owary at the same time. Oda Ashigaru is seriously overpowered.

But I wonder whether he can do the same with Takeda or Uesgi;provinces are too far apart.

Cimmerian
04-02-2011, 03:57 PM
Something is fishy here. I play Oda on legendary too. I've tried the horde tactic in my second attempt, i didn't bother to upgrade the economy or to build fleets, i just spawned ashigaru. Fact is i never declared war to anybody, as soon as i destroyed a faction and reached the borders of others they immediately declared war to me. Even my allies betrayed me every time and sent full stacks when i was busy already on two or three fronts. In the beginning that wasn't very hard because they had ashigaru too but after a while despite my multi chevron ashigaru and my six stars generals, it was very hard defeating more than one full stacks of multi chevron katana and bow samurai. And although the ashigaru are cheaper for Oda ,there is so much units you can support with no economy running. When you are fighting on all the borders, when you have to fend of rebellions, you need lots and lots of troops. Date, Uesugi, and another easter clans constantly sent full samurai stacks, sometimes more than one, on all my eastern provinces. That also happened on the western front. In the meanwhile I had no choice but destroy some of my enemies and I've reached realm divide. Nobody traded with me, and since i had no fleets and no money to build one, i had Owari and Izu invaded by the clans that lived on the western islands. In that moment I was invaded from all directions by full stacks of multi chevron samurai, I had almost no money and I had like 4 or 5 stacks of ashigaru and that was still all I could afford. So I decided to start over as obviouslly I was going nowhere.

I tell you, either he was very lucky but i doubt it or it's a thread for April fool's day. He said he betrayed alliances, that meant the Daymio had very low honor and i can't imagine how he managed the inevitable rebellions. Also, you cannot expand very fast, you have to wait a while for the resistance to occupation to drop or face rebellions and i even had +2 because of my Daymio honor.

Varus2319
04-02-2011, 03:57 PM
While it's easy enough to believe what I'm reading here, I do have one question.

How is this fun?

Rastafari_Ken
04-02-2011, 04:11 PM
While it's easy enough to believe what I'm reading here, I do have one question.

How is this fun?

Fun? What is this fun you are talking about? Victory is life.

Rastafari_Ken
04-02-2011, 04:18 PM
Two bulls, one older and the other young, were standing on the top of a hill looking down at the field below them, filled with a herd of heifers.

The young bull said to the older one, "I have an idea. I'm going to run down this hill and have my way with one of those heifers."

The older bull replied, "Go ahead. I am going to walk down the hill and have my way with all of them."

ntwfan
04-02-2011, 04:24 PM
I usually take people at their word when posting on the forum, but the possibility of an April Fool's joke keeps nagging me for this thread. Besides the multi-front wars, besieging fortresses is very costly especially for ashigaru units as I found out in my Oda campaign. I wonder how the OP could sustain such losses and replenish so quickly just like that.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 04:37 PM
...I wonder how the OP could sustain such losses and replenish so quickly just like that.

Don't wait to be replenished, just build new units as Ashigaru requires no building. They can be built anywhere anytime.

Cimmerian
04-02-2011, 04:55 PM
Don't wait to be replenished, just build new units as Ashigaru requires no building. They can be built anywhere anytime.

And money, i suppose, grow on trees... They are cheaper but they are not free. And you can recruit more than one unit per turn in undeveloped provinces.... not. And after that, still win in 8 years on legendary.... Oh, and pigs fly too.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 06:02 PM
And money, i suppose, grow on trees... They are cheaper but they are not free. And you can recruit more than one unit per turn in undeveloped provinces.... not. And after that, still win in 8 years on legendary.... Oh, and pigs fly too.

I think he looted. -2 honor he said he had at the end of the campaign.
I am waiting for him to tell us more about what happend around realm divide.

Even though I believe what he said is not possible with Takeda it is still demoralizing. I scr-aped my 3rd Takeda campaign.

How did he manage his generals with -2 honor?

mmurray821
04-02-2011, 06:06 PM
How did he manage his generals with -2 honor?

Silver or steel.
They will take his money or he will give them 3 feet of steel through the belly.

Cimmerian
04-02-2011, 06:35 PM
I think he looted. -2 honor he said he had at the end of the campaign.
I am waiting for him to tell us more about what happend around realm divide.


If he looted, he had to deal with rebellions and that would have at least slowed him down, so no victory in 8 years. But that negative honor would affect the order in all provinces so he would have to deal with rebellions even in pacified regions. Even so, he could not recruit fast enough since in most provinces you could only recruit one ashigaru pre turn so even if you recruit in all provinces it would take a lot of turns to move them and gather an army.

To me who played three different campaigns with Oda on legendary what he wrote seems like a joke.

Edmon
04-02-2011, 06:39 PM
I just read through this and it seems to be very similar to my own experiences that I listed here:

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/14083-This-game-is-too-easy-even-on-legendary.-Here-is-why.

Ashigaru are the problem. You can just shove tons of them in every territory and expand like crazy on maximum tax, even in legendary. It's easily done.

Cimmerian
04-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Maximum Tax means like -50 to town growth so you'll have no economy soon enough and be bankrupt . Besides you can't even do it as all his cardboard empire will rebel and crumble. A horde empire doesn't last in the game as it didn't last in reality (the Mongol empire) if you don't build you have no future.

And you cannot shove tons of ashigaru. Like i said before, you can usually in the beginning recruit one unit every region per turn, two in the capital, and when all the clans send full stacks almost every turn on you, that is hardly enough. Also even if you recruit ashigaru every turn in all your provinces, it will take lots of turns to gather them and fight on your multiple fronts and so 8 years is hardly possible.

Edmon
04-02-2011, 06:52 PM
Maximum Tax means like -50 to town growth so you'll have no economy soon enough and be bankrupt . Besides you can't even do it as all his cardboard empire will rebel and crumble. A horde empire doesn't last in the game as it didn't last reality (the Mongol empire) if you don't build you have no future.

Have you actually tried it? It seems to me that you've not actually played the game in legendary. Growth was never a problem for me because you are constantly expanding into other clans and on legendary, you will sometimes be offered a chance to loot for 20-30k koku which keeps you going long enough to assault Koyoto and win. Your leader will be high enough in rank by then that you can drop two skill points in honourable and go to town on every clans captial for serious cash with little comeuppance for it.

Edit: The poster above edited to say you cannot recruit enough ashigaru to make this possible. But you very much can because you get the +1 recruitment to all provances perk very early on in all campaigns which lets you pad out your forces. Additionally, once you get 10+ archers in a fort, they become murderiously effective against early game armies.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 07:04 PM
I just experimented with it and the maximum tax gives you -25 growth. If this goes on for 4 years(48 turns)...

ntwfan
04-02-2011, 07:05 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Cimmerian. Oda ashigaru are cheaper but the upkeep still remains significant once you hit your second full stack early in the game assuming you're on a blitz. Without building any economic buildings, it would be quite hard if not impossible to raise more full stacks beyond that apart from looting, which of course brings disorder.

And ashigaru spears are always vulnerable to archers especially when marching against enemy units dug into hilltops, which are abundant natural features in most battle scenarios in Shogun 2. Set them to tight against cavalry and they get decimated by archers. Set them to loose and the same cavalry can slice through them if the charge timing is right.

