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View Full Version : Bow units not worth it?



BagBoss
01-03-2012, 06:06 PM
For the cost, I never really seem to find bow units worth it. I never felt like I was able to deter an enemy from attacking, or that I was able to weaken an oncoming charge substantially since the first wave is usually naginatas.. Does any one feel the same?

KatsumotoGK
01-03-2012, 06:10 PM
not worth it!!! ?? nonsense! next you will be saying i am not worth it!

Chris lol
01-03-2012, 06:59 PM
http://www.theposhreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/poshreviloreal1.jpg

On a serious note: hf playing foothills without bows... LOL

andferpa
01-03-2012, 07:33 PM
Use bows to make THEM attack you, since you can just pick off units with impunity, making them attack allows you to setup an effective defensive formation

Julius_Caesar
01-03-2012, 07:52 PM
you have to put ur army on a hill and then use your bows to make them attack you. most people if you try this will just forest camp so that i why i dont think they are really worth it, forests should do less to protect units however i like how it is tactical to put your bows in forests for bow fights so i dont know what they can do to keep both.

BagBoss
01-03-2012, 08:07 PM
I understand that bows are used to force enemies into attacking you. But most people utilize melee heavy builds without missle troops. And missle troops can only get so many volleys in before the ranks clash. And it's hard to reposition them into a position to be effective once the real battle begins. All I'm saying is for the cost, they usually don't get as many kills as you expect them to.

Goliath
01-03-2012, 08:15 PM
I just started playing multiplayer so I'm still pretty low level but I always take at least 1 units of bow cav and some bow samurai.. but then i usually like to have a little bit of everything in my army.. (i'm sure when i unlock matchlock samurai i'll use those as well)

If nothing else your bow units can be used as a distraction (especially bow cav skirmishing/harrassing on the flanks).

Julius_Caesar
01-03-2012, 08:17 PM
if a bow monk with 9 chevs shoots away at katana sam or no dachi for 50 shots they will get 400+kills. put your army on a hill or equally tactical position and bate them forward with your bows

December
01-03-2012, 08:22 PM
I will say that my Daikyu samurai with kisho training have turned the tides of many battles. Now I'm sure none of you are in bow specialist clans, but consider hiding your bows until the battle clashes so that you get them into a good position. Sometimes it's worth it since a proper angle will net you more kills.

admiral_tromp
01-03-2012, 09:23 PM
bows are worth their price, I prefer to attack the enemy, because of that I use them to soften up the enemy lines or take down enemy missile units (I prefer to shoot at heavy gunners). you could also force your enemy of a hill into a forest, that way you don't have to fight uphill.

tricky-step
01-04-2012, 12:08 AM
I understand that bows are used to force enemies into attacking you. But most people utilize melee heavy builds without missle troops. And missle troops can only get so many volleys in before the ranks clash. And it's hard to reposition them into a position to be effective once the real battle begins. All I'm saying is for the cost, they usually don't get as many kills as you expect them to.

For this very reason I always opt to use at least one bow unit with whistling arrows. That way I can penalize a rushing army or swing the skirmish fight in my favor against his range units since whistling slows down their reload rates on top of the other debuffs. My only complaint about this ability is that its a bit short.

BeardyMcJohnFace
01-04-2012, 12:09 AM
1-2 decent bow units is almost always worth while. With extra ammo, your daikyu will still get twice their worth in kills if they camp a forest. they're melee rushing? snipe his gen with your bows, stops the stand and fight melee stats and +2 moral boost that these builds rely on AND inflicts a moral penalty. you might even luck out and hit him before he rallies/inspires. you should also consider 1-2 matchlocks, they don't even need to be good, i usually take unvetted ashi matchlock for their intimidation value. matchock fire + dead gen = very unhappy army.

