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View Full Version : Ability prices need to be fixed



Marshal Suchet
12-28-2011, 03:17 AM
Basically, when I look at the ability prices and compare what they offer with in return, the relative benefits really don't add up.

Rapid volley is still 240 koku.
Fire by rank is 240 koku
Banzai is 120 koku
Inspire is 120 koku
Hold firm is 120 koku.
Scare enemies is 120 koku

I think the costs should look something like this;

Hold Firm; 240
Banzai: 120
Inspire: 120
Rapid Volley: 120
Fire by Rank: 70
Scare enemies: 70

The days of meatshielding are over (due to the fact that matchlocks barely fire if there is an obstruction), so I don't see why we need to have the overly heavy nerfs on matchlock special abilities. Fire by rank was never a dangerous ability to begin with and 120 koku is a good price for rapid volley, which whilst useful, was only really dangerous when you could fire through a meatshielding unit.

Scare enemies does not stack and I do not therefore see why the ability should cost as much as what it does.

Hold firm needs a major price increase. It is so easy to stack several units with this ability into your army (I should know, I have two monk cav with hold firm that I run in one of my builds and am thinking of getting a third because the cost increase is pretty bearable) and it does become a bit ridiculous when you have some players running a chain of hold firms right through an entire battle - especially when this on cheap yari ashigaru units.

Banzai and inspire are fairly useful and at 120 koku are well priced for what they give you in return.

Just my two cents, but I think these pricing options would be much better for the overall balance of the veterans abilities.

HaZE7
12-28-2011, 03:53 AM
I think I agree with everything except for the rapid volley.
I would need to do some tests again because I do not recall how much they nerfed it
I know inspire was nerfed a lot.. was rapid volley?

I recall rapid volley absolutely annihilating a full heavy infantry unit before contact when inspired.

AresGodofWar1214
12-28-2011, 03:55 AM
If they were making a new game, sure, some of what you say makes sense. However last time CA tinkered with these things, it made 6 of my matchlocks grossly overpriced, making me lose 120 clan tokens due to rapid volley just not being worth it anymore. If they did something like that again, it would **** a lot of people off. That outweights the small balancing it would add to the game.

Marshal Suchet
12-28-2011, 04:07 AM
I deleted all my rapid volley vets a while back, would be just as inconvenient for me as anyone else. I'd rather see the game balanced well than have the current abilities as they are.

At the very least the price of hold firm needs to go up.

HaZE7
12-28-2011, 04:11 AM
@ares
you can agree with reductions though right? like rankfire down to 70?

@marshal
I also use nag monk cav hold firm a lot and agree that it should cost more. an increase from 1350ish to 1500 for a level 9 nag monk hold firm cav wouldnt be so bad. It buffs and it kills.

Julius_Caesar
12-28-2011, 05:15 AM
if you think matchlocks barley fire than you havent played because they will shoot through anything.

Marshal Suchet
12-28-2011, 06:17 AM
I've played 36 battles in the past two days, all with matchlocks, so I think I should know. :)

Hidden Gunman
12-28-2011, 06:42 AM
Matchies got free friendly fire back...I suggest that any ability they use should be priced at 570 koku.

As for the days of meatshielding being over, I think I just need to go change my pants...obviously you need to play some of your clan mates, Such. Several of them gave me a right royal hiding from meatshielded ashi matchies in the last few days.

TheDuke
12-28-2011, 07:06 AM
hold firm monk cav already cost a shiny penny adding another 120 just makes it more unreasonable especially how guns and spears can kill them with ease.


Hold firm MC is around 1380. + 120. you get yourself 1500

(Darkelf) Temper
12-28-2011, 08:22 AM
Matchies got free friendly fire back...I suggest that any ability they use should be priced at 570 koku.

As for the days of meatshielding being over, I think I just need to go change my pants...obviously you need to play some of your clan mates, Such. Several of them gave me a right royal hiding from meatshielded ashi matchies in the last few days.

Hi all !

Not quite HG,friendly fire is there,and it states this in the unit card when being fired upon.Changed from -20 to -6.

I did a melee blob with the wifes army and shot into my mens backs.The matchies scored over 300 kills before my one unit of naginata sams fled with twenty odd men left.To finish off engagement I charged in my second unit of nagi sam and it was game over.Now if I had added a hold firm ?

