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View Full Version : CA PLS Urgent Fix For Multi Clan System



BlindKing
03-09-2011, 01:21 PM
Implement ELO And Max 50 players for clans

After Release it would be too late trust me(veteran online player over 15 years) ....

DON'T RUIN... THE WHOLE MULTİ SECTION OF GAME

THINK after one week one big clan rules all japan and gets all bonuses and perks for all its 1500 1600 players :p

and than reTHINK the situation rest of veteran players (((:mad:)))

DenmarkRules
03-09-2011, 01:45 PM
and gets all bonuses and perks
What's that? Never heard of any other bonuses than retainers and I'm not sure you'll get any from controlling the map.

And why do you post this now when the game isn't even released? Do we know that there isn't a limit for clans?
And we have a almost similar topic. You should might consider discussing it theere :)

rayrox222
03-09-2011, 03:53 PM
I thought ELO was implemented. What other rating system would there be for these rated matches? As for limiting members who can join a clan, why bother? It's totally, at least I think, going to be a great concern that everyone is a quality player. Losses count against your clan, you know, and if 1200 if your 1500 players continuously lose game after game after game, they will fail to acquire regions due to so many losses, and the other 300 who win consistently won't make up the difference.

I thought bonus of controlling the entire map was that it started you over on a fresh map of Japan and you simply then compete with a higher level of players who likewise were able to conquer the map of Japan in the previous tier.

Soveliss99
03-09-2011, 04:01 PM
It should be implemented in legendary mode to make it harder or something. smaller starting position, no clan bonuses?

GrudgeNL
03-09-2011, 04:10 PM
"Don't ruin the whole multi section" What the...

How do you even know if it's ruined, if you never played it :/
Please guys, stop making assumptions about a Game that has not yet been released.

Maybe there will be a Player limit per Clan.

And btw, the Multiplayer Map where you conquer regions is not the Clan Map as far as i know.
With all the experience CA has, there is no reason to say ''it will ruin it the game''.

greagsby46
03-09-2011, 04:18 PM
Implement ELO And Max 50 players for clans

After Release it would be too late trust me(veteran online player over 15 years) ....

DON'T RUIN... THE WHOLE MULTİ SECTION OF GAME

THINK after one week one big clan rules all japan and gets all bonuses and perks for all its 1500 1600 players :p

and than reTHINK the situation rest of veteran players (((:mad:)))

lol, its too late already if this was the case. THe game is in mass production and probably being shipped to everywhere.

So Cry Moar Mr VET

Sanjuro
03-09-2011, 04:45 PM
lol, its too late already if this was the case. THe game is in mass production and probably being shipped to everywhere.

The game is software, not hardware. It can be modified after release with patches. ;)

However, I would suggest people stop the "OMG CA CHANGE THIS NOW" posts. They will doubtlessly be focusing on sorting out some problems they were aware of for a patch on release day or soon afterwards. Wait until release to provide feedback - and in relation to multiplayer, try playing it for a week or so first.

WolfSwoosh
03-09-2011, 04:47 PM
lol, its too late already if this was the case. THe game is in mass production and probably being shipped to everywhere.

So Cry Moar Mr VET

LOl cry moar mr VET i love it :) let me guess greagsby46 you will be in one of the Mega clans of 400+ randomly invited players? What hes saying is of great concern to alot of people who have thought of the consequences of the current system - it remains to be seen however if these mega clans do pop up.

The door is wide open for this to happen but we will see soon enough if it does. CA can change it if it does ruin things but then they have 400 angry nubs to contend with from these mega clans. and nothing is scarier than an angry nub! :)

Mistersmoooo
03-09-2011, 04:59 PM
I disagree with OP.

1) Bonus and retainers depend on your 1V1 battles and your own battle in clan league.

2) Elo seems to be in the game already for 1V1 leaderboard. But whatever, there are several levels of league and Elo suck realy when you carsh against a noob.. So i think there is no problem here.

3) I am totaly against these 1500 mens public casual historical clans groups but.... i d'ont care....i will crush hundreds of them if i have to and they will collapse after some days.

Aidan Rhane
03-09-2011, 05:10 PM
From what I've read of the clan system, a small, organised and experienced clan will probably be able to gain far more points than a 'mega' clan of disorganised players of varying abilities.

On top of that, a big clan means only a few will probably get access to the top bonus'. Players will feel left out because there's not enough love to go around and will probably split into smaller clans anyway.

This may be a problem (if indeed it even is one) that sorts itself out naturally. But yeah, until the game is out we'll not know.