Let's also not forget that the AI can even the score by recruiting its own ashigaru especially with its money bonuses at harder difficulties. And if you're not Oda, ashigaru are actually not that cheap if you're on an early game blitz.

About the +1 recruitment bonus, I actually got it for like only a turn or two but then it returned to the one recruited unit per turn after that. Strange...

Edmon
04-02-2011, 07:15 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Cimmerian. Oda ashigaru are cheaper but the upkeep still remains significant once you hit your second full stack early in the game assuming you're on a blitz. Without building any economic buildings, it would be quite hard if not impossible to raise more full stacks beyond that apart from looting, which of course brings disorder.

And ashigaru spears are always vulnerable to archers especially when marching against enemy units dug into hilltops, which are abundant natural features in most battle scenarios in Shogun 2. Set them to tight against cavalry and they get decimated by archers. Set them to loose and the same cavalry can slice through them if the charge timing is right.

Let's also not forget that the AI can even the score by recruiting its own ashigaru especially with its money bonuses at harder difficulties. And if you're not Oda, ashigaru are actually not that cheap if you're on an early game blitz.

About the +1 recruitment bonus, I actually got it for like only a few turns but then it returned to the one recruited unit per turn after that. Strange...

You may agree with him, but he is wrong and by extension so are you. Now, admittedly, I did not win in "8 years" like this guy did, I took slightly more than twice as long, but then I got very lazy as the game went on and had to recover from some serious errors I made offensively. Defensively, however, I never lost a terrority I'd taken because the AI is so bad at evicting your ashigaru from castle towns.

So it seems more than possible to me. If you'd like me to supply my profile where I have the "against all odds" achievement, I can do as proof.

Not sure why you expect me to be lying anyway, I want ashigaru nerfed so I can play again with some serious challenge. If you don't think they are all that good and don't use them, why does it matter to you?

Edit: The perk only lasts 4 or 8 seasons, but it's enough to get you going early on for some easy auto-resolve victory shinanagans.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 07:16 PM
Woo, lots of replies to respond to. I think rather than quote specific people, I'll just reply to a few representative posts, but I read all the comments :)


Install Darthmod and then try.. The archer firing angles are bit different now and any archers stationed next to the wall is in pretty good cover from maximum range fire and lot of other tweaks. But holy hell, 8 years to win on legendary. There should be special achievement to obtain if you beat the campaign in 10 years or less.

Defending archers really weren't a problem. There was only a couple of battles in the entire campaign where I took defended walls head on. So a buff to help archers in walls would've actually helped me.


I lost interest in Shogun 2 after reading this thread.

Woah. No way, this game can be played many ways! Don't stop playing just because there's a fast way you don't like! Take it slower and enjoy! I played as Usagi prior to this game, forcing myself to focus on warrior monks. As you also said, deploying experienced troops to central Japan from your more developed areas was a MAJOR pain. I won on about turn 96 or 97, after a very very tough war, if I remember right. A lot slower than Oda, yes!


Just one question, I might be asking a really obvious question, but how are we supposed to know that the campaign you played was legendary? you could be playing easy and we would have to take your word for it.

You don't. Believe me or don't. It doesn't matter to me either way - I'm just sharing an experience I enjoyed, looking to see if other people tried the same thing, and what they make of it. Disbelief is quite an interesting reaction, I wasn't really expecting that one! :)


Something is fishy here. I play Oda on legendary too. I've tried the horde tactic in my second attempt, i didn't bother to upgrade the economy or to build fleets, i just spawned ashigaru. Fact is i never declared war to anybody, as soon as i destroyed a faction and reached the borders of others they immediately declared war to me. Even my allies betrayed me every time and sent full stacks when i was busy already on two or three fronts. In the beginning that wasn't very hard because they had ashigaru too but after a while despite my multi chevron ashigaru and my six stars generals, it was very hard defeating more than one full stacks of multi chevron katana and bow samurai. And although the ashigaru are cheaper for Oda ,there is so much units you can support with no economy running. When you are fighting on all the borders, when you have to fend of rebellions, you need lots and lots of troops. Date, Uesugi, and another easter clans constantly sent full samurai stacks, sometimes more than one, on all my eastern provinces. That also happened on the western front. In the meanwhile I had no choice but destroy some of my enemies and I've reached realm divide. Nobody traded with me, and since i had no fleets and no money to build one, i had Owari and Izu invaded by the clans that lived on the western islands. In that moment I was invaded from all directions by full stacks of multi chevron samurai, I had almost no money and I had like 4 or 5 stacks of ashigaru and that was still all I could afford. So I decided to start over as obviouslly I was going nowhere.

I tell you, either he was very lucky but i doubt it or it's a thread for April fool's day. He said he betrayed alliances, that meant the Daymio had very low honor and i can't imagine how he managed the inevitable rebellions. Also, you cannot expand very fast, you have to wait a while for the resistance to occupation to drop or face rebellions and i even had +2 because of my Daymio honor.


I think he looted. -2 honor he said he had at the end of the campaign.
I am waiting for him to tell us more about what happend around realm divide.

Even though I believe what he said is not possible with Takeda it is still demoralizing. I scr-aped my 3rd Takeda campaign.

How did he manage his generals with -2 honor?

During my initial expansion my Daimyo had 6 honour (I invested skill points to get this fast.) For the mid half of the game I had 5 honour. For the end game I had 4 honour. I broke two alliances through the course of the game, which gave me a -2 trait, taking me to 4 honour. Apologies if my previous posts gave the impression he had -2! I think very bad things would happen at that honour. When I dropped down to 4 honour I lowered my tax rate to compensate.

I didn't loot at all (although perhaps a rush of looting following by a Daimyo suicide would be a technique for an even faster win.)

My initial expansion made judicious use of 'exempt from tax', and I didn't merge any units in the early game - healing units acted as police. I tolerated brief periods of unrest sometimes - a single turn of (low) unrest will not trigger rebellion, just a loss of town value.

It is false to think you cannot expand very fast. I did exactly that. You just have to have enough units, and spend the minimum time possible 'in the field'.

Sake Dens give +2 happiness and +200 commerce. They are a viable alternative to markets in a short game. Building one will effectively free up two military units, if you're in a hurry. I only did then when I really *had* to though, I wanted to save the money for units instead, where I was able to.

I did not waste money on unimportant things like roads.

I have played three legendary Oda campaigns. The first I won on turn 56. The second I lost at about turn 10, when I got way overconfident and lost my Daiymo and Heir. The third was this one. So... Yes, I'd say there is a dose of luck in there. Things ran quite smoothly.


While it's easy enough to believe what I'm reading here, I do have one question.

How is this fun?

It was tons of fun. A great change of pace from the much longer, slower, Uesugi campaign I'd played over the previous two nights. It's boring to play the same way every time, I think you'll agree with that? Both are fun ways to play, in different ways.


Two bulls, one older and the other young, were standing on the top of a hill looking down at the field below them, filled with a herd of heifers.

The young bull said to the older one, "I have an idea. I'm going to run down this hill and have my way with one of those heifers."

The older bull replied, "Go ahead. I am going to walk down the hill and have my way with all of them."

I love that story, it's a good tale. However... My Daimyo read Sun Tzu, and so had done what the two bulls least expected - he'd snuck in and had the herd himself the night before, just to make a point of his own.


