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Thread: BEars should cost more

  1. #11
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    Complaining about the amount of line infantry people bring even though that's the bulk of your options to choose from because of the time frame.

    Sad part is that it's not even the strongest setup using a ton of line infantry and people just keep playing the norm and complaining instead of changing how they play and their army composition to roll over line infy spam.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Brigadier Colonel Mallard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsx1986 View Post
    They're just ill informed players who aren't aware of the fact that bear units use much slower muzzle loading guns.
    Also people keep complaining that players "spam" units. Okay, so what counts as unit spamming in this game?
    If I were to bring 7 line units of the same kind, I would be considered a spammer, correct? But if I were to bring 1 black bear, 1 white bear, 1 red bear, 1 imp inf, 1 sho inf, 1 imp guard inf, 1 sho guard inf, would you still call me a spammer because I brought 7 different line units? Probably not.
    But in my honest opinion, they are both the SAME. They both bring 7 line units, and they both rely on similar 'line them up and shoot' tactics. By this definition, the only way NOT to "SPAM" would be to bring some melee, some line, some skirmish, and some cavs, perhaps with an art unit if you will.
    I wish people would stop with all this "I hate bear spammers" nonsense.
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Mallard View Post
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.
    Sure, if you bring tortoises for heavy line shooting, they'll be useless. But when I use them, I use them in melee builds, where I don't want to spend too much on line units, but to bring none is going to get a lot of my melee units killed. So I bring about 3-4 tortoises just so they can line up against enemy line units and shoot a couple of volleys while I bring in my melee from a better angle without getting razed down. For this purpose, even vanilla tortoise units do just fine. The problem comes when you try to use them as your core.
    You can't simply say that a unit is OP just because you think one unit fares better than another similar unit in one or two circumstances.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Field-Marshall Marshal Suchet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Mallard View Post
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.

    Every unit should be equally cost effective, it should all depend on how you use them, what units you use them in combination with and whether you spam them or not. It shouldn't just be because they are the designated OP unit before the next patch. Take marathon monks for example; better melee, worse numbers, tiny speed improvement. They simply aren't worth it, because they can't pull their weight in melee, and their speed bonus is so tiny that the enemy will see the from a mile away. They don't even have rapid advance; there's no reason to bring them. That to me is the sort of situation that needs to be fixed by the people balancing the game.
    There are many different choices for people to make and for advanced players the diversity in the line units really allows you to pick and choose the type of army that you want and to optimise it best in a way that suits you.

    I am a cav player first and foremost - I am too lazy to be bothered with the kiting duels that always happen the moment that you encounter another player with the same number of extended range units as you do and when you both have similar cavalry arms. Rather than spending a huge amount of money on black bears with the customary extended range or 2 x reload, I decide to take eight cavalry instead and then back these up with as many black tortoises as I can afford. Sometimes I will change this setup and go for 7 cav and 1 extended range unit, usually a marine. If I didn't take the cheaper black tortoises I wouldn't be able to afford the real hitting arm in my force, which is ultimately the cavalry rather than the infantry. So, black tortoises have their uses - white tigers are also very useful if you're running a cavalry based force and only need to use your infantry in a supporting rather than a main line role.

    Nobody uses the white bears and this seems very strange to me as they are one of the best all round units in the game - far more useful, especially on the dense terrain maps than the black bears, as they will hold out much better in melee and have shooting stats that are almost as good. They also cost less, which means that you have more money spare for additional unit upgrades, or for other troops types than what you would with a black bear core. Paying 6 x 50 koku extra for half a dozen black bear units does add up and takes away a lot of money that you could spend elsewhere on elite units or veterancy upgrades.

    Red bears are perhaps more limited, but they could be useful as skirmish units to take into terrain heavy maps as their higher melee stats will mean that they'll hold up better in melee combat. They may also be more useful as flanking forces in support of cavalry as their stats will give them much greater resistance to cavalry attacks. They're a specialist unit in my view though, but not without their uses.

    Azure dragons are nice when you have money leftover than you just can't spend - they might be useful as a stronger ranged core for a cav army. I am sure most players will figure out very quickly that they are not a main line unit and are more something that you bring if you need to fill a gap for the most part.

    Vermilion birds are good as a cheap inspiring unit - at 1000 they are very useful in small numbers, playing a supportive role to the main force. Shinsensgumi are excellent multi-purpose units that you can use to give a mixture of melee capabilities and firepower to a rush type build - I've been using them fairly effectively on my rush account - although it wouldn't be wise to run them as a core.