Keep your shield troops in loose formation until contact with the enemy(matchlocks will shoot between your own men) is the trick.As soon as both sides are in the melee,your matchlock troops have absolutely no qualms about shooting into the rear of there own(without orders).

I can see what CA were trying to accomplish,it just isn't translating well in my opinion.

@The Duke: You use monk cavalry to engage spears ? And well guns are equal opportunity killers.Makes no difference what unit they shoot at.

Hold firm is very very popular,and for good reason.Does it need a price increase? have to wait and see what better players than myself think.

Temper

TheDuke
12-28-2011, 09:57 AM
I am saying that cav has more weaknesses than regular infantry, since they start with only 60 men, easy targets for guns and bows and are weak to spears. making the Hold firm ability expensive is kinda unfair, 1500 just to field a monk cav with hold firm is unreasonable.

Chocobo
12-28-2011, 12:03 PM
I have a feeling we're going to be seeing very little in the way of Shogun 2 balance changes at this point, it seems like CA is giving 110% towards getting it right for Fall of the Samurai.

Julius_Caesar
12-28-2011, 04:27 PM
i dont think the problem is that Hold firm is not expensive enough i think the other abilities are not good enough. the rank 9 abilities should be something that you want to get for your units thats why they created the clan specialties, you need to choose what units you want to get those extra buffs for. Banzai should be buffed definitely the bow clan needs to be given something useful. Naginata units need to be given something good. Fire by rank for matchlocks is really only useful for large-ultra battles where you need to fit them in a smaller area, so there is no reason it should be 240 and rapid fire is really good when you can get a matchlock with more than 100 reload and can blast 2 units before they even get into combat, so i can agree with that being 240 especially when matchlocks start at a lower price than most other units.

Hidden Gunman
12-28-2011, 08:45 PM
We are falling back into the trap of having a couple of things dominating the game...at the moment it's 'strung out units' and hold firm. And now that I have confirm that ff is back in play, that explains the strung out unit issue.

I would also suggest that there needs to be a good look taken at clan abilities as well. Cav specialty gets jack diddly, unless you sell your soul and take monk cav...whereas the other melee specialties can put a range of decent upgrades on most if not all their unit types.

andferpa
12-28-2011, 09:42 PM
Hold firm is extremely popular, the solution maybe is not increasing the price, but decreasing it, making it affect less units or something like that.

The matchlock abilities should be taken down to 120, just to give more variety, once that people start using them again, cavalry can come into play again, same with bows. And nooboxing with spears won´t be as effective as before, due to swords incredible power.
Nooboxing with swords will give up charge and terrain bonuses, and be vulnerable to cavalry too.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 01:15 AM
then we might as well decrease the use of WAR CRY while we are at it.

but what should really happen is that we should be buffing Banzai to affect 3 other units or Banzai costing 70 koku and introducing HOLD FIRM to the sword clan.

for bow clan SNIPING and KISHO TRAINING should be combined into 1 lvl 9 skill. And armor piercing to be another skill.

(Darkelf) Temper
12-29-2011, 03:23 AM
Hi all !

Increased range bow clan only. =P Wako raiders/bandits make Kisho and sniping mostly redundant for vanilla units.

Hold firm spear clan only.Hold firm effects only the unit that has it upgraded.

Banzai sword clan only,no change needed.Except to fix it,it's time lasts only 15 seconds,thanks AMP

Inspire cavalry clan only,no change needed.

Price them all at 150 koku for the upgrade and need 8 upgrades to unlock.

Take upgrades away from ashigaru,or at least elite upgrades.Uncap loanswords.

Leave matchlock as they are,their killing power is absolutely fine.I don't think CA can get the balancing of matchlocks right,it's either way too much or way too little.

Leave melee cavalry as they are,cap the new DLC ranged cav as per bow cav. ie:3 ranged cav per army total.Even better,seperate the ROTS units into a different period (including retainers) and have it work in the same way as classic battles.

Take warcry away from monks,and make it upgrade only.Decrease price of monks by worth of the upgrade.The point to this is,if you want monks with warcry,then you need to spend veteran slots on keeping them.

