How hold firm 'should' work

[Marshal Suchet]

Just a short post; this is how I think hold firm should work

+2 melee defence
+2 morale
Radius/area of effect similar to warcry

I think this way you more or less get what you pay for - it'll give you a small localised rally-like ability that will be helpful in shoring up a wavering line, but not so strong that it can tip a melee combat by itself.

I also think that Banzai should drop to 70 koku to reflect the fact that it is nowhere near as useful as hold firm.

What do you all think?

[TheCrazyCat]

2 def? thats just plain ****
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=527221

1 attack is basically 2 def, rather just get inspire if hold firm is gonna be this useless.

[Marshal Suchet]

+2 morale +2 defence for several different units all for a mere 140 koku? How is that poor return on your money? It'll be affecting about 3 units on average every time you use it for about 45 seconds, so you are basically getting 480 koku worth of buffs for an ability that costs a third of the price.

Better than inspire and banzai by far.

In any case it'd fix so many of the issues that people have been having with hold firm, which is extremely strong for its cost right now with the unbreakable morale.

[(Darkelf) Temper]

What I think.

I'd be comfortable with your suggestion on Hold Firm.But I'd be more comfortable with it affecting just the unit that has it.

While I hate the idea of an unbreakable morale push button ability,I hate more the fact that three units with Hold Firm can cover almost an entire army for an amount of time that makes a huge difference to the outcome of an engagement.

I think that Banzai should be fixed period.

[TheCrazyCat]

+2 morale +2 defence for several different units all for a mere 140 koku? How is that poor return on your money? It'll be affecting about 3 units on average every time you use it for about 45 seconds, so you are basically getting 480 koku worth of buffs for an ability that costs a third of the price.

Better than inspire and banzai by far.

In any case it'd fix so many of the issues that people have been having with hold firm, which is extremely strong for its cost right now with the unbreakable morale.

its not a mere 120 koku, its a lvl 9 units 120 + 4 basic and 4 other upgrades. so its basically 520-600 koku. You must calculate the requirements to be able to acquire that ability. And Last time I checked weren't you one of the few who kept giving many solutions in dealing with hold firm units? And If your saying Hold firm > Inspire your definitely wrong, Inspire = over 1 min duration compared to a mere 30 secs for hold firm. 3 attack = faster killing power which would be offsetted by 6 def. Even if it was for one unit 3 attack vs 2 def unit to unit. And you can also give an inspire to missile units as well which gives better bonuses that a stand and fight boost. Plus we should be prioritize on other fixes before this, like things that actually need fixing, preferably the CRASHING every time for many players on my friend's list.

[Marshal Suchet]

So? Those upgrades make the yari ashigaru unit pretty dangerous so I don't see why I should have to factor them into account in relation to the ability. You get what you pay for and then some when you throw hold firm into the mix. They are certainly better than their loan sword counterparts with banzai.

Cav units that are fully specced with hold firm are pretty dangerous too - you get what you pay for with them.

Yes, hold firm is counterable with highly armoured units, or otherwise just by shooting the HF units to death, but its still an ability that needs to be tweaked so that its balanced in relation to all of the other abilities on offer. At +3 defence and unbreakable morale for 45 seconds you really are getting much more than what you really paid for. Inspire and banzai are in no way comparable at the current moment and they cost just as much.

Crashing has nothing to do with this post - I am simply trying to put forward a proposal that CA can change as and when they have the time to do so and if they feel that what I am proposing is a good fix. Besides where is the rule that all I can talk about on the MP forum are game crashes?

[TheCrazyCat]

So? Those upgrades make the yari ashigaru unit pretty dangerous so I don't see why I should have to factor them into account in relation to the ability. You get what you pay for and then some when you throw hold firm into the mix. They are certainly better than their loan sword counterparts with banzai.

Cav units that are fully specced with hold firm are pretty dangerous too - you get what you pay for with them.

Yes, hold firm is counterable with highly armoured units, or otherwise just by shooting the HF units to death, but its still an ability that needs to be tweaked so that its balanced in relation to all of the other abilities on offer. At +3 defence and unbreakable morale for 45 seconds you really are getting much more than what you really paid for.

Crashing has nothing to do with this post - I am simply trying to put forward a proposal that CA can change as and when they have the time to do so.

ANY unit is dangerous if you know how to use them. I mean theres times I find the hold firm cav useless when they are fighting Great Guards(with just 1-2 attack upgrades) and the unbreakable morale was reduced to 30 secs. That I like. However IF ANY UNIT you should be wary of, is a Hold firm bullet proof sam. But I think the changes is enough for now, it is better for more of us to gain a much more detailed opinion after playing the game for 2-3 days but its hard to see if the changes they made is enough because of the horrible problems that occur.

Crashing might not have anything to do with this post but I am just saying I think its too soon to make judgment on the hold firm seeing that most of us also lost our hold firm units to see if the changes CA made had a big difference.

[Yannos]

What I think.

I'd be comfortable with your suggestion on Hold Firm.But I'd be more comfortable with it affecting just the unit that has it.

While I hate the idea of an unbreakable morale push button ability,I hate more the fact that three units with Hold Firm can cover almost an entire army for an amount of time that makes a huge difference to the outcome of an engagement.

I think that Banzai should be fixed period.

That is so correct. A clicky that affects more than one units is instantly more cost effective than any one unit buff. Specially once in the case of yari ashi vs loansword, yari ashi is more useful on battlefield. Way more useful.

[brvtvs]

Whatever makes the unbreakable morale go away, there's no other upgrade that comes close to it. This should have been dealt with ages ago.