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View Full Version : Pikemen OP?



Lucky8
09-06-2013, 01:34 AM
So I did some 1 on 1 test in custom battles. Pikemen is the **** in this game in the phalanx formation. Beat sword, calvary, elephants, other shorter spear units. Weak against skirmish missles, and not so good in sieges when climbing up to fight at walls. And not so good in auto resolve. But in open battle, unbeatable. Royal spartan lost to Spartan pikemen 1 on 1. Best of all they're cheaper...at half price.
My royal spartan couldn't beat very heavy melee sword units 1 on 1, but pikemen crush everything, they switch to sword in close combat (unlike regular spearmen), and the men behind them stab enemies with pike. They can turn direction quick too.

Other shorter spearmen seems to break phalanx formation when you order them to attack. When close to enemies, they just charge and lost formation.

Despite, being strong somehow enemies can break through their phalanx rank easily though. Just double clicking behind them will break their ranks render their formation useless.

Drop Shock
09-06-2013, 01:35 AM
Really? Because the AI just ran through my Pike units when I deployed them. Literally passed through and inbetween the men.

Col. Grizzly
09-06-2013, 01:37 AM
Phalanx are extremely susceptible to flanking manoeuvres and are not very mobile in phalanx. Lighter more mobile units can be used to great effect against a phalanx. Pin and flank is usually a good method.

Lemonater47
09-06-2013, 01:38 AM
Pike men are really easy. You distract them then charge them from the side. The break formation and your infantry thy were engaged with can then move closer and deal some damage.

MasterPoncho
09-06-2013, 01:46 AM
It all comes down to their mobility, or lack there of when in phalanx formation. Flank them and you are golden.

Arsaces
09-06-2013, 06:27 AM
Indeed. But make sure to have some mobile infantry units at the flanks.
If you are Macedon forexample you can have pikemens in the center and Royal Peltasts at the flank. Quit hard to beat.

Oshidori
09-06-2013, 06:40 AM
Overpowered yes from the front sometimes and rightly so. there meant to be like they were in real life they used tactics to by pass that strength.

It seems to be those stupid capture points mostly to blame for the rush through, they see them and woosh! your phalanx doesn't exist any more. They don't have an interest in fighting you, they just want to rush to the capture points above all else.

Or the enemy has some real ******g skinny units that can squeeze through your phalanx.

Sieptium
09-06-2013, 06:43 AM
Light units are **** against phalanx. They die instantly upon contact with the pikes.

Heavier units generally take very few losses and the gets into melee. With the steady buff you'll pretty much destroy these too tho.

A phalanx that you've told to attack will break formation and eventually walk past the enemy. Unable to turn around and attack again. Changing orders will cause them to rout

Corocota
10-20-2013, 10:24 AM
Light units are **** against phalanx. They die instantly upon contact with the pikes.

Agreed, seems they're quite overpowered; they can destroy several units this way without any looses. In TWRome (1st) at least it took more time to do this but now its instantly as you say, Idon't have time for flanking them :mad:

Setrus
10-20-2013, 10:25 AM
Agreed, seems they're quite overpowered; they can destroy several units this way without any looses. In TWRome (1st) at least it took more time to do this but now its instantly as you say, Idon't have time for flanking them :mad:

Personally, I'd prefer if pikemen were largely just keeping the enemy unit back, causing the odd loss to them, but mostly just keeping them fixed and unable to attack back.

rrgg
10-20-2013, 10:42 AM
Pikes are worthless against any unit not using formation attack.

Yang Wenli
10-20-2013, 10:44 AM
Pikes are worthless against any unit not using formation attack.
Yep. The blob is the unholy counter to the pike.

valouris
10-20-2013, 10:47 AM
Personally, I'd prefer if pikemen were largely just keeping the enemy unit back, causing the odd loss to them, but mostly just keeping them fixed and unable to attack back.

this is a very good idea

Yang Wenli
10-20-2013, 10:51 AM
this is a very good ideaHistorically inaccurate, though. Maybe only if the phalanx was stationary and not trying to walk over the enemies like they did in history, yeah, because most men wouldn't be stupid enough to charge in to it on their own. But if that phalanx is pushing against them or they're trying to push through it the game should punish that other unit for letting happen.