I usually take people at their word when posting on the forum, but the possibility of an April Fool's joke keeps nagging me for this thread. Besides the multi-front wars, besieging fortresses is very costly especially for ashigaru units as I found out in my Oda campaign. I wonder how the OP could sustain such losses and replenish so quickly just like that.

Good diplomacy and a careful choice of enemy avoided multi front wars until I was ready for Realm Divide. This, for example, is why I broke treaty to kill Takeda - he was the best target, ally or not. My campaign against him is a good example of how I was able to rampage through. He had about 50 units. When I'd taken the last of his provinces, I'd still only faced 10 of them. I managed to distract the two stacks of 20 each well enough that I never had to face them in battle.


And money, i suppose, grow on trees... They are cheaper but they are not free. And you can recruit more than one unit per turn in undeveloped provinces.... not. And after that, still win in 8 years on legendary.... Oh, and pigs fly too.

I didn't build roads, I didn't upgrade MOST forts. I didn't build markets after the first 10 years. I *did* heavily upgrade the castles, and add Armouries at the places I knew I'd want to recruit from at Realm Divide. You also get a +1 recruitment slots event at the realm divide.

I recruited most of my units at the *castle* and two *fortresses*. I suppose I recruited around 20 units per turn, from the moment I decided I was ready to stop saving up cash and trigger the Realm Divide (I had about 25,000 koku in the bank at this point.) I could've built more than 40 per turn if I'd been willing to train inferior troops at the forts.

ntwfan
04-02-2011, 07:18 PM
You may agree with him, but he is wrong and by extension so are you. Now, admittedly, I did not win in "8 years" like this guy did, I took slightly more than twice as long, but then I got very lazy as the game went on and had to recover from some serious errors I made offensively. Defensively, however, I never lost a terrority I'd taken because the AI is so bad at evicting your ashigaru from castle towns.

So it seems more than possible to me. If you'd like me to supply my profile where I have the "against all odds" achievement, I can do as proof.

Not sure why you expect me to be lying anyway, I want ashigaru nerfed so I can play again with some serious challenge. If you don't think they are all that good and don't use them, why does it matter to you?

No one said you were lying, so why so worked up? I'm just recounting my battle experience and don't apologise for it.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 07:20 PM
Comparing fire power

Oda Bow Ashigaru 30 x 35 x 160 = 168000
Bow Ashigaru 25 x 25 x 160 = 100000
Bow Samurai 40 x 40 x 120 = 192000

Bow Samurai are superior even with fewer men.

In the case of ordinary bow ashigaru it does not even justify the lower upkeep because the battle is pretty much decided within the first 10 volleys.

Edmon
04-02-2011, 07:21 PM
Hey dogthinker, would you agree that ashigaru need some serious attention from the nerf bat? :D

Personnally, I did not find 100% ashigaru 100% of the time very fun :(. I am one of these people that just can't make inferior units for the sake of having them :(.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 07:30 PM
Comparing fire power

Oda Bow Ashigaru 30 x 35 x 160 = 168000
Bow Ashigaru 25 x 25 x 160 = 100000
Bow Samurai 40 x 40 x 120 = 192000

Bow Samurai are superior even with fewer men.

In the case of ordinary bow ashigaru it does not even justify the lower upkeep because the battle is pretty much decided within the first 10 volleys.

Interesting ****ysis! However this doesn't take into account that many 'missed' arrows will actually still hit a target. Firing against massed formations (i.e. most of the time) I'm unconvinced that accuracy is really all that important. Even so, if we use your numbers 'as is', then the bow samurai look like a bad choice compared to the (ridiculously overpowered) Oda Bow Ashigaru, on cost:firepower.

EDIT: The word filter is cruel to us here...


Hey dogthinker, would you agree that ashigaru need some serious attention from the nerf bat? :D

Personnally, I did not find 100% ashigaru 100% of the time very fun :(. I am one of these people that just can't make inferior units for the sake of having them :(.

I strongly agree that ashigaru need a hit from the nerf bat. I think I've posted on this or another thread my suggestions on that note...

1) Oda Ashigaru should be EITHER better OR cheaper than other Ashigaru. Not both.
2) Yari Ashigaru should be a bit weaker (maybe just -1 morale would be enough.)
3) Bow Ashigaru should be removed from the game... Or at least the hidden arrow damage/armour penetration stats should be further reduced for them. Right now pure bow ashigaru roflstomps the AI.

I also think the general's 'Rally' ability needs a major nerf. You shouldn't be able to get Ashigaru units to hold their ground and fight to the death, when they have a direction they can flee in. I don't care how good the general is. They're peasants. You should be using them just to hold enemy units in place for a short time while the REAL killers get into position.

EDIT: I was thinking about your comment about not wanting to build inferior units for the sake it... Choose your clan wisely! In particular, avoid Oda and Chosokabe as both have some exceptional ashigaru units. In my campaign as Uesugi (superior warrior monks) I did still rely very heavily on ashigaru in the first few years, but once I had a temple going at a holy site I found that their warrior monks really seemed to perform very nicely for the money. Reducing the spear ashigaru (and to a lesser extent the bow ashigaru) parts of my army in favour of these excellent monk units felt very 'correct' and I really enjoyed the difference in tactical options they offered me. I probably should've explored the bow monks too! But next comes Shimazu, I think - I want to play a firearms dominated campaign.

Cimmerian
04-02-2011, 07:32 PM
I just experimented with it and the maximum tax gives you -25 growth. If this goes on for 4 years(48 turns)...

I meant tax effect on growth. Depending on the province in Izu i get -69 to growth from taxes if it's set on very high and in others -49, -47 and so on. Of course, this is combined with growth from buildings. On the long term high taxes are very bad and obviously not a solution.

And that perk with +1 recruitment slot last for a few seasons usually 6, it's funny that i got that right now since i've reached realm divide so i can tell. That perk is so rare that it's hardly a thing to take into account.

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/9453/39729878.jpg

Edmon
04-02-2011, 07:33 PM
No one said you were lying, so why so worked up? I'm just recounting my battle experience and don't apologise for it.

Fair enough, do experiment with them a bit more then. It is actually fun for a while to control such huge numbers :).

ntwfan
04-02-2011, 07:40 PM
Fair enough, do experiment with them a bit more then. It is actually fun for a while to control such huge numbers :).

Definitely, I'm far from done with experimenting. I'm still trying to get the hang of this game as I never played the original Shogun TW.

Edmon
04-02-2011, 07:45 PM
Definitely, I'm far from done with experimenting. I'm still trying to get the hang of this game as I never played the original Shogun TW.

Get your hands on a copy of Warhammer: Dark Omen. It is a fantastic game that the total war series borrows very heavily from. It's abandonware now. You will not regret it.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 07:55 PM
And that perk with +1 recruitment slot last for a few seasons usually 6, it's funny that i got that right now since i've reached realm divide so i can tell. That perk is so rare that it's hardly a thing to take into account.

I think I've had that event pop up on Realm Divide in all three of the campaigns where I've played that far, with a duration of 8 seasons. I've also had it come up at about the time I got a certain tech playing as Oda, I think the first spear tech. I got it a THIRD time in this particular campaign, I think it was the turn after I took Kyoto. Before you say 'crazy luck', the three events fired within a few seasons of each other, so I actually got no benefit from any but the one that I think might *always* trigger on the Divide.

