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Koujjo
04-03-2011, 03:53 PM
Was wondering if anyone could point me to any beginners guides for Shogun2 that address sieges. I'm having trouble defending against the AI when they hit me with tons of archers. Seems like there's nowhere safe to park my general and my whole army just gets whittled down to nothing. Any tips, videos or written guides you can point me to? Thanks.

Face-sploder
04-03-2011, 04:29 PM
simple, defending archers ALWAYS beat attacking ones in equal numbers and rank. you have your fort which provides not only a morale boost but also protects your archers if they are right up to the fort wall. You should be able to whittle down the enemy army until they decide its time to scale the walls, then simply pull them out and bring in some high morale units (monks are HIGHLY recommended for this step) and the half of them that survive the climb will get killed by the monks who just refuse to retreat. take the time the monks gave you to whittle down the enemy army yourself and then you can simply turtle inside your castle with your melee units until the enemies numbers are very small and they are unable to fight.

Michael5188
04-03-2011, 04:44 PM
I've actually wondered this myself. The above post is nice and all, but while my archers are shooting theirs, they're often aiming at my melee troops within the walls. Often times multiple regiments get whittled down to less than half by their archers before I route them. And of course if I bring anything out to attack the archers I lose my advantage. Is there some strategy to minimize your casualties before the melee begins, and their archers are just shooting into your fort?

If their army is majority archers, is it recommended to actually bring your troops outside the walls and make it hand to hand?

Maurice76
04-03-2011, 04:49 PM
This is with regards to you sieging the castle:

- Try and position your own archers in such a way that you can shoot the enemy archers (those that are up against a wall) in the back;

- If you end up in a shootout with enemy archers (not up against the wall) and you have no other choice rather than to "sit it through", try to have superior numbers. That way, you make more casualties than they can;

- I've noticed that if I move close to the walls and there is one or more enemy archer unit roaming inside (in other words, not against the wall), and then move back again, the archer unit will sally forth and leave the safety of the castle as it goes in pursuit. Try to make your close approach on a side that's not being guarded by enemy archers on the wall and use a fast unit (that doesn't hide when inactive) like a cavalry unit for this;

- Use fire arrows to knock out enemy towers. This is just a chance, so you may need to do this more than once and/or with more archer units: click your fire arrow ability and have them shoot the tower. If lucky, it will be set ablaze and burn down in no time. I suggest using a hit-and-run tactic for this one; run your archers up to it, shoot, run back out of range. Note: for some odd reason, the best position to stand and shoot the tower seems to depend on the angle of your approach. Sometimes archers will shoot at nearly max range, at other times they will run up to about the base of the wall before shooting (and taking a load of casualties due to tower fire in the mean time). It's a bit of trial and error to figure out the sweet spots for each tower where your archers stay at about max range when they shoot. That's a player experience thing, for the most part.

With regards to defending:

- Set all your archers up against the walls towards the enemy army. Usually he comes from multiple angles, so spread them around;

- Withdraw them from the walls shortly before the enemy climbs into your courtyard and send in melees instead to engage in a straigth up melee battle;

- If your melee units inside are getting peppered by enemy archers, move them to the other side of the courtyard. If you have archers on all sides ... tough luck, I guess. As an option, you might want to sally forth (preferably cavalry, otherwise melee units) towards a weak spot in his army line-up to quickly shatter the units on that side, so the courtyard on that side becomes pretty much a safe zone.

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 04:57 PM
I've actually wondered this myself. The above post is nice and all, but while my archers are shooting theirs, they're often aiming at my melee troops within the walls. Often times multiple regiments get whittled down to less than half by their archers before I route them. And of course if I bring anything out to attack the archers I lose my advantage. Is there some strategy to minimize your casualties before the melee begins, and their archers are just shooting into your fort?

If their army is majority archers, is it recommended to actually bring your troops outside the walls and make it hand to hand?

If you have a reasonable number of archers, you're probably better off staying inside the fort. An archer garrisoned 'in' the wall is worth two outside it, in my experience. To minimise melee casualties, shift to loose formation, and spread your troops as best you can. Keep your most valuable units at the far side of the castle, so your (well spread out) yari ashigaru take most of the hits.