Bows,no change needed.

Rework and fix retainers that arent working and get rid of the stacking effect they have.We'll see slightly less spam if one unit type can't be overloaded with buffs.

Some drastic changes no ? Not to be taken to heart,just some thoughts.

Temper

AMP
12-29-2011, 03:24 AM
Hmmm my thoughts on the abilities...

1) Hold Firm: The price I find is fine, but instead of "unbreakable morale" just add morale boost. I don't believe in a game that's suppose to have battles revolve around morale to give any unit crazy morale let alone "unbreakable morale".

2) Banzai: This ability if it lasted the full 45secs with not "unbreakable morale" but a small morale buff would set just fine costing around 70 koku. However it only lasts 15secs and only benefits the unit itself not up to 4 units like hold firm. They need to fix it to last it's full length and remove the "unbreakable morale" with just a small morale buff.

3) Inspire: It's fine as it is right now, but should cost only around 70 koku since it also only works for one unit.

4) Scare Enemies: I think this should be 70 koku because it doesn't stack and only works for that unit which you bought the ability for and it's permanent which is fine.

5) Fire by Rank: Should NOT even be an ability because all foot matchlock units should have rank fire and rotating lines at a thinker depth than 2 ranks just like STW days. They were perfect in the very first STW like that, so I have no idea why such a change was done. It doesn't take a genius to fire a matchlock over someones shoulder infront of you... let alone have them fire all at the sametime and after that have them fire at will instead of this waiting until the last soldier is done reloading? wtf?

6) Rapid Volley: I'm not a fan of having matchlocks being able to fire faster than bows let alone have an ability which can help double the reload speed that of your lowest ranking bow unit. Just wow... Anyway since we have it keeping it at a small buff like it dose now is fine. It was nerfed from what +70 crazy reload down to +15 and later received a price increase from 70koku to 240 koku? That's abit overkill I would think, lol. Don't believe in small steps CA always taking the extreme with unit balance... I would've always left this skill at 70 koku.

7) Snipe: This skill should just be given to the bow clan for FREE or at most just cost 25koku, lol.

So in short my changes would be...

1) Hold Firm: 120 koku - remove the unbreakable morale to a small buff

2) Banzai: 70 koku - remove the unbreakable morale to a small buff and make it last the full 45secs

3) Inspire: 70 koku

4) Scare Enemies: 70 koku

5) Fire by Rank: given to all matchlock units - removed as an upgrade, sorry how it was before in the old days just made to much sense to warrant any change imho

6) Rapid Volley: 70 koku

7) Snipe: Free or 25 koku LoL poor bow clan

Hidden Gunman
12-29-2011, 03:29 AM
I don't think that banzai is unbreakable morale, as it is now. Units still seem to rout out in the open when they are down to around 10% or so troops left with banzai still active.

Aside from that, I do agree with most of what else you say AMP, although TheDuke has an outstanding suggestion in nerfing warcry...Well done, that man!

AMP
12-29-2011, 03:42 AM
@Hidden Gunman
Banzai last for 15secs not the full 45secs that it shows on your unit card and banner and yes the first 15secs the unit is unbreakable after that all the effects of banzai wear off. I can make a video showing it if you don't believe me. :)

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 03:44 AM
lasts longer than 15 secs.

(Darkelf) Temper
12-29-2011, 04:19 AM
Hi again !

Just tested Banzai,one fresh and one rank two No dachi,AMP is correct.

Temper

AMP
12-29-2011, 04:21 AM
Thanks for pointing that out Duke!... yes it lasts something like 22 secs only half the time about while the icon is active. Way to miss the point.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 04:50 AM
thought it was a technical error and not a minor exaggeration

AMP
12-29-2011, 05:10 AM
I never stopped watched it, sorry my bad, but I knew it didn't last the full length, I was just guessing until you pointed it out I was wrong on the 15secs, so I thought I was off by alot and checked to make sure. If you knew yourself you could've said the exact time, but that wasn't my point about the ability anyway. O.o

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 05:15 AM
*shrugs*

no one asked me for it.

AMP
12-29-2011, 05:17 AM
But you correct someone who is incorrect with how long it lasts by saying "it lasts longer than 15secs"...