Building 20 units per turn (up to 40 if desired,) then this event doesn't need to last for very many seasons at all before you run down your cash stockpiles. I could've lived without it, anyway, I was producing at about half the rate I could've. As I've mentioned, fortresses and castles really churn out a lot of experienced ashigaru.


EDIT: on the topic of 'bow ashigaru are overpowered', here's (http://www.mediafire.com/?1vngl2p7styr79d) the replay of the very first battle after Realm Divide. A force made up exclusively of bow ashigaru (I made the bows first, as I was researching the spear +1 experience tech) ambushes a larger, more balanced force (cavalry, samurai etc.) This is not an example of my normal playstyle. I didn't issue any orders once the first arrows flew, except to my general - I was laughing too hard. The season after this battle my spears started to catch up so I was able to return to a more imaginative style of play.

Yasuri Shichika
04-02-2011, 08:17 PM
It's not a Joke I did the same on legendary although I had more like 15 provinces @ 1551, I took the shogunate with 9000 Yari. After that I got bored and quit

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 08:17 PM
...However this doesn't take into account that many 'missed' arrows will actually still hit a target. Firing against massed formations (i.e. most of the time) I'm unconvinced that accuracy is really all that important.

It may be so in real life but I don't know how this game was set up, CA was never clear about it.
I ran a custom battle experiment Oda bow ashigaru against Samurai bow shoot out.(I got the Samurai because AI may try to melee-fight) And Samurai won. Here there is an armor factor(for which we are not told how the battle mechanic was set up) but the greater number of Ashigaru works in favor of them again.(besides the fire power)

So it is still inconclusive as to which side is more effective by how much.
But just in terms of rate of fire x number of men, bow samurais are better than ordinary ashigaru bow. Whether that is enough to justifiy the cost is another matter.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 08:41 PM
It may be so in real life but I don't know how this game was set up, CA was never clear about it.

Given all the friendly fire I manage, I'm 100% certain that 'misses' are capable of scoring kills.


I ran a custom battle experiment Oda bow ashigaru against Samurai bow shoot out.(I got the Samurai because AI may try to melee-fight) And Samurai won. Here there is an armor factor(for which we are not told how the battle mechanic was set up) but the greater number of Ashigaru works in favor of them again.(besides the fire power)

A worthwhile experiment! Thanks for that. This was even on cost or even on unit count? I'm guessing unit count. The units were in tight formations, yes? Like the melee units you'd actually normally want to actually be firing into?


So it is still inconclusive as to which side is more effective by how much.
But just in terms of rate of fire x number of men, bow samurais are better than ordinary ashigaru bow. Whether that is enough to justifiy the cost is another matter.

Ahh, and there's the killer. To cover their (much) greater cost, double build time, and increased infrastructure requirements, the Samurai archers need to be substantially better than the ashigaru, not just a little better. That should hold true up until the point where you're fielding full stacks everywhere, at which point the cost efficiency of the unit becomes less important in comparison to its raw strength.

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 09:22 PM
... That should hold true up until the point where you're fielding full stacks everywhere, at which point the cost efficiency of the unit becomes less important in comparison to its raw strength.

That is what I am talking about. This game is mostly about the first stack vs the first stack. Reinforcement system is terrible especially if it is the AI that is doing the reinforcement.

In my second Takeda campaign, I was wiping out northeast of Kai with a full stack of Ashigaru and a few Samurai given at the beginning and then I met 2 full stacks of Date armies mostly made of Samurai with armor or melee upgrade from their home province.

So I decided to go in their backdoor and picked up their unprotected home base. And emptied the frontier that Date made. It takes 3 seasons to go from one province to the next so I had time to produce samurai.

I had one huge castle defense and after that Date was destroyed. The point is that the last castle defense required some Katana samurai and cavalry.(I might have pulled off even with just Ashigaru because of the stupid reinforcement system but I think that is a bug)

In short if I have a full stack of Samurai vs 5 stacks of Ashigaru I win.

Dogthinker
04-02-2011, 09:58 PM
In short if I have a full stack of Samurai vs 5 stacks of Ashigaru I win.

Ahh, but if you deploy a full stack of ashigaru against five stacks of samurai, then you get an opportunity to lose in a rather spectacular way ;)


It takes 3 seasons to go from one province to the next

These provinces make me sad. It's the same deal over on the other side of the map with Shimazu, the only thing holding me back from giving them a go (I want to play a gunpowder focused campaign, so they're an obvious choice... But the walking distances look as annoying as they were playing Uesugi.)

Wargamer
04-02-2011, 10:18 PM
Even though one turn in this game represents one season instead of a year or even 4 years in previous TW games it is equally unrealistic. The marching distance per turn represented in this game is equivalent to about 15 days in real life. That is the army marching distance. A messenger can probably cover in a day and half on horseback.

To make things more realistic one should increase the number of turn(like a turn represents a month) and decrease the production rate likewise.( To train Samurai, 12 turns)

Also infantry and cavalry march rates are unrealistic. A cavalry army can march up to 100 miles for a single day, 40 miles persistently while infantry cannot march more than 30 miles for one day and 15 miles persistently.

Apotheosis
04-03-2011, 04:14 AM
I'm inclined to agree with Cimmerian. Oda ashigaru are cheaper but the upkeep still remains significant once you hit your second full stack early in the game assuming you're on a blitz. Without building any economic buildings, it would be quite hard if not impossible to raise more full stacks beyond that apart from looting, which of course brings disorder.

It completely kills me that nobody seems to get this.

Economic buildings in this game do not improve your economy. Once you get past Market, the buildings are so expensive and take so long to pay for themselves that they are completely unrealistic as options to improve your economy. Upgrading a couple buildings costs the same as an entire stack of 20 ashigaru units. Even worse, the buildings that consume food actually DIMINISH your economy, not improve it.


And ashigaru spears are always vulnerable to archers especially when marching against enemy units dug into hilltops, which are abundant natural features in most battle scenarios in Shogun 2. Set them to tight against cavalry and they get decimated by archers. Set them to loose and the same cavalry can slice through them if the charge timing is right.

Too bad the battle AI is too stupid to do that.


Let's also not forget that the AI can even the score by recruiting its own ashigaru especially with its money bonuses at harder difficulties. And if you're not Oda, ashigaru are actually not that cheap if you're on an early game blitz.

But it doesn't. The AI wastes money on buildings, which is why it loses.


About the +1 recruitment bonus, I actually got it for like only a turn or two but then it returned to the one recruited unit per turn after that. Strange...

It says it lasts 4 or 8 turns when you get it. I guess if your game is broken, you probably can't play the same as everyone else.

MidnightInsomnia
04-03-2011, 05:38 AM
Even though one turn in this game represents one season instead of a year or even 4 years in previous TW games it is equally unrealistic. The marching distance per turn represented in this game is equivalent to about 15 days in real life. That is the army marching distance. A messenger can probably cover in a day and half on horseback.

To make things more realistic one should increase the number of turn(like a turn represents a month) and decrease the production rate likewise.( To train Samurai, 12 turns)

Also infantry and cavalry march rates are unrealistic. A cavalry army can march up to 100 miles for a single day, 40 miles persistently while infantry cannot march more than 30 miles for one day and 15 miles persistently.