Shireknight
03-09-2011, 05:16 PM
There's not much point making suggestions until after you've played the MP modes, Ninja Will will be explaining the MP features in more detail over the next few weeks and any ideas you have would probably be best put forward then -Moved to MP forum.

Mojoman
03-09-2011, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by WolfSwoosh
LOl cry moar mr VET i love it let me guess greagsby46 you will be in one of the Mega clans of 400+ randomly invited players? What hes saying is of great concern to alot of people who have thought of the consequences of the current system - it remains to be seen however if these mega clans do pop up.

The door is wide open for this to happen but we will see soon enough if it does. CA can change it if it does ruin things but then they have 400 angry nubs to contend with from these mega clans. and nothing is scarier than an angry nub

This post gets a +1 and a hooOOowl :)


Originally posted by Aidan Rhane
From what I've read of the clan system, a small, organised and experienced clan will probably be able to gain far more points than a 'mega' clan of disorganised players of varying abilities.

I hope you are correct.

Speaking for myself, I want to be leader of a clan, not a ******g corporation.

RTKBarrett
03-09-2011, 06:37 PM
The game would be far more interesting if it were not based on a WIN only count. Why people would want to be part of something so massive that they mean little to the big picture is beyond me. I dont know if you should limit clan numbers, but for definite there should be a system which weighs wins/losses and awards/takes away points accordingly.

Skurkanas
03-09-2011, 07:46 PM
I thought ELO was implemented. What other rating system would there be for these rated matches? As for limiting members who can join a clan, why bother? It's totally, at least I think, going to be a great concern that everyone is a quality player. Losses count against your clan, you know, and if 1200 if your 1500 players continuously lose game after game after game, they will fail to acquire regions due to so many losses, and the other 300 who win consistently won't make up the difference.
As far as i know, at least the highlightened part is wrong.
There is no statement from CA that loosing battles will be punished. In fact, i think there are quite some dev posts stating the complete opposite. This is the whole reason why people fear that big clans will ruin the system. If every game, be it win or loose adds to the points of your clan, the mass clans will just zerg their way to the top.

As for people who blame the OP for bringing this up before release, think twice. It's far easier to fix a problem now, than to fix it when the damage is done. Why wait till it "really" happens, just to end up alienating huge amounts of players, by forcing them to disband their clan, loose "unfairly" gained clan bonusses etc etc.
It's true that this might not be an issue anymore, since there already is a workaround, but in that case CA should at least tell us.

Otherwise, it's really important that threads like this are made, to call CA's attention and prevent a massive (and pretty uneccessary) outcry after release.

hooma
03-09-2011, 07:53 PM
i dont think its a problem if in a league is a big clan if its the only 1. cause the ppl of all clans didnt fight against ppl from same clan. so if a clan has > 50% of the player of the complete league the chance to getting on from the big clan is very high. so u can build a counter army against that clan. the next thing is if the malus for loosing a fight has the same hight how getting points for a win, than the chance to get good players from a big clan is very low, so the little clans with good communication via teamspeak or ventrilo will with high chance beat a big clan with poor communication. and at least, the big clan cant get more fights cause he must fight against 1 from the same league. and if nothing from the little clans are online the cant get points

so i think if the ppl see that 50% from the big clan cant fight cause there are no more opponents they will split

ImS
03-09-2011, 11:08 PM
I got some good news for those who is a bit worry about the biger clans. I was reading a bit here http://blogs.sega.com/totalwar/2011/03/09/multiplayer-the-clan-competition-and-you/ And now i understand allot more how this will work. You can read on this site how the points system work. So here is my thinking. Say if there is many good clans who is fighting for one region It will end up that the best clan with the best ppl who will win the region. For say if one of the bigest clan have many ppl they need to win over you. if they not are abel to win over other good clan who is fighting for the same region they will not get enough victory points. And good part is when u own a region the clans who whant to win that region over you they stil need to fight with ur ppl on that region and if they are not abel to win they will not be abel to win the region. So therefor good team work with ur clan and the ppl with in ur clan is the kye for defending. The tuff part is in the start of the map is to get enough rigion befor the bigest clan get it. but the hardest part is for the bigest clan is to defending the rigions when other clans is attacing so if they dont have good ppl to defend it they will lose. and when they have so much ppl they cant control all the ppl. So the bigest clan will have a big problem. So there is the strategy for all the ppl for having a good game. The rest is up tp the best clan and the best tactical leaders to win :D So to be a big clan and having allot fo random ppl is not good after all ;)

Kronos
03-09-2011, 11:43 PM
No. Just no...

say you have two 1000 member clans and 23 other small clans. The two big clans will end up getting wins off of each other so much that no one else will be able to keep up. You don't ever actually own a region and defend it, you fight in that region and the person with the most victories wins at the end.