The best unit to keep in position as target practice for the enemy archers, are your garrison units, since they will be replaced for free after the battle ;)

If they have vastly more archers than you, consider retreating everything to the far side of the castle. Rather than walking around, the enemy archers will scale the walls to try to get in range of you. Once about half their army are inside or scaling the wall, then rush forward with your melee and try to rout them. You will probably suffer horrific casualties in the process. If you expect to win, don't forget to pull back near-dead units. If a unit falls below 5 men it will be eliminated after the battle. They will not rout to disengage themselves, like they would in a normal battle, so you have to do this for them.

If they're pure archer, and you're pure melee, then yes, you're probably better off taking them on the open field. You're in big trouble though. Keep just enough in the castle to stop them entering, while the rest of your army swamp each section of the attacking force in turn. This is very risky - your armies can rout from the field if they are not inside the castle (in larger castles, they need to be in the innermost section to get this buff.)

Genius
04-03-2011, 05:01 PM
IGNORE their archer until u wipe out all their melee armies in the fort...
(and i think its even better if they crawling ur fort AFTER their out of ammo)

if u have two Cavalry, its will enough too charge them :D
(even if u againts bow samurai, if u smart enough)

Dogthinker
04-03-2011, 05:03 PM
IGNORE their archer until u wipe out all their melee armies in the fort...

and i think its even better if they crawling ur fort AFTER their out of ammo

if u have two Cavalry, its will enough too charge them :D

This is true. Although sometimes you will face armies with 15+ units of samurai archers. In this case, two units of cavalry is not enough. :eek:

ntwfan
04-03-2011, 05:03 PM
I've actually wondered this myself. The above post is nice and all, but while my archers are shooting theirs, they're often aiming at my melee troops within the walls. Often times multiple regiments get whittled down to less than half by their archers before I route them. And of course if I bring anything out to attack the archers I lose my advantage. Is there some strategy to minimize your casualties before the melee begins, and their archers are just shooting into your fort?

If their army is majority archers, is it recommended to actually bring your troops outside the walls and make it hand to hand?

As defender, the more archer units you have, the better. This allows you to order some to shoot back at the enemy archers, while others attack the enemy melee units. I just set my melee units to loose formation and pull them out of the enemy archers' range. The enemy archers will then move closer to the walls. If most of their melee units are already committed to fighting on the walls, you can do a quick cavalry charge on their unguarded archers without tiring your cavalry out. You can also send some of your melee units to kill the archers without much fatigue penalty as they are nearer to the walls. But never leave the walls until most of the enemy melee units are routed or destroyed.

Genius
04-03-2011, 05:18 PM
This is true. Although sometimes you will face armies with 15+ units of samurai archers. In this case, two units of cavalry is not enough. :eek:

well 2 vs 15+ ? cmon man !! what r u talking about ? XD
well dont hope too much in that case i suggest, lol

im told that because have the experience againts enemies archer... about 6 or 5 left after i wiped their melees...
Off course my 2 cavalry not alone, come on ! :cool:

im sorry and no offence, i quite rare encounter enemies besiege me with 10+ archer... and i think only fool general have 2 cavalry againt 15 samurai bow. Wheres the rest of ur armies ? Dont do that :cool:

Koujjo
04-03-2011, 06:10 PM
Thanks for the replies. The siege I'm refering to specifically the attacking enemy had six regular archers and I had four archer units (two or three of them were samurai). Part of the problem I ran into was my samurai archers ran out of ammo really quickly and I could do nothing but stand there under a rain shower of arrows with only one unit to return fire. The numbers of melee units on both sides were about equal so I did not think charging them would be a good move. I'm beginning to wonder how much better bow samurai are than the peasant archers.

Sainty
04-03-2011, 07:16 PM
I have found that 10 units of noob archers is enough to defend a castle, sometimes i loose 1-2 units if the attacker did bring reinforcements, but noob archers are so cheap and easy to replace that its no biggy. I keep all my archers around the wall, if there is no room, i spread them out near the wall to help out with the defending.

Meele units are far back, spread out, hiding - trying to always do my best to keep them out of reach from the enemies fire, except the noob units. They can be good cannon fodder so my archers can do their thing in peace.

I never pull any archer unit back from the wall, I always let them fight it out, but I do bring a meele unit closer to the action in case the archer unit dies out. This has worked pretty well for me, I havent lost a castle yet - been attacked around 7-8 only though.