I noticed that too. The marching distance of armies in Shogun 2 is EXTREMELY unrealistic.

A trained army can march 25 km a day. 30 days in a month. 3 months in a season. 25 x 30 x 3 = 2250 km.

2250 km can cover more than half of Japan if you march in a straight line. Yes, Japan is an very tiny country.

Wargamer
04-03-2011, 07:08 AM
2250 km can cover more than half of Japan.

The whole of Japan except Hokkaido is less than 2000 km.

Cavalry should be able to march about 3 times as much as infantry.
Horses are built very differently and can trot(equivalent to light jogging for humans) for many hours.
It is about 8 miles/hour. Just doing 4 hours a day with much rest between(walking is a rest for horses) will get you more than 50 miles per day.

horses
walking 4 miles/hour
trot 8 miles/hour
canter 10-17 miles/hour
gallop 25 -30 and above

trot for 3 hours and walk for 5 hours and we have 48 miles per day.

GuardianOfBlind
04-03-2011, 09:37 AM
Dogthinker, you wrote you kept good doplomacy to avoid multi frontal wars, but if it is so, either you were very lucky or you did not play on Legendary. I find diplomacy to be absolutely broken.
It was going quite smooth for taking first 7 provinces, I noticed that as long as you fight 1-3 clans, Legendary is not that hard.
But problem is, anyone I meet declares war 1-2 turns after I meet them, with no reason.
The whole thing reminds me of realm divide, you need to either ally with them immediately or will get attacked. Even friendly factions who have same enemies as me, attack 2-3 turns after meeting. Even Shoni and Amako who live on other island and have no point being at war with me, attacked immediately.
And if I ally someone, they just drag me into more wars. At the moment already am at war with 9 clans and attacked from all sides.

Another thing you wrote is you exempt regions from tax after taking them to lower unrest. Everyone does that, but even with no taxes and having garrison in town, recently taken towns sometimes have negative public order. So they need few turns to recover, and quite many turns till they can start generating taxes themselves. I find that in rapid expansion new towns eat resources instead of providing them, as they need army in to not rebel but give no taxes.
Now on Normal or Hard difficulty it is possible to have tactic: take settlement, exempt from tax, move on with same stack.
On Legendary I find that this slowing me a lot, as I either need to build new units in home provinces and spend few years taking them to frontline over roads that I have no upgraded, or wait.

Would like to hear your advice about this.
My only idea for now is to restart the campaign and try playing without encountering new clans for as long as possible (they don't attack if they don't know me), and fighting only the 3-4 which are near me.

ntwfan
04-03-2011, 10:00 AM
It completely kills me that nobody seems to get this.

Economic buildings in this game do not improve your economy. Once you get past Market, the buildings are so expensive and take so long to pay for themselves that they are completely unrealistic as options to improve your economy. Upgrading a couple buildings costs the same as an entire stack of 20 ashigaru units. Even worse, the buildings that consume food actually DIMINISH your economy, not improve it.
Yes they do. Having some economy is better than none.



Too bad the battle AI is too stupid to do that.
No, the AI actually did that on me.



But it doesn't. The AI wastes money on buildings, which is why it loses.
No, the AI knows how to recruit units and on harder difficulties, it will use its money bonus to make your life more miserable.


It says it lasts 4 or 8 turns when you get it. I guess if your game is broken, you probably can't play the same as everyone else.
I'll have to play and observe more to see if it's broken, hopefully not.

Cimmerian
04-03-2011, 11:12 AM
...

In other words that's exactly what I've wrote before I this thread after my experience playing Oda on legendary.

My advices on how Oda should be played on legendary without relying too much on the exploits (bow ashigaru and autoresolve) that will be addressed anyway soon enough in a patch:

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/13817-Oda-clan-is-hard!

On his screen-shot we see he never built any fleets, so maybe he won the game but at that very same time many invasion fleets filled with samurai stacks were heading for his shores and he had nothing to defeat those fleets with so his empire was going to crumble to dust soon enough. Not mentioning that he probably had many rebellions coming. So his Oda had his seconds of glory but that's it.

Anyway, after the future patches, Dogthinker's method will most likely be a recipe for a quick defeat if it isn't already.

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 03:06 PM
Dogthinker, you wrote you kept good doplomacy to avoid multi frontal wars, but if it is so, either you were very lucky or you did not play on Legendary. I find diplomacy to be absolutely broken.
It was going quite smooth for taking first 7 provinces, I noticed that as long as you fight 1-3 clans, Legendary is not that hard.
But problem is, anyone I meet declares war 1-2 turns after I meet them, with no reason.
The whole thing reminds me of realm divide, you need to either ally with them immediately or will get attacked. Even friendly factions who have same enemies as me, attack 2-3 turns after meeting. Even Shoni and Amako who live on other island and have no point being at war with me, attacked immediately.
And if I ally someone, they just drag me into more wars. At the moment already am at war with 9 clans and attacked from all sides.

Another thing you wrote is you exempt regions from tax after taking them to lower unrest. Everyone does that, but even with no taxes and having garrison in town, recently taken towns sometimes have negative public order. So they need few turns to recover, and quite many turns till they can start generating taxes themselves. I find that in rapid expansion new towns eat resources instead of providing them, as they need army in to not rebel but give no taxes.
Now on Normal or Hard difficulty it is possible to have tactic: take settlement, exempt from tax, move on with same stack.
On Legendary I find that this slowing me a lot, as I either need to build new units in home provinces and spend few years taking them to frontline over roads that I have no upgraded, or wait.

Would like to hear your advice about this.
My only idea for now is to restart the campaign and try playing without encountering new clans for as long as possible (they don't attack if they don't know me), and fighting only the 3-4 which are near me.

Note. My first Oda campaign - 56 turns without trying to go fast. My third Oda campaign, 34 turns when trying to go fast. If I'm 'just lucky', then I've been lucky two times out of three. Some other possible explanations are that I play my diplomacy shrewdly, or that Oda ashigaru are so OP that it doesn't matter.

My advice on happiness in the early game is: get your Daimyo to 6 honour asap, for a +2 happiness bonus. Use exempt taxes to help you advance forces faster when needed. Consider putting down a sake den immediately in any province that starts with an unusually high resistance to invaders. Don't let rebellions start, they have a cumulative negative effect on happiness that'll slow you down even more. Get two metsuke early, they can each do the job of one unit (wait to get the last three for when you have a +exp building.) SPAM ASHIGARU, and don't merge injured units in early game - even an ashigaru with only 5 men can repress one unhappy citizen.

It's easy to conquer and hold the first two provinces (taking you to three.) Your third conquest will be slightly delayed because of dealing with happiness. After this the delays shrink, because you're training SO MANY BANE////higaru.

Once I got to around 30-40 units of ashigaru, I stopped spamming them. I still built small numbers, to maintain happiness while the main force pressed onwards, but my focus was on saving money and on developing the castles in the three provinces that would be my production zones. This was enough to conquer Hojo, then Takeda.


In other words that's exactly what I've wrote before I this thread after my experience playing Oda on legendary.

My advices on how Oda should be played on legendary without relying too much on the exploits (bow ashigaru and autoresolve) that will be addressed anyway soon enough in a patch:

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/13817-Oda-clan-is-hard!