    Imperial/shogunate infantry/ guard and marines are all useful as top tier choices and are probably the best units to put extended range on given the fact that they are hard to take down with cav and because they start out with strong stats from the beginning.

    So all the ranged units have their purpose - some are more useful as main line units, others as specialists or cav support troops and some make for conveniently priced gap filler. None of them need to be rebalanced as none of them are particularly OP or poorly priced. Just leave them as they are and be done with it. Most players will pick the units that work for them, based upon trial and error and their own experiences in the game.
    Last edited by Marshal Suchet; 04-28-2012 at 03:13 PM.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Mallard View Post
    But imagine this. If I brought the number of vetted azure dragons of which people bring bears, I would probably lose. That is the problem. This one line unit is (among those that use muzzle loading rifles, at least) more cost effective than it should be in comparison to the others. Go ahead and bring as many black tortoise as you could with the money you normally use on bears, and see how that works. You lose, most certainly, unless you opponent is a noob. Sure, you can bring a few more troops overall than usual. But it doesn't quite compensate. Do they have some other skill? Do they have good melee attack? More men than usual? Special abilities? No. They are quite simply another unit of line you will never bring because out of however many there are, they aren't one of the three cost effective ones.
    Black bears are pretty on par with equally costing vetted azure dragons and vetted black tortoise in shootout tests that I ran. Another person infected by this black bear syndrome?

  6. #16
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    Why get Azure Dragons when you can spend 40 more and get White Bears which gives you +5 reload/accuracy and +1 melee/defense. I still think its ridiculous that we have 3 bears units that cost between 800- 850.

    imperial players are out in force to protect their care bears.
    Last edited by Mosc; 04-28-2012 at 09:38 PM.

  7. #17
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    ^
    I'm an imperial player and I don't even use bears really maybe 1 or 2 tops sometimes to finish off my koku when I have 800-850 left and I don't feel like toying with my funds, but most matches of mine I don't even play with them. So I don't know who you are referring to when you say "imperial players are out in force to protect their care bears". It makes no difference what I am because very rarely do I use my one rank 9 imperial cav and my one rank 9 black bear that I have. In fact sometimes I wish I was the shogunate clan so I could get the rank 9 ammo upgrade for the revolver cav because I love that unit and would love to vaporize more units with just one revolver cav and happy pay 500 koku to do that over buying another revolver cav to fit certain builds I wanna use.

    Anyway who cares about a miniscule balance issue between azure dragons and white bears. The shootout difference is barely noticeable... like I said test it out yourself I already did or do I need to once again make another test video? Black tortoise vetted with reload/accuracy costing 860 out perform black bears by a very very small amount costing just 10 more koku, so yeah lets complain about that as well shall we? What dose it matter there are 3 different bears anyway... they aren't OP, so why give a ****.

  8. #18
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    I use vanilla whitetigers as my shooting force. Bears cost too much.

  9. #19
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    Just because you don't use them doesn't mean others don't. It's about having options and being a Shogunate player feels limited when wanting to have mid price linemen to upgrade as a main line unit. Apparently people do care about the miniscule balance. Again, just because you don't care, doesn't mean other don't.

    Make all the test videos you want it, still doesn't mean jack when you add in battlefield conditions. Tortoise have 6 morale compared to bears 8. Meaning they route a lot faster especially against cavalry, suppression fire or artillery. Morale is a big factor and Tortoise are unreliably due to this. Notice how people say that Azure Dragons and black Tortoise aren't made to be used as a main line unit? But its ok for bears to be?

    Bears aren't OP, but they are cost effective which is the problem and no one can deny that. The only bear unit that i think is fine are red bears. I want balance and variety in this game and i grow tired of seeing Black/White bears + Marines consistently.

    If you rarely use vetted imperial units then switch to Shogunate. Whats the hold up?

  10. #20
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    Why change something that isn't broken? lvl2 BB's aren't even cost effective at all,vanilla Imp/Shog line infantry cost 10 more with +5 more ammo. and shoot faster than BBs. White/Black bears arent even a threat, people who just spam line infantry wouldn't even know that, because they don't use melee units. People who field balanced armies would know that someone who fields just line infantry is pretty easy to beat. Tortoises/Azures make a good compliment in balanced armies due to their cheap cost.

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