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 05:24 AM
well if you said "Alright, what is it?" I would have responded with the answer.

but ya. whats the point of questioning me about my own habits?

AMP
12-29-2011, 05:55 AM
Well I knew it didn't last the whole time and most do as well, so pointing out it lasts longer than 15secs kinda made me think twice like it really worked or something the whole time, lol. The point was just to make banzai last the whole time to be more worth it's price and the time I thought it lasted around hardly mattered as it clearly wasn't close to the full length it should be.

AMP
12-29-2011, 05:58 AM
I do however like you idea that sniping and kisho training should be combine into 1 skill and they should have another one for armor piercing.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 06:08 AM
But ya I think its only attack that lasts for 20ish seconds while morale lasts that whole 45

but I think Banzai should be worth 70 koku like how war cry is for nagi monk cav.

AMP
12-29-2011, 06:14 AM
On banzai? No, the morale drops back to normal the sametime the melee attack wears off. It all should last the whole 45secs, but morale should not be unbreakable as I stated because the game is suppose to be based around a morale system, so a small buff would be good enough imo.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 06:17 AM
well i think the reason holdfirm and banzai are unbreakable morale is to try to turn the tide around in a close game if the morale was a small amount boost then it wouldnt change the fact that theyh will instantly route.

Chocobo
12-29-2011, 07:17 AM
I do however like you idea that sniping and kisho training should be combine into 1 skill and they should have another one for armor piercing.

Armor piercing bows will break the game. They already decimate unarmored targets, if they could kill every target as if they were unarmored the game would just revolve around bow spam.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 07:20 AM
armor piercing = half the armor of a unit.

AMP
12-29-2011, 08:12 AM
Only highly vetted bows can decimate unarmored targets fairly quickly if you start shooting early at them on the charge towards you and they cost a pretty penny anyway. Most games you don't even see vet bows because they just eat up to much koku where someone who spent almost all their koku on melee will have the numbers in most cases to just overwhelm the player with the vet bows.

If someone is the bow clan I have no problem with seeing them with better bows, which they are paying an added price for.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 10:35 AM
especially how range 200s cost an arm and a leg. cost like what? 1400 ish?

BeardyMcJohnFace
12-29-2011, 01:04 PM
Armor piercing bows will break the game. They already decimate unarmored targets, if they could kill every target as if they were unarmored the game would just revolve around bow spam.

well, depends how much they'd cost. it'd cheapen the more expensive units/vets for sure which is not necessarily a bad thing, just as long as it's not a cheap upgrade you could slap onto a bunch of vet 1 bow ashigaru...

AMP
12-29-2011, 07:07 PM
Yeah you also got to consider the price vet bows will be at when they have the armor piercing skill depending on the lvl the bow must be in order to buy it in comparison to how much a vet7 katana sam costs for example and the fact max fund MM battles are 14k.

TheDuke
12-29-2011, 07:49 PM
just gonna put this out here, why is bow clan the only clan that doesnt get INSPIRE?

Hidden Gunman
12-29-2011, 11:06 PM
Duke, for the same reason that cav clan only gets scare enemies for two units, has no heroes, and has to go down the monk path to compete with non-cav clan builds.

HaZE7
12-30-2011, 12:03 AM
I have a banzai light cav that I really should have made Inspire...

andferpa
12-30-2011, 12:19 AM
At least cav clans have hold firm for monk cav, swords and bows have nothing to compare to hold firm in spears and cav.

TheDuke
12-30-2011, 01:41 AM
Duke, for the same reason that cav clan only gets scare enemies for two units, has no heroes, and has to go down the monk path to compete with non-cav clan builds.wait.... which other cav except GG have scare enemies?

andferpa
12-30-2011, 04:29 AM
yari cav, right?

I´ll check.

Thesaboteur
12-30-2011, 05:22 AM
IMO they should remove all abilities out and get back strategy as the main.