Setrus
10-20-2013, 11:10 AM
Historically inaccurate, though. Maybe only if the phalanx was stationary and not trying to walk over the enemies like they did in history, yeah, because most men wouldn't be stupid enough to charge in to it on their own. But if that phalanx is pushing against them or they're trying to push through it the game should punish that other unit for letting happen.

If the phalanx was pushing forward, I feel the enemy should be pushed back as well...unless they're being ordered to march forward, in which case they really ought to be punished, yes. :)

Mazthoril
12-08-2013, 09:45 PM
this is a very good idea

This is a terrible idea. It has absolutely no resemblance to what pikemen actually really did. If balance means more to you than reality then you may aswel start putting machine gunners and helicopters into the game, and just making their stats balance with everyone else.

Of course, that is an absolutely stupid idea, because even if they were made balanced (by being totally ****) it would be completely unrealistic and spoil the whole atmosphere..... Just like having static, defensive-only pikemen.

Realism > Ballance. (there is a reason why pikemen remained in used through almost 1000 years of warfare. Because they were VERY deadly! This should be reflected.)

Ohdows
12-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Realism > Ballance. (there is a reason why pikemen remained in used through almost 1000 years of warfare. Because they were VERY deadly! This should be reflected.)

almost a thousand years?

They where used in medieval times and in seventeenth century...that is 2000 years.

peugeot407
12-08-2013, 10:09 PM
They went out of fashion in the early Middle Ages though, and didn't really return in numbers until the Renaissance, when they started replacing halberds.

Benzoboi
12-08-2013, 10:48 PM
The new pikemen formations is poor and they are not compact enough as only 2 rows of sarissa are forward where realistically there were 4 or 5 rows. Would like to see them back in a tighter formation but with less melee attack and much less armour piercing so against heavily armoured units they will not kill many but they will also not suffer many casualties and it will be a long contested attrition fight. However against light infantry they should still be useful.

Would also like to see a ability for pikes called Advanced attack. When your phalanx goes into combat against another unit and you use this ability they should step forward while attacking. Driving through the other unit. However it should make them tired.

Sillius Soddus
12-08-2013, 10:55 PM
Is the OP kidding? Pikes overpowered? My pikemen get absolutely torn to shreds every single time, even when attacked from the front by light infantry. Levy pikemen last about 5 seconds in melee combat. Levy hoplites, on the other hand, are quite good.

FrostFire626
12-08-2013, 10:56 PM
Yes, pikes are overpowered. This is especially true when using them against the AI, which has no concept of flanking maneuvers at all.

Some solutions (all assuming spacing is returned to pre-patch):

1) reduce the rate of 'knockback' that the pikes cause to allow opposing infantry to eventually shove their way through.

2) leave the knockback and dramatically decrease the killing potential as suggested earlier.

3) add a major morale penalty whenever a phalanx is forcibly broken, to simulate panic caused by disarray.

4) longshot solution is to simulate the effect of infantryman gradually severing the heads of the pikes as they make contact, which I believe is historically accurate.

edit: Divide Et Impera reduces all kill speeds, which makes the pike 'shoving' effect a major gameplay mechanic. I'm not sure if this is different from vanilla.

MyNameBeatsYours
12-08-2013, 11:16 PM
It all comes down to their mobility, or lack there of when in phalanx formation. Flank them and you are golden.

They move the same speed in Phalanx. About 20% slower than light archers, same speed as running heavy sword infantry.

Pikes are as overpowered against Swords, Cavalry, etc. as Shock Cavalry is against Archers... :rolleyes:

Scissors wrecks that paper. Try throwing rocks.

nigesybar
12-09-2013, 12:46 AM
Is the OP kidding? Pikes overpowered? My pikemen get absolutely torn to shreds every single time, even when attacked from the front by light infantry. Levy pikemen last about 5 seconds in melee combat. Levy hoplites, on the other hand, are quite good.
You must remember that OP posted in September! In vanilla pikes were very powerful. Patch 7 nerfed pikes but I still do not recognise your description of pikemen now. Levy pikemen are low tier units that will beat all other infantry of the same tier and even one tier up when used carefully in my experience.

Mazthoril
12-09-2013, 05:23 AM
almost a thousand years?

They where used in medieval times and in seventeenth century...that is 2000 years.

What peugeot407 said... But its kinda beside the point anyway! The point is that they SHOULD be extremely dangerous. CA need to stop listening to the crying winge-bags who would rather spoil the game just to accommodate their own personal peeves than have a realistic and immersive experience.