ImS
03-09-2011, 11:55 PM
No. Just no...

say you have two 1000 member clans and 23 other small clans. The two big clans will end up getting wins off of each other so much that no one else will be able to keep up. You don't ever actually own a region and defend it, you fight in that region and the person with the most victories wins at the end.

Are you 100 % sure of that you will not own region? Its way i understood it. So say if 2 clans whant to fight a battle in that region is market that i own. They will maybe end up in the battle feald. and not my clan? If so i totely miss understand it.

And one more thing. The clan with most victory points own the region. When will the map be updatet then. will it be updatet each 24 h. Or will it be like after 10 min it might be the other clan who owns it. And if u dont own any region i might be wipet out of map if ur are not abel to defend your regions

Walker
03-10-2011, 12:01 AM
I have to agree with the limiting how many people are in a clan, because the rules CA has put in the plate are too much to handle for small clans, if we're talking about provinces taken, and wins, its all about numbers. It all seems a bit unrealistic don't you think?

iR1ce
03-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Look at it this way. The most important factor is the WIN. You have to actually DEFEAT your opponent. And you have to actually OWN a region to get extra points.
In other words, you can't win unless you WIN.

Walker
03-10-2011, 12:11 AM
R1ce if were talking about numbers then the majority will surely gain more points, simple logic

hooma
03-10-2011, 12:57 AM
the logic isnt simple as u think

in a big clan cant be only good ppl. and i think that they need to fight against the enemy clans... so lets think again...

if there is 1 big clan with 1000 member and 10 small with 10 member... what do u think will happen? right, from the big clan can max 100 ppl play at a time. so they dont get more points. why? simple, because its a big clan there are more noobs than in a single clan where ppl are improven and teached. so the chance that the small clan will win is simple higher. it not possible for the big clan to improve who will fight for a region and who not... yeah the total number of fights of the big clan will be higher than a single small clan. but it cant be higher than all small clans together. u know the battle on the thermopylen??? whats the purpose of a big clan if not all can fight at the same time?

so whats happen next? yeah the chance to fight against the big clan is even higher as against the other small clans. so if the clan is specialized so your task is simple to counter that. if he specialize on horses, get the most of your armies with yari and so on... its simple spr. and the next thing that will happen is, the small clans get more experience than the big, cause they fight more often. but the simple point that not all from the big clan can fight is that they will split or get broken.

all assumed, that the fight of a region is only be done by ppl of the same league.

Walker
03-10-2011, 01:00 AM
thats like saying 100 people suck because they have higher numbers

RTKPaul
03-10-2011, 01:06 AM
the logic isnt simple as u think

in a big clan cant be only good ppl. and i think that they need to fight against the enemy clans... so lets think again...

if there is 1 big clan with 1000 member and 10 small with 10 member... what do u think will happen? right, from the big clan can max 100 ppl play at a time. so they dont get more points. why? simple, because its a big clan there are more noobs than in a single clan where ppl are improven and teached. so the chance that the small clan will win is simple higher. so whats happen next? yeah the chance to fight against the big clan is even higher as against the other small clans. so if the clan is specialized so your task is simple to counter that. if he specialize on horses, get the most of your armies with yari and so on... its simple spr. and the next thing that will happen is, the small clans get more experience than the big, cause they fight more often. but the simple point that not all from the big clan can fight is that they will split or get broken.

Your initial parameters are way to extreme and downright incorrect. First off there is very little likelihood that 1 clan would constitute 90% of a campaign map. It also doesn't have to be as extreme as you say with 1000 members.

A MP Campaign map will have 25 clans. So if 1 has lets say 500 members and the other clans have an average of 20 members they your entire premise totally falls apart.

A much better way check Super Sized clans would be to give penalties for losses.

Walker
03-10-2011, 01:11 AM
Your initial parameters are way to extreme and downright incorrect. First off there is very little likelihood that 1 clan would constitute 90% of a campaign map. It also doesn't have to be as extreme as you say with 1000 members.

A MP Campaign map will have 25 clans. So if 1 has lets say 500 members and the other clans have an average of 20 members they your entire premise totally falls apart.

A much better way check Super Sized clans would be to give penalties for losses.