MikeyBarracuda
04-03-2011, 07:46 PM
You can win 90% of the siege defense fights in this game with just Ashigaru units and a decent general. I generally like to have a 1:1 ratio of yari and bow ashigaru. Some are tempted to go all out bow ashigaru because they see how effective a few can be behind castle walls. Bow ashigaru suffer from diminishing returns in that you can only have so many garrisoned on the walls at once (so only those are getting the defense buff) and when/if the enemy does get inside your walls with some decent samurai - you are going to really want the yari ashigaru to fight them off. Bow Ashigaru become dramatically less useful once/if the enemy makes it into your walls.

Anyways, generally speaking, if you see a 11 card army heading to your castle, 5 yari ashigaru, 5 bow ashigaru, and 1 general can/should hold this off. As previously mentioned, position your bow ashigaru at the walls until they are out of ammo or the enemy are scaling. Once the enemy is scaling, replace the bow ashigaru with your yari to fight at the wall. If a particularly strong unit is scaling (like katana samurai with a few experience levels) then throw your samurai retainers on the wall. Between your general bonus, castle morale bonus, and wall defense bonus - your samurai retainers can really hold their own. Not to mention the fact that 10-30 units can die just from falling when scaling walls.

Morale will be your saving grace in winning most castle battles. As your archers pepper the enemy while they scale your walls, enemy morale is sometimes so low that they rout after 5 seconds of melee fighting within the walls.

Sainty
04-03-2011, 08:19 PM
BTW, I'm gonna high-jack this thread:

Anybody know why my archers, that has been ordered to "guard" their position at the wall, runs after the enemy when they come in contact - this always seem happend which leads to that my gates gets open - and cannot be closed.

englishking
04-03-2011, 08:24 PM
Does anyone want to do Medieval total war 2 hotseat?

Epicurus
04-03-2011, 08:41 PM
Easy - get a better castle

If you have anything from fortress up it makes it a hell of a lot easier to defend :)

Also train better archers eg. samurai instead of ashigaru - or even bow monks :P

Maurice76
04-03-2011, 09:03 PM
Bow Samurai have better accuracy so they hit more, and they have a higher reload skill, so they shoot faster. Also, when it does come to punches, the Bow Samurai have better morale, as well as better melee and defense. The only downside is that they're only 90 as opposed to 120 Ashigaru's.

daelin4
04-03-2011, 09:08 PM
I've beaten back large armies with even a handful of ashigaru units. It does depend on their own unit count. Remember that while attempting to scale the walls or shooting at your troops they go uphill with morale. Try to take out their general first, that will very seriously hamper their morale and entire units can run even when not actually engaging you in any way. Sometimes the AI will attack from multiple directions, but often times these sections lack in certain unit types like archers or all spearmen that you can take advantage of. Remember your Samurai Retainers are basically souped up Katana Samurai, so use them. They free, they're good, and they pack a punch despite their small numbers.

In fact, the very first siege defence I fought was this same reason: the AI had one entire section made up of their generals, ran close to the gates, and sat there. I sallied out all my half dozen ashigaru and killed them all. The rest of the entire army fled as soon as they approached the walls and my 2-3 archer units pecked at them with arrows. The entire siege battle turned into chasing down hordes of routers. In this game, it is VERY possible to defeat an overwhelmingly large number of troops, so long as their general is slain ASAP.

In the event that you simply can't defeat an enemy, you can always make it very costly for them. My latest campaign as Shimazu my enemies sent a full stack against just my castle garrison. I destroyed about 3/4 of the entire army before I was defeated: this was Fortress (2nd) level, so only about 5 units of garrison troops. My reinforcing army, about half a stack, auto-resolved victory against the rest the next turn. That particular clan was pretty much finished at that point. Its all about routing the packs and dealing with any that stand and fight, and you'll significantly whittle them down.

Sometimes it takes a lost battle to win a war. But you gotta earn your defeat, in order to earn a victory. If you can't win a siege, then make sure they lose their army for it. One more province means nothing to a clan with no army left.

ACSephiroth
04-03-2011, 09:53 PM
Question: If I am using siege weapons, in what order of targets from general, archers, and towers do I order to fire at first?