Sima Zhong Da
01-04-2012, 04:48 AM
I personally use bows to take out their high value targets. Bow samurais of course. The thing about bows is that people just randomly shoot them into their opponent's army hoping to hit something. Targeting powerful and expensive units will more than pay off their cost if you don't look at kills alone.

gnourt1994
01-04-2012, 06:40 PM
this might be a newbie question since i'm new, but how do i unlock new units, like Bow Warrior Monks.
thx for the reply

Goliath
01-05-2012, 09:30 AM
this might be a newbie question since i'm new, but how do i unlock new units, like Bow Warrior Monks.
thx for the reply

you have to move your avatar around on the avatar conquest map, and as you win battle you unlock the province. Whatever building / retainer reward is in that province you get it. If you unlock all the bow dojo's you'll get the bow units, and spear dojo you'll get spear units etc.

st3nm4n
01-05-2012, 09:32 PM
bows arent worlthless problem e though extra cav can be much more usefull in gaining cav supremecy more kills and easier to rout your oponent i persenally think they should be buffed up when the game first game out they were 5 times stronger i liked that you always first had a skirmish kind of phase because back then it was suicide to attach instantly much more fun battles gr

Falcon
01-05-2012, 10:09 PM
In my opinion, bows can be worth their cost on most maps.

I personally like to use one bow infantry and one ranged cav unit. Their purpose is not to get a lot of kills but to force the enemy to react and move. Two different angles of ranged attack gives you a lot of options.

In the event that I can't use my bows because of forest, enemy army composition,, rushing, superior enemy cav, or my stupid mistakes, I didn't spend so much money on them as to gimp the rest of my army.

I think some people think bows are useless because they still try the old way of bringing 2-4 high vet bow infantry units, and in that case you will just get run over.

TLDNR: bows are not useless, spending 4000+ koku on them is. . .

st3nm4n
01-06-2012, 08:27 PM
falcon if spending 4k on bows is stupid and wont pay out even if you play right then bows are useless in my opinion. I think you should be able to take 4 missile and win, right now you are essentially handicapping yourself. if taking 1 bow for general or very costly unit killing makes bows usefull for u then i dont think u understand what the thread starter meant with saying bows are useless.

Falcon
01-06-2012, 09:25 PM
falcon if spending 4k on bows is stupid and wont pay out even if you play right then bows are useless in my opinion. I think you should be able to take 4 missile and win, right now you are essentially handicapping yourself. if taking 1 bow for general or very costly unit killing makes bows usefull for u then i dont think u understand what the thread starter meant with saying bows are useless.

I think you should read my post more carefully.

The thread starter said that bows would not deter an enemy from attacking or cause substantial casualties to an enemy charge. No where in my post did I disagree with this. In fact, I agree when I say that spending 4,000 koku on bows is useless(as it will gimp your army against a melee heavy army).

I simply stated that having a bow unit or two(for ~1,200 koku put together) can be useful and cost effective in a battle by using them to force the enemy to react while not seriously handicapping your own melee force. Not for being killing machines, or general assassins, and not for stopping charges.

I too think that you should be able to take a heavy missile force and win, but I think just turning bows into long range killing machines would just swing the balance the other way.

Perhaps charging units under bow fire should move slower.

December
01-06-2012, 09:27 PM
Bows don't crush charges in real life either, though castle walls are a different matter. Bows are a damage over time sort of deal, I'm sure everyone here knows that. Protect your bows and they can do just as much damage as other units, it's simply more difficult to do so. Back when I first started playing I rolled bow general with two rank 9 bow cavalry and even that was worth it in my eyes.

Players generally aren't scared of walking into missile fire, you can use that to your advantage by hiding bows in the woods for some surprise damage. Just make sure you have back-up in case cavalry comes a knockin'.

Calling something useless is pointless (Except maybe for mangonels >.>), imo. Even Fire Bomb Throwers have their uses if you get the proper scenario.

tjkoshy686
01-07-2012, 04:13 AM
I dunno..I sorta agree with the original post. It would seem that no matter whether I win or lose, the bow units rack up the lowest kills (20 or so). they barely create a dent in the forces and half the time cant seem to hit their ****ed targets.

When combined with the resources I have to commit to protect em, I'm starting to believe that bow units are a drag to my army...not an asset.