Now we are talking! im sure other variables could be put in place to limit huge clans from simply running over lesser clans

hooma
03-10-2011, 01:35 AM
Your initial parameters are way to extreme and downright incorrect. First off there is very little likelihood that 1 clan would constitute 90% of a campaign map. It also doesn't have to be as extreme as you say with 1000 members.

A MP Campaign map will have 25 clans. So if 1 has lets say 500 members and the other clans have an average of 20 members they your entire premise totally falls apart.

A much better way check Super Sized clans would be to give penalties for losses.

you know there is already a clan >= 1227 members? i think the average clansize at the moment is at 10... i has visit a lot of steamgroups to check and at think 10 is the average.... so think again

and if we talking with your parameters so the only point that falls apart is the counterarmy... anything is simple the same, just think about it.

RTKPaul
03-10-2011, 02:25 AM
Its not the sheer numbers as I originally posted. The number 500 or even 1k is arbitrary. The RATIO which you propose is what is EXTREME. Also you stated 10 clans of 10 members to Further exaggerate the premise. This when we KNOW that a Campaign Map will have 25 clans.

Your point of a Super Sized Clan having noobs is hardly a setback because the Devs have said they will not penalize bad players. So their collective Win XP (and any XP they receive for losses) will count towards the Clans total. Even if they only win a 1/4 of their matches they would still kill the other clans in the Campaign Map with sheer numbers.

The other false premise of your argument is that the Super Sized Clan can only play members from its own Campaign Map. There is nothing that says this. It simply says Campaign MP will use Match Making Battles.

hooma
03-10-2011, 02:38 AM
i dont see a different between 1000 and 10x10 and 1227 and 25x10!

so how do u will know how the match making system works? what is a purpose of a league if not fight against ppl of same lvl? next time u should read the whole post. i wrote my text assumed that only fights are between ppl of a league.

the next thing u dont understand is yeah the clan xp is the same. but not for the individual avatar. it depends on your fights. also i dont say a big clan is full of noobs. but the chance that are player in a clan with bad skills is even higher as in a small clan. cause the whole clan loop them through by the count.

please get common-sense before u post. thx!

Langly1087
03-10-2011, 02:44 AM
I thought ELO was implemented. What other rating system would there be for these rated matches? As for limiting members who can join a clan, why bother? It's totally, at least I think, going to be a great concern that everyone is a quality player. Losses count against your clan, you know, and if 1200 if your 1500 players continuously lose game after game after game, they will fail to acquire regions due to so many losses, and the other 300 who win consistently won't make up the difference.

I thought bonus of controlling the entire map was that it started you over on a fresh map of Japan and you simply then compete with a higher level of players who likewise were able to conquer the map of Japan in the previous tier.


losses do not count against your clans points. Don't make me pull out the facts.

hooma
03-10-2011, 03:06 AM
yeah but is will be stupid that 5 or more looses count as 1 win.

Shireknight
03-10-2011, 03:28 AM
Ok there are so many misconceptions in this thread that's it's totally giving the wrong impression of how things will work however I'll clear one up for you. Firstly it's highly unlikely that any clan will manage to get 50 active players in it. Now assuming a clan does actually do that and those 50 players all fought a battle in the same region then yes I agree that that region would practically be impossible to take back off them again because the accumulation of clan ownership points would be so great however the clan campaign map doesn't work like that, every avatar fights in his or hers region in which their standing on the main map so although you may have 3 clan members fighting online on the same battlefield they are in fact fighting for the region where they are physically standing on the map, this is what the golden clan token that Will talks about is for, it's so that you can coordinate your battles however in reality the regions you will be fighting over will be vast distances apart and it's really not that feasible for you to just nip across the map and fight in the same region.

And then of course once that round is completed clans either get promoted or demoted and everyone starts with a fresh map again so the slate is clean.

ImS
03-10-2011, 03:59 AM
To make this clear then. I am not sure if this system is only for the leaderbords thing. But i have heard that when i win battle you will meet other players in a same lvl. So if this is same in clan multiplayer. And if you do good u will only meet another good player. So there will not be a easy win when you play a battle. So if a big clan with random player in it will meet other random player. So this will allso help that a big clan will not get a easy win.