Maurice76
04-03-2011, 10:13 PM
I'd say to use siege weapons against towers mainly, since they lack any serious accuracy to be used against mobile troops. Still, you might get a lucky shot. Up to the situation, I guess. As it is, if you can knock out a tower on an undefended side (by archers, that is), you might be able to bring your archers close and pepper the General with arrows (possibly fire arrows) with impunity.

daelin4
04-03-2011, 10:28 PM
The siege I'm refering to specifically the attacking enemy had six regular archers and I had four archer units (two or three of them were samurai). Part of the problem I ran into was my samurai archers ran out of ammo really quickly and I could do nothing but stand there under a rain shower of arrows with only one unit to return fire. The numbers of melee units on both sides were about equal so I did not think charging them would be a good move. I'm beginning to wonder how much better bow samurai are than the peasant archers. Samurai archers are slightly fewer per unit, but they have superior accuracy, morale, and melee. Unless the enemy has swarms of sword infantry, they are actually the ideal unit for castle defence if not for their relatively expensive upkeep. They dish out more damaging arrows AND can reasonably hold off yari ashigaru that go over the walls. But remember, they're still archer units, you just need to keep fewer melee troops to back them up. Because their position as archers defending walls means the chances of melee are far lower, they are very good at this role. Bow ashigaru on the other hand are weaker in every stat that counts for castle defence: their only advantage is their cheap cost and the likelihood that your enemy is also fielding mostly ashigaru units, which lack armour. Reserve your samurai archers' arrows for the armoured fellows like generals their samurai units, that's their best use; ashigaru arrows do less damage, so you might as well.

The event of your samurai archers running out of arrows can actually be a good thing since you can then devote them to melee defence, something bow ashigaru are very poor at. But again, they still have swords, no matter how bad they are at melee, so don't let them sit around with no arrows watching your melee troops die. They got swords, so make them useful, however ill-suited they are. Every battle where I defeated a larger enemy, I pit my ashigaru archers to join my melee units. In such a siege EVERY man's sword counts. With bow samurai I would've fared even better since they really can put up a fight.

So if you only have few Samurai archers to go around, assign them to your most danger-zone castles. On the field they can get charged or engaged with melee infantry full on, but behind walls this can never happen. They are the kings of castle defence on melee.

In addition, effects from Clan events, generals and arts also give bonuses, including running speed, accuracy and even ammunition. These are invaluable force multipliers against a larger enemy. Don't be fooled by the numbers of units; they can make literally no effect on the outcome of a battle.

Wazabi
04-04-2011, 07:46 AM
I'll usually have ninjas on all the front line, so I'll be able to spot any incoming army and react to it accordingly. If it's an archer heavy unit, and I have mostly melee troops that could be mustered for defence, I'll prefer to choose a forested area outside the city and wait for his archer army to close in, deploy a line of melee infantry in forest, hide it, wait for them to approach, then charge the line at them.

If I'm defending in the fort, I'll be targeting my arrows at advancing melee troops trying to rout at least a few of them before they reach the walls. Naginata with armour upgrade and loose formation works suprisingly well at tanking arrows too.

If enemy has no cav (or only a gen unit), I'll move out my yari cav to draw attention from some of their melee units, or charge the archers from the back. If their Gen is alone, I'll pincer their general.

Cookie Shogunate
04-04-2011, 08:01 AM
Was wondering if anyone could point me to any beginners guides for Shogun2 that address sieges. I'm having trouble defending against the AI when they hit me with tons of archers. Seems like there's nowhere safe to park my general and my whole army just gets whittled down to nothing. Any tips, videos or written guides you can point me to? Thanks.

1. Defending a castle is easy if you have an Army Garrisoned. Terribly difficult but fun if using just the inbuilt Garrison.

2. Depending on Castle level, have your melee stand in loose formation behind a building. i.e. if enemy archers are peppering you, get the unit to run behind a building, it'll afford some or complete protection. Alternatively, run the unit to 'man' the walls, which provide excellent protection.

3. Turn off Auto Fire. Instead, direct the fire of the archers, make every shot count. I usually concentrate fire, reassigning archers to sectors where i can rout the threat quickly, while allowing enemy melee to scale and penetrate other sectors allowing my melee to meet the threat instead. Reassign depending on your defense objective. Defending everything defends nothing. - Frederick the Great

4. Ashigaru archers are great on the defensive. Always have a couple of katana samurai or naginata samurai. I find No-daichi useless since they aren't armored as well.

5. Make sure your units are within the General's command radius. If a sector looks like it's faltering, ride your general there to boost morale. Have him stand there for a while will help improve the morale over time. Don't rush him to another location unless it's absolutely a critical point in your defense you can't afford to lose.