The only time bows come in useful is when your enemy has standing completely still in open terrain and has no bows of their own. Of course this is a highly unlikely event.

Secuter
01-07-2012, 10:01 AM
1-2 decent bow units is almost always worth while. With extra ammo, your daikyu will still get twice their worth in kills if they camp a forest. they're melee rushing? snipe his gen with your bows, stops the stand and fight melee stats and +2 moral boost that these builds rely on AND inflicts a moral penalty. you might even luck out and hit him before he rallies/inspires. you should also consider 1-2 matchlocks, they don't even need to be good, i usually take unvetted ashi matchlock for their intimidation value. matchock fire + dead gen = very unhappy army.

Nice joke ;) To snipe a general! If he goes stand and fight, you could waste all your ammo for nothing... that gen just can't die



Anyways, always take at least 1 bow. If you don't have that you might find yourself charging uphill against matchlocks.. a bad bad scenario.... which I've seen the enemy do many times ;)

BeardyMcJohnFace
01-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Nice joke ;) To snipe a general! If he goes stand and fight, you could waste all your ammo for nothing... that gen just can't die
only if he has the 'immune to arrows' DLC...

johnsmith312
01-07-2012, 02:49 PM
I like to think about the success or failure of a bow unit in percentages. Rather than thinking "Oh, that charging unit reached my lines" I think oh that unit is now x% less effective due to the casualties it has taken. Loses 10 Samurai, 8.3% less effective, lose 20, 16.6% and so on. Looking at their kills at the end of a battle is a very small indicator of the effectiveness of the bow units.

Anyone else remember the pike and shot armies? Haven't seen on of them in a long time.

st3nm4n
01-07-2012, 03:09 PM
Falcon i dont think that if bows are turned into long range killing machines that the balance would go into the favor of bows absolutely not. Because bows need to be defended so you cant really spam them either. I dont know if you played when the game was just released but back then i think bows were just fine

Secuter
01-08-2012, 11:58 AM
only if he has the 'immune to arrows' DLC...

The next DLC coming - Immune to attack

Now your gen will fight like hell even under fire and against a katana hero + HE will win

- PC gamer "He just can't die"
- Gamers globe "It's amazing just killing hordes of enemies"

Next DLC Taking arrows and matchlock fire With this dlc you don't have to be afraid of matchlock fire nor bow fire as your bodyguards will take all the fire (only works in stand and fight + your gen can't rout)

- Gamers Hell "He just keep getting hit my matchlocks, but instead the bodyguards die a must have!"
- Gaming Trend - "The stand and fight is so much better now, we should all be leadergens - defiantly a must have!"

StrakerYrius
01-08-2012, 02:03 PM
Bows don't crush charges in real life either,

Tell that to the English Longbowmen at Crecy or Agincourt! I do agree though with the rest of your post.

I would always advocate taking 1-2 units of bow, and they can be invaluable. Against a cav opponent you can keep *****ing away at him until he is goaded into attacking, or against a camper if you pick the right angle of attack to shoot without receiving missiles back they can easily be worth their cost. They are especially useful against low-armoured targets like monks and ashis. Like every other unit in the game they just have to be used effectively rather than just thrown into the mix and left to their own devices.

eye-opener
01-08-2012, 10:17 PM
I have discovered the reason why you guys think that bow units are not worth it: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/30727-Bow-unit-firing-issue
They are simply bugged

You can see the amount of bugs here on that list: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/30498-An-quot-inofficial-quot-bug-list

Falcon
01-08-2012, 11:18 PM
Falcon i dont think that if bows are turned into long range killing machines that the balance would go into the favor of bows absolutely not. Because bows need to be defended so you cant really spam them either. I dont know if you played when the game was just released but back then i think bows were just fine

They are a little on the weak side, and I do wish they were used a little more often in matches but it is pretty much a given that in trying to correct it they will go too far and make bows too powerful. In that case, yes, the balance would swing of favor of heavy bow armies and almost everyone would use them.