TrenchKnife
03-10-2011, 04:18 AM
Ok there are so many misconceptions in this thread that's it's totally giving the wrong impression of how things will work however I'll clear one up for you. Firstly it's highly unlikely that any clan will manage to get 50 active players in it. Now assuming a clan does actually do that and those 50 players all fought a battle in the same region then yes I agree that that region would practically be impossible to take back off them again because the accumulation of clan ownership points would be so great however the clan campaign map doesn't work like that, every avatar fights in his or hers region in which their standing on the main map so although you may have 3 clan members fighting online on the same battlefield they are in fact fighting for the region where they are physically standing on the map, this is what the golden clan token that Will talks about is for, it's so that you can coordinate your battles however in reality the regions you will be fighting over will be vast distances apart and it's really not that feasible for you to just nip across the map and fight in the same region.

And then of course once that round is completed clans either get promoted or demoted and everyone starts with a fresh map again so the slate is clean.

Well that sort of clears the muddy waters a bit ... just a bit. I do have to point out that the reason for so many misconceptions really is because so little proper detail on the system has been released ... and here we are less than a week away.

"Firstly it's highly unlikely that any clan will manage to get 50 active players in it." Now, why is that? One clan comes to mind has over 1,000 members. And I think the concern of folks isnt just that a big clan would mob a single province, but they could mob every province on the map round the clock.

But Im probably not understanding the system ... I would love to be able to educate myself by reading a top-to-bottom detailed and crystal clear description of the clan competition system from CA, but there aint one.

Shireknight
03-10-2011, 05:32 AM
Will will be giving more information soon ;)

Zoonp
03-10-2011, 06:26 AM
Gathering over 50 players will be very easy if you are a part of a huge community. There are already many Shogun 2 clans that have over 100 members and the game isn't even released yet.

Langly1087
03-10-2011, 09:07 AM
you best hurry up with that info Shire.....So many people are so misguided it boggles my mind.

Im not saying i know exactly how the system works but I think I have a pretty good idea.

IncubusDragon
03-10-2011, 10:56 AM
Apart from the game mechanics that he's already explained, I think what Shire's getting at is that when clans are so big, they are unmanageable. It's simply human nature that mega-clans will be carrying a LOT of dead weight - and when the dead weight "contributes" to their clan by turning up on the battlefield, they'll be getting their @sses handed to them on a plate on a regular basis, effectively "gifting" influence points to the opponent.

Massive clans rarely have the cohesion & discipline of smaller hard-core clans that work hard to fight in unity on the battlefield e.g. in a 3v3 battle, the tight-knit clan operates as a single army rather than facing off into 3 1v1 fights on the same map. That kind of discipline will slaughter the casual slackers that can hardly remember their clannie's names, let alone how they deploy and fight.

Zoonp
03-10-2011, 11:02 AM
Even if the huge 1000 men clans had a lousy winning rate of 10% they would still easily get more than 100 wins a day and most other clans would not be able to compete with them.

Walker
03-10-2011, 02:32 PM
Zoonp once again someone is saying that just because a clan is big that all the players in that big clan suck?

Look loses dont give - negative points it actually adds points so even if 10% wins and the rest lose, just because they have a acquired so many points they will be on top,

TO shireknight, Im not sure if you've looked around but there are many clans in place with more than 1oo Active players ready to roll

As we will find out, once the game is released we will start seeing Super Clans ruling the multiplayer system.

Shireknight
03-10-2011, 02:57 PM
TO shireknight, Im not sure if you've looked around but there are many clans in place with more than 1oo Active players ready to roll

As we will find out, once the game is released we will start seeing Super Clans ruling the multiplayer system.

We'll see what happens but personally I can't see any clan having 100 active players, I'll eat my hat if I see one. Remember a Steam group with 100 members is not the same thing as a Shogun 2 clan with 100 active members.

Walker
03-10-2011, 04:47 PM
We'll see what happens but personally I can't see any clan having 100 active players, I'll eat my hat if I see one. Remember a Steam group with 100 members is not the same thing as a Shogun 2 clan with 100 active members.

I'm gonna save what you've just said for future preference, and I agree with your comment regarding we'll have to wait and see, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out the system, how it works and how to exploit it.

Kronos
03-10-2011, 08:10 PM
We'll see what happens but personally I can't see any clan having 100 active players, I'll eat my hat if I see one. Remember a Steam group with 100 members is not the same thing as a Shogun 2 clan with 100 active members.

Do you have a prefered hat?

100 members is nothing when you recruit indiscrimanately. I've literally seen "clans" of 2000 active members before, the game only supported 500 so they made "families". All you need to do is find any random person who plays the game and invite them. Provided there's enough people who will be playing, then everyone will be looking for a clan so it's easy. Even if half of them give up after a day or two there will be a never ending supply of new players if the MP is as big as CA want it to be.