On his screen-shot we see he never built any fleets, so maybe he won the game but at that very same time many invasion fleets filled with samurai stacks were heading for his shores and he had nothing to defeat those fleets with so his empire was going to crumble to dust soon enough. Not mentioning that he probably had many rebellions coming. So his Oda had his seconds of glory but that's it.

Anyway, after the future patches, Dogthinker's method will most likely be a recipe for a quick defeat if it isn't already.

Could you link to the patch change list please, I haven't seen one yet. I'll be very happy if they're nerfing ashigaru, that is a desired outcome from this thread. If they nerf ahisgaru significantly then I will attempt this campaign again, to see if they have successfully made this strategy difficult, instead of Oda being probably the easiest campaign. The other thing that'd greatly weaken this approach, is if they drastically improve the defensive siege AI, and alter the forts in some way so that it's not trivial to take the first and second level forts undamaged (undamaged being a key factor to assisting with happiness) using just a single unit of archers.

No offence intended, but it's no surprise to me that you find Oda hard if your strategy involves moving on from ashigaru as fast as you can. If you play Oda you're SUPPOSED to rely very heavily on Ashigaru. If you want to emphasise naginata infantry, for example, then I suggest you play a clan with traits that encourage naginata infantry, like Uesugi. Not Oda.

EDIT: I really like your 'isolated' vassals strategy, that's a really great idea in a longer campaign. Realm divide seems to turn even Vassals upon you, but you could make quite a profit in trade in the mean time, especially if you're not playing a short campaign (longer campaign types lets you take more provinces before your fame gets high enough to trigger the Realm Divide, from what I've read.)

It's not necessary to build fleets in this game. At all. You don't need to kill fleets, they can't hurt you. You can do plenty of trade overland, so it's not essential to have or protect naval trade lanes. You just have to be able to kill the stacks that they drop behind your front line. That's very easy to do. There were no rebellions coming, the empire was at 0+ happiness 99% of the time.

Would you like me to continue my (won) campaign? I could continue on to conquer Japan with pure ashigaru for you if you like. It won't be quite a conquest at quite the same pace, since I would mostly autoresolve to save my play time, rather than playing everything on the battle map to get the best results.



A few posts have been talking about economy. The basic marketplace will repay it's cost after about 10 turns. That same investment could've been used to get one more (Oda) ashigaru AND cover it's upkeep for the same 10 turns. If you are playing aggressively, the return on investment of that ashigaru will be greater than the marketplace.

The first five marketplaces have a better return on investment, because they are each getting you room for one metsuke - and metsuke are extremely profitable when placed in your best provinces.

One of the things that lead me to trying out this approach, was reading economic studies on the cost benefits of the marketplace chain of buildings. People were talking about how a certain building on the chain might offer a small benefit after 100+ turns. One hundred turns, to see an investment break even. 25 years. It struck me immediately that the opportunity cost of an expensive long term investment like that is huge. So I tried a game where I didn't invest in anything that would take much longer than 10 turns to pay off.

Note that I was taking the same approach with roads, and ports. Why build a road or a harbour, when the cost is roughly equivalent to having one more military unit and maintaining it for it's first 10 turns?

If I played in this style again, I'd probably build more Sake Dens though. Their +2 happiness would give a great return on their cost, up until the point a province no longer needs an army to maintain happiness.

Cimmerian
04-03-2011, 04:43 PM
No offence intended, but it's no surprise to me that you find Oda hard if your strategy involves moving on from ashigaru as fast as you can. If you play Oda you're SUPPOSED to rely very heavily on Ashigaru. If you want to emphasise naginata infantry, for example, then I suggest you play a clan with traits that encourage naginata infantry, like Uesugi. Not Oda.

Who told you I find Oda hard?

I found it to be very frustrating when I used only ashigaru. I abandoned two campaigns with Oda although they weren't lost just because I didn't liked the way things were going with having to face, especially after RD, full stacks of experienced samurai with only ashigaru.

Now, my third attempt, after I've experimented and refined my strategy, I enjoy my every battle and facing ashigaru stacks with my 22 to melee attack naginata (24 for my Daimyo who has Legendary Naginatajutsu Master) it's simply carnage although lately I face mostly full samurai stacks which aren't themselves much of a resistance. Oh, and my empire is rock solid with 6 full stacks of half naginata/half bow ashigaru, crowding the western front near Kyoto after conquering all the east Japan. In the same, two full fleets plus the Black Ship, protect my shores while other two fleets guard the trade spots and bully the western clans.

I'm very sure the actual strategy i'm playing is the best one. In fact it's so successful i kinda lost interest since there not much of a challenge anymore.

By the way, telling me that to use the best over all infantry in the game (naginata) is reserved for when playing Uesugi is kind of funny.

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 05:13 PM
Who told you I find Oda hard?

It was the title of your thread.


I found it to be very frustrating when I used only ashigaru. I abandoned two campaigns with Oda although they weren't lost just because I didn't liked the way things were going with having to face, especially after RD, full stacks of experienced samurai with only ashigaru.

Now, my third attempt, after I've experimented and refined my strategy, I enjoy my every battle and facing ashigaru stacks with my 22 to melee attack naginata (24 for my Daimyo who has Legendary Naginatajutsu Master) it's simply carnage although lately I face mostly full samurai stacks which aren't themselves much of a resistance. Oh, and my empire is rock solid with 6 full stacks of half naginata/half bow ashigaru, crowding the western front near Kyoto after conquering all the east Japan. In the same, two full fleets plus the Black Ship, protect my shores while other two fleets guard the trade spots and bully the western clans.

I'm very sure the actual strategy i'm playing is the best one. In fact it's so successful i kinda lost interest since there not much of a challenge anymore.

By the way, telling me that to use the best over all infantry in the game (naginata) is reserved for when playing Uesugi is kind of funny.

Ahh, I understand you better now. Yes, if the game goes long enough you start facing all-samurai stacks, then even as Oda you're pushing your luck to keep using pure ashigaru armies. Over the long term, the strategy you are pursing is valid for all clans.

My Oda games don't last long enough to reach that point. There is simply no reason for me to invest in stronger units, since the game is won with this strategy well before they are needed. If the advance stalled due to unit quality (it didn't) then sitting back to defend would give ample time to tech switch into samurai (naginata being the obvious choice, since they benefit from the same spear research that yari ashigaru do.)

If I define 'best' as winning quickly and easily, I would be happy to claim that using Oda Ashigaru is 'best'. I am certain that my approach is repeatable, indeed, I think I would win even faster if I attempted it again. I happened to enjoy playing like that too. I also enjoy playing strategies like yours as well, and my next campaign will be a slow one.

I didn't mean 'never use naginata' unless Uesugi. I meant 'if you want to focus your strategy around this unit then use a clan that suits that'. Playing Oda when you dislike using ashigaru just seems like scoring an own goal.

Dalkar
04-03-2011, 05:30 PM
He might be playing Oda for the great starting position. For me that's my favourite part of playing Oda and the Ashi bonus is handy but I still use more Samurai than Ashigaru about 20 turns into the campaign.

Cimmerian
04-03-2011, 05:48 PM
It was the title of your thread.

It wasn't my thread i just added some advices there.