Realism and attention to detail is what made total war a success. Throwing those things to the trash and lowering the bar just because a few people think reality is too mean is an apocalyptically terrible idea... Anyone know if there is a mod out there that retro-scripts the pikemen back to how they were before CA sharted all over them?

tigerace
12-09-2013, 07:29 AM
Classical single player only newbie, start playing online so you get your *** handed to you by other players, I personally can defeat the best pike infantry out there using only the basic roman legionnaires, of course 1 unit on 1 unit it doesn't work but that's just a stupid test as online you will never face 1 unit vs 1 unit.

The janissary
12-09-2013, 08:42 AM
Pikes with the right support are very OP yes.

Mazthoril
12-09-2013, 07:53 PM
Just to clarify my posts, I play Iceni. I'm not all upset because I'm a hellenic player who's beloved pikemen can no longer stomp an opposing army; I'm upset because it USED to be a delightful challenge to face-off against pike-based armies with my undisciplined infantry and weak missile units.

All the tactical difficulty of defeating such armies has now been thoroughly flattened, though. Pikes are now easy to beat, and there is no satisfaction in winning something which is easy. And unrealistic.

Seienchin
12-09-2013, 08:25 PM
Pikes still are completly OP for their money.
Spartan Pikemen no matter if real spartan or peiroikai are way better than any hoplite unit the other greek states can field and they are cheap.
Of course the best units in the game like Oathsworn can be a thread to pikemen but still pikemen are the best unit to hold a long line.
Its just irritating that Pikemen naturally have an open spot between them when you set them up. Thats pretty stupid.

MyNameBeatsYours
12-09-2013, 08:29 PM
Just to clarify my posts, I play Iceni. I'm not all upset because I'm a hellenic player who's beloved pikemen can no longer stomp an opposing army; I'm upset because it USED to be a delightful challenge to face-off against pike-based armies with my undisciplined infantry and weak missile units.

All the tactical difficulty of defeating such armies has now been thoroughly flattened, though. Pikes are now easy to beat, and there is no satisfaction in winning something which is easy. And unrealistic.

I won't argue the realism point, because there is no point, it's a Total War, barbarians march in perfect units and have scorpions. Yes, the AI is not a challenge, and since it can no longer sometimes get 'overpowered' pike based armies, it cannot really give you much of a challenge anywhere. In multiplayer, everyone still uses pikes to great effect.



Its just irritating that Pikemen naturally have an open spot between them when you set them up. Thats pretty stupid.

Units in shogun didn't even leave spaces between them... Why not copy-paste the good things...

poerk55
12-09-2013, 08:57 PM
Phalanx units in RTW2 should work the way they did in RTW1.

Slaists
12-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Yes, pikes are overpowered. This is especially true when using them against the AI, which has no concept of flanking maneuvers at all.

Some solutions (all assuming spacing is returned to pre-patch):

1) reduce the rate of 'knockback' that the pikes cause to allow opposing infantry to eventually shove their way through.

2) leave the knockback and dramatically decrease the killing potential as suggested earlier.

3) add a major morale penalty whenever a phalanx is forcibly broken, to simulate panic caused by disarray.

4) longshot solution is to simulate the effect of infantryman gradually severing the heads of the pikes as they make contact, which I believe is historically accurate.

edit: Divide Et Impera reduces all kill speeds, which makes the pike 'shoving' effect a major gameplay mechanic. I'm not sure if this is different from vanilla.

Hmm, what's this, especially #1!? Is that for patch 7? Pikes have been extremely nerfed with patch 7 (they stand now in some weird loose formation), and indeed, sword infantry can now push themselves inside a pike formation from the front. That is totally BS (no matter what the quality of the sword infantry)... And you want more of that?

Romans did not win pikes by pushing themselves between the pikes. They won pikes by outmaneuvering the slow pike formation.

greyarcher
03-02-2014, 09:41 PM
yes, head on pike men are THE best unit type, beating all others. Get almost any other type of unit flanking them or charging from behind, well they will die quickly. Lemonater47 pretty much spells out the only strategy I use to beat them.

Edit: dont ask why i decided to look at this old thread.

Seienchin
03-02-2014, 10:46 PM
I like phalanx after patch 9 in melee. They dont destroy enemies as fast as before but are pretty impregnable from the front.