But since they won't, heres what I suggest:

Hold firm--- Very useful for non-leadership armies. Taking the unbreakable morale is like saying take the leadership tree out with stand and fight. All yari units that have this usually cost 1250+. Gives unbreakable morale and +6 Defense. I personally use this ability and it is not at all overpowered. You have to think how to use it, as the units you want it to effect might not get it at all. Cost 150

Banzai--Useful for an attacking army as the first blow is the most important. The no-dachi have this mainly to get through their pitiful armor and thats (imo) where it should stay. All the other units like nagi. monks, nagi. sam, cavalry, and swordsmen generals do not need it. Gives +8 charge (?) and +5 attack (?) Should perhaps be given to hero's only to make up for there small numbers. Cost 100

Scare Enemies-- This one is bugged but if they get it fixed, it should be -2 morale like warcry. Cost 100

Inspire-- This one is a keeper and should be made for all clans. It gives +3 attack, +20 accuracy (?), and +3 morale (?)

Archery bonus-- There are two, kisho training and sniping. I've seen players use this ability and quite frankly, it's unerving. I use a bow general with 200 range to snipe generals. When I see you don't have bows I charge in, and with kisho, you can surprise me. It would work better with matchlocks though. I would like to see in the next game a Ranged Clan specialty with range as its final one. The range bonus in this game for non-bow clanners makes no sense. Cost 200

andferpa
12-30-2011, 05:04 PM
Hold firm doesnt cost 1250 or more in yari ashi...
its around 790 , and people can take 2 or three of them and still have a good army.

Banzai is good, it just needs to last longer.

Scare enemies should not be -2 morale, at most it should be -1

Inspire is fine, since almost every clan can have it.

The archery bonus costing 200 is ridiculous, maybe locking the extended range into only bow clans would work, but if it costed 200 people would not use bows...

AMP
12-30-2011, 10:54 PM
The last time I checked the only cav unit that have scare are great guards... I thought we knew this already? I guess gunman means can only deploy two units with scare, but two is enough anyway. It's just that cav clan have no cheap cav to bring on the field with it while sword clan can bring scare on the field with fairly cheap ashi swords. The cav clan still have monk cav with hold firm at a fair price, which can do wonders in a battle.

Hold firm not at all OP? Hmmm... what other abilities are just as good as hold firm for their cost?

The extra charge from banzai is hardly noticeable. I like to activate banzai in more situations where my unit is starting to get down lower in number or when it could possibly rout early from being in a bad position - it's like a "save me" easy mode ability, just like hold firm.

Scare enemies still doesn't work? Hmmm... I know the retainer works giving my general scare when I tried it, but the ability for the LS tree and GG still is broken? Anyway why should scare cost more than warcry, just because it's permanent? Warcry has a steeper effect and a limited time, so that balance is fine there, but not the cost difference.

If extended ranged were to cost 200 for non-bow clans why even bother having it as an option because no one would be foolish to spend that amount of cash on just alittle extra range.

(Darkelf) Temper
12-31-2011, 02:58 AM
Hi all !

Why not make extended range bow clan only,and make kisho/snipe all clans ?

There is very little point to kisho/snipe upgrade any vanilla units due to DLC adding cheap retainerless kisho trained units,and one of them is as battle worthy as katana sam.

Have any of you actually upgraded a vanilla unit to kisho (never mind snipe) and seen the price of those suckers ? An unsupported unit with poor melee skills,bordering 2000 koku just screams kill me now to your opponent.

Temper

Hidden Gunman
12-31-2011, 09:38 PM
I said two units, not two types of units.

Banzai on Katana cavalry is really a force leveller, and makes up for a lot of other pitfalls of the cav specialty. When used, I would expect kat cav to score anywhere upwards of 200 kills.

I think the way things have gone with the game I'll be upgrading and vetting a mass of monk cav for 'hold firm'...I've avoided it so far, but **** this, I'm tired of reaching the upper tiers on the ladder and coming to a stop.

andferpa
01-01-2012, 12:33 AM
That's a great idea, HG.

Although, I'm not used to units exceeding 1300 koku per unit, so I would not recommend having more than 2 hold firm monk cav in an army.

My favorite thing right now is running monk cav with hold firm behind enemy swords, hammer and anvil them , and hit hold firm, they get scared, and my troops get boosted :)

gbatemper
01-01-2012, 02:02 AM
Warcry+Flank with Monk Cav is devastating, it can make units rout seconds after it hits.