As for why i played Oda? It's not for the ashigaru whom I despise since the first Shogun when their cowardice caused chain reactions that ruined entire battles. I chose Oda because i like a challenge. I played Chosokabe and Date on Legendary and found it to be so easy that I decided to go for a clan surrounded by enemies in the center of Japan. Still I use bow ashigaru who are even better (in fact overpowered) than the great crossbow ashigaru from Mongolian Invasion so Oda bonuses are still very useful.

BTW what is the most difficult clan to play with out there?

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 05:51 PM
He might be playing Oda for the great starting position. For me that's my favourite part of playing Oda and the Ashi bonus is handy but I still use more Samurai than Ashigaru about 20 turns into the campaign.

I think I'd try Tokugawa if I wanted to start there but planned to transition away from Ashigaru quickly. That way you're working with diplomacy bonus instead of diplomacy penalty (although I think the penalty might be badly bugged, in which case Oda remains better, unless you want to experiment with early kisho ninja.)

Dalkar
04-03-2011, 05:52 PM
I'd say the most difficult is Tokugawa. You're stuck under the Imagawa who you have to attack and smash the hornet's nest of the Imagawa/Hojo/Takeda alliance.

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 05:59 PM
It wasn't my thread i just added some advices there.

My apologies, I misread.


As for why i played Oda, it's not for the ashigaru whom I despise since the first Shogun when their cowardice caused chain reactions that ruined entire battles. I chose Oda because i like a challenge. I played Chosokabe and Date on Legendary and found it to be so easy that I decided to go for a clan surrounded by enemies in the center of Japan. Still I use bow ashigaru who are even better (in fact overpowered) than the great crossbow ashigaru from Mongolian Invasion so Oda bonuses are still very useful.

BTW what is the most difficult clan to play with out there?

I don't know, I haven't tried many of them. It was a lot of fun figuring out a fast start for Uesugi (you can take the gold mine island in 5 turns, but you have to play near perfectly in both campaign and battle map to do it.) I just know that Oda must be the easiest by far, with great income, so many juicy targets and a massive early game advantage due to it's superior AND cheaper ashigaru... It even has fantastic starting diplomacy, despite the (probably bugged) trait. If you kill the province above you on the first turn, it's possible to get four or five trade agreements very quickly.

For me, with my play style, I expect Mori would be difficult - since I avoid building much/any navy, and that's their speciality, so I wouldn't benefit much from that. I think there's a gold mine around there somewhere though.

Shimazu and Date look like very slow starts, due to the huge distances, but if you're patient they should be almost trivially easy.

Takeda could be tough - like Oda it also starts out surrounded, but has an emphasis on cavalry. This could be challenging in the early game given the popularity of yari ashigaru and the heavy upkeep cost of a cavalry dominated force. Or... It might be very easy - with your cavalry picking off their generals early in every battle, then chain routing their armies with charges.


Oh... And I LOVED the ashigaru in the first Shogun, specifically because of the way they loved to rout. Playing Oda was fantastic fun then, you had to play so perfectly, especially since some of the nearby provinces had warrior monks defending them. Ashigaru vs Monk was a much tougher prospect then, than it is now. They can't rout now, with the general's magical superpowers to help them.

Vinchester
04-03-2011, 06:11 PM
Gee, thanks Dogthinker for your very long, careful replies.

This thread has inspired me to try a fast Oda campaign (on VH tho) I am now at turn 20 with 11 provinces. I think I'm considerably slower than what you did in your 34-turn epicness. At this time I face 3 stacks of Takeda at my doorstep. AIs start to field 6-7 samurai units in their armies, which is quite a handful for my ashigarus.

My problem is that the Hattori backstabbed me (even with our "friendly" relationship!). After securing my first 5 provinces I planned on blitzing Hojo and takeda, but had to finish off the Hattori first, and somehow everyone are "Unfriendly" to me. Guess I should have ask for the trade agreement in the first turn. I think I'm gonna rollback a bit and try to be more careful. However this business of manually defending using the same units every **** turn is a bit tiring!

One question then, You recruit 20 Ashigarus every turn!? Then you must have like 4 castles then! At this early stage of the game where I try to recruit ashigaru stacks and managing happiness, I find saving up money to upgrade castles very hard to do..

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 06:35 PM
Gee, thanks Dogthinker for your very long, careful replies.

This thread has inspired me to try a fast Oda campaign (on VH tho) I am now at turn 20 with 11 provinces. I think I'm considerably slower than what you did in your 34-turn epicness. At this time I face 3 stacks of Takeda at my doorstep. AIs start to field 6-7 samurai units in their armies, which is quite a handful for my ashigarus.

My problem is that the Hattori backstabbed me (even with our "friendly" relationship!). After securing my first 5 provinces I planned on blitzing Hojo and takeda, but had to finish off the Hattori first, and somehow everyone are "Unfriendly" to me. Guess I should have ask for the trade agreement in the first turn. I think I'm gonna rollback a bit and try to be more careful. However this business of manually defending using the same units every **** turn is a bit tiring!

One question then, You recruit 20 Ashigarus every turn!? Then you must have like 4 castles then! At this early stage of the game where I try to recruit ashigaru stacks and managing happiness, I find saving up money to upgrade castles very hard to do..

Never trust the Hattori... I don't have the game open now, but I'm pretty sure they have the personality trait 'treacherous'.

Trade agreements on turn 1 help a lot, and have no real down side that I can see. Alliances are more of a gamble, because of the way they can negatively relations with other clans, and the risk you'll be asked to join a defensive war, but are definitely worth considering. When Takeda offered me one I accepted without a second thought - I was about to declare war on his ally the Hojo, so I figured this'd make him less likely to join in. I was right, although it backfired somewhat when I then had to take a penalty to honour when the time came to take his lands. Don't hesitate to pay small bribes if it'll get you a trade agreement (small as in, will pay off from the trade within a few turns.)

Also, note that the AI does at least appear to care whether your border is protected or not. Keeping a small force garrisoning your 'safe' borders seems to be worthwhile. Even if it doesn't reduce the chance of war, at least it'll mean you'll probably be able to hold out if you get rushed.

I don't recall which turn I restarted ashigaru production (at about 20 per turn,) but this was out of 1 castle (the capital,) 2 fortresses (the nearby province with stone, and Imagawa's province that had a blacksmith,) and a few extras just from basic forts in areas where I needed troops fast.

Prior to realm divide, my army upkeep was something like 2500 and covered entirely by trade and clan income. My taxes were around 7000, and were pure profit. Getting the capital upgraded was tricky to find funds for, but I considered that essential to my survival. When it was time to start upgrading the other two (about 5 turns after starting on the capital's upgrades) the money was flowing in from my gold mine (with 3 upgraded metsuke stacked on it.) Note that I try to ensure the bulk of my army is commanded by the commisioner for finance, and I use the Inspirational skill to reduce upkeep further.

Vinchester
04-03-2011, 06:50 PM
Thanks for your answer! I had eradicated the Hattori already :D but their ally the Shogunate is now at war with me (tho I doubt they ever come out of their border)

At turn 20 that 2.5 stacks of Takeda is now attacking my fort. I do have 4-star general and a full stack/full strength ashigaru garrison, but have no idea how to survive that much invaders especially when they have 10 bow ashigarus firing into my fort! I can't just sit inside and take hits form the bow, if I send out my ashigarus I could kill the archers but will have to face samurais and cavalry. :(

That said, I think I'm gonna restart. I find this mad rush to be extremely fun because I dont have to fight enemy's fancy units!

So you usually spam ashigarus then have a good general to lead them then autoresolve? I'd love to do that as well...

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 06:57 PM
Thanks for your answer! I had eradicated the Hattori already :D but their ally the Shogunate is now at war with me (tho I doubt they ever come out of their border)

I have never seen the Shoguns troops leave their border.


At turn 20 that 2.5 stacks of Takeda is now attacking my fort. I do have 4-star general and a full stack/full strength ashigaru garrison, but have no idea how to survive that much invaders especially when they have 10 bow ashigarus firing into my fort! I can't just sit inside and take hits form the bow, if I send out my ashigarus I could kill the archers but will have to face samurais and cavalry. :(

That said, I think I'm gonna restart. I find this mad rush to be extremely fun because I dont have to fight enemy's fancy units!

So you usually spam ashigarus then have a good general to lead them then autoresolve? I'd love to do that as well...

To siege defend against an archer heavy force, using melee troops, I find the solution is to crowd your force into the far side of your fort, so the archers have to climb the walls to get in range (might not be possible if they deploy on all sides.) If you have any bows of your own, be aware that archers deployed 'in' the wall seem to be about twice as effective as those outside, so you might be fine anyway.

I avoid autoresolve except for battles that would be boring to play (i.e. 2:1 odds in my favour.)

ClaymanVTW
04-03-2011, 08:05 PM
this thread makes me feel like a total noob.... lol

Kript
04-03-2011, 10:37 PM
It wasn't my thread i just added some advices there.

As for why i played Oda? It's not for the ashigaru whom I despise since the first Shogun when their cowardice caused chain reactions that ruined entire battles. I chose Oda because i like a challenge. I played Chosokabe and Date on Legendary and found it to be so easy that I decided to go for a clan surrounded by enemies in the center of Japan. Still I use bow ashigaru who are even better (in fact overpowered) than the great crossbow ashigaru from Mongolian Invasion so Oda bonuses are still very useful.

BTW what is the most difficult clan to play with out there?

I'd say Hojo have the most useless bonuses. They are also faced with a rather tough starting position in terms of ability to defend home territories while expanding. Id love them to be good, but sadly they just arent. Uesegi is also quite challenging imo. Off the cuff:

Oda
Cho
Shim
Mori
Date
Takeda
Tokugawa
Uesegi
Hojo

Mori might surprise people but - economically, I'd say the Mori can probably build the greatest overall net income by late game with control of trade nodes and large trading partners.

GuardianOfBlind
04-03-2011, 10:50 PM
Ok, so I did several tests with Oda Legendary, and got to say that diplomacy is absolute gamble. Like, some clans who are worth allying will sometimes be faithful allies, sometimes backstab, sometimes get destroyed early so does not matter.
Its all about guessing which are the right ones at each game to work with. Except one thing - never trust the Hattori scum!
So here, some of my experience.

Expansion direction:

I see some say that you should go East, but I find it difficult. The campaings in which I launched invasion at Takeda and allied myself with the small western factions near Kyoto, did not end so well. After taking out Takeda, there are still there allies Hojo, who will attack sooner or later, but mostly sooner. After that, Uesugi and Shoni are bound to attack, even though I destroy their natural enemies. It is an endless grind towards east involving most of the armies.
And by this time, small western clans have fallen to Hattori who are now able to go at Owari with 2 full stacks easily. This happened twice, so I think it is very likely to happen. Ends as a war on all fronts.

Going west. Works better at least as far as I have tested. In first turns, ally and trade with whoever can. But once meet Takeda/Hojo, ally with them and keep this alliance over any other. Takeda will most likely agree to ally after exchangeing hostage, Hojo will not be so eager, but after few turns and relationship rise, they will. Both these factions are strong enough to hold anything that comes from east for some time. This is the only tactic which has prevented me from 2 front war this far.

As for the very start of the campaign, it can be done the way that was written. Take Saito out in the first turn, take out Tokugawa in 2nd or 3rd, then go to Imagawa.
But, it is also possible to make peace with Saito, make trade with them and alliance too. Advantages - don't have to face western factions early, can go at Tokugawa with full force, not splitting it. Which is good, cause after taking out Tokugawa, Imagawa always has an army that they will use immediately to take Tokugawa land back.

So most successfull campaign this far:
Ally with Saito and trade/ally with as many western clans as can. Wait for rebbels to attack and wipe them out, meanwhile recruiting ashigaru. After that, go with full force at Tokugawa ignoring the stack they have in my land, as it will disappear. Defend against Imagawa counterattack. Then go defeat them ignoring any other their stacks.
With Imagawa and Tokugawa gone, allied with Takeda/Hojo and went back west to deal with Hattori threat. At this time, Takeda started attacking my small western allies, including Saito, but I sticked with Takeda, and took Saito now.
Having my starting enemies gone, lands near Kyoto being mine and Takeda and Hojo watching my back, this campaign should go smoothly further.

Also, I think it is worth upgrading forts/castles in key provinces for free garrison units, faster replenish rate and faster recruitment rate. If this is about Ashigaru spam, it is better to spam 3 units per turn, not 1.

Visor
04-04-2011, 12:47 AM
You can see what personality they have in the diplomacy tab and selecting the fraction as well as how honourable they are.

Cimmerian
04-04-2011, 06:56 AM
After Imagawa is finished, I prefer taking Hojo lands. There is that gold mine there (Izu) that is of utmost importance and also the region with the blacksmith. Place a metsuke (or more) in Izu and if it's upgraded to mining complex you'll be swimming in koku :)

Also there are close, as you go east, some other regions that have good specialties. In one of them you can build a Master Bowmaker so your Bow units will be even more lethal.

Hattori are treacherous that's why you should upgrade the stronghold in Owari and keep enough troops to face one or even two stacks or resist enough for reinforcements to arrive. But as long as they are at war with Takeda and you have troops in Owari they wouldn't dare.

Aubor
04-04-2011, 07:53 AM
how?

The AI typically has one large stack army. If you can engage and smash it, you can gobble up his territory quickly if you don't mind having zero taxes for a short term. The only thing that slows me down when I play them is religious differences. Taking over Christian or Ikko-bhudists become a nuisance at times.

Oda is super easy. Almost as easy as Chosokabe in my experience. But still....8 years is pretty ****ed fast. I never pushed that hard. lol

Aubor
04-04-2011, 08:19 AM
[QUOTE=Dogthinker;159432These provinces make me sad. It's the same deal over on the other side of the map with Shimazu, the only thing holding me back from giving them a go (I want to play a gunpowder focused campaign, so they're an obvious choice... But the walking distances look as annoying as they were playing Uesugi.)[/QUOTE]


Compared to Oda it is a long long way to walk but honestly you can push through the initial island rather quickly. Its only really one or two provinces with long roads. The rest are kind of compact. And once you take the island you can steamroll through the mainland with that little land channel.

The thing I like about the Shimazu is the proximity to those trade spots. Getting three of those locked down really makes it laughable.

Early gunpowder though would be a tough long campaign because then you would have to deal with the religion factor and that takes many turns to resolve on tax exempt and in the meantime you make no money. I've never tried it but I know what its like from the opposite point of view pushing through the Shino who seem to always choose to be Christian.