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Wikipedia doesn't have any numbers on the German troop strength. I was just wondering how combat effective they were after losing 10 000+ men, 30 tanks and a whole bunch of planes?
Oh and after operational failure of Market Garden, what was the next move the Allied did in the West?
I believe it was the Us 1st Army's Battle of the Huertgen (please pardon spelling) Forest. Combined with 3rd Army's offensive in the Saar it set up the Battle of the Bulge.
Market-Garden made some sense given the strategic context. Paris had been captured less than a month earlier. The July 20 assassination attempt on Hitler did render him less able to interfere with OKW's withdrawal, to the Siegfried Line in some places. The Allied Command could take a lot of credit for the speed of their post-Normandy advance but they didn't account for Hitler being out of the picture. They didn't understand that much of the ground they gained had been given up deliberately. The civilians in both the US and the UK were hoping the war would be over by Christmas and their generals were just too eager to please.
Montgomery had his shortcomings, but no more so than any WWII general. His critics accuse him of fighting the "Rich Man's War" (Paul Carrell) but some of that was due to his planning and logistic skills.
But the question was could it have worked. I think the use of airborne forces to secure the bridges was a great idea tactically. But it made the overall strategy too obvious. In some way I see a similarity between Market-Garden and Kursk.
"To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself."
Sun Tzu
Steam: Mountain Man
I believe it was the Us 1st Army's Battle of the Huertgen (please pardon spelling) Forest. Combined with 3rd Army's offensive in the Saar it set up the Battle of the Bulge.
The Saar offensive.. as in Saarland, Germany? Any notable battles?
Battle of Hürtgen forest is quite interesting though, it's always been over shadowed by the Bulge. But in realty Hürtgen was strategically important even though it was a defensive victory for the Axis. It helped to tie up Axis forces that could otherwise have reinforced Aachen, which could have been disastrous for the Allied.
"I just traded Finland's military to Kenya for 50 lions"
the Saar offensive (not to be confused with the half hearted French offensive in 1939) started right before the Battle of the Bulge began, so the latter kinda overshadows the Saar. As far as I know there are not really any noteworthy clashes in the Saar offensive, as the Germans threw pretty much everything they could spare into that attack. and it didn't get very far as Patton sent his forces in that area to punch through to the besieged town of Bastogne on the 22nd of December, and he reached it 4 days later.
The Battle of the Hurgten Forest started a couple days after market Garden and ended at about the same time the Bulge began. Germany basically won that battle defensively, but it was a costly attrition battle for both sides.
"we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre
I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner
"No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder
To be honest, I wouldn't mind a Red Orchestra 2 expansion that would cover most of the battles that's been discussed in this thread. Tripwire is probably the only developer that could do it justice without all the Hollywood bs.
"I just traded Finland's military to Kenya for 50 lions"
Wikipedia doesn't have any numbers on the German troop strength. I was just wondering how combat effective they were after losing 10 000+ men, 30 tanks and a whole bunch of planes
As history has shown quite effective. But it wasn't like the Allies really threw all they had towards Arnhem either. They seemed to have assume the Germans were shattered and will only keep running if they kept the pace of activities; it was like they expected only token resistance and geographical space to be their only obstacle in achieving success.
It feels like part of the initial skepticism of the plan was the question of "what are the Germans gonna do?" And it seems the high command failed or refused to entertain that question at a serious level. They seemed to have every confidence that the "airborne thing" will work even when unexpected problems occur. Of course that's only valid if things like radios worked, which they didn't.
Ultimately Market Garden is like the Allies' own attempt at making a blitzkrieg style pincer advance...with only one actual pincer.
Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
Comments
Market-Garden made some sense given the strategic context. Paris had been captured less than a month earlier. The July 20 assassination attempt on Hitler did render him less able to interfere with OKW's withdrawal, to the Siegfried Line in some places. The Allied Command could take a lot of credit for the speed of their post-Normandy advance but they didn't account for Hitler being out of the picture. They didn't understand that much of the ground they gained had been given up deliberately. The civilians in both the US and the UK were hoping the war would be over by Christmas and their generals were just too eager to please.
Montgomery had his shortcomings, but no more so than any WWII general. His critics accuse him of fighting the "Rich Man's War" (Paul Carrell) but some of that was due to his planning and logistic skills.
But the question was could it have worked. I think the use of airborne forces to secure the bridges was a great idea tactically. But it made the overall strategy too obvious. In some way I see a similarity between Market-Garden and Kursk.
Sun Tzu
Steam: Mountain Man
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBattle of Hürtgen forest is quite interesting though, it's always been over shadowed by the Bulge. But in realty Hürtgen was strategically important even though it was a defensive victory for the Axis. It helped to tie up Axis forces that could otherwise have reinforced Aachen, which could have been disastrous for the Allied.
The awesome World War 1 Thread
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThe Battle of the Hurgten Forest started a couple days after market Garden and ended at about the same time the Bulge began. Germany basically won that battle defensively, but it was a costly attrition battle for both sides.
I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner
"No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder
The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1
I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeThe awesome World War 1 Thread
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner
"No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder
The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1
I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeUPDATE:
The sequel to this thread is up, time to discuss The Schlieffen Plan!
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/110456-The-Schlieffen-Plan-Could-it-have-worked
this thread is still open to new thoughts however, continue to present your arguments and counter-arguments if you wish!
I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner
"No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder
The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1
I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAs history has shown quite effective. But it wasn't like the Allies really threw all they had towards Arnhem either. They seemed to have assume the Germans were shattered and will only keep running if they kept the pace of activities; it was like they expected only token resistance and geographical space to be their only obstacle in achieving success.
It feels like part of the initial skepticism of the plan was the question of "what are the Germans gonna do?" And it seems the high command failed or refused to entertain that question at a serious level. They seemed to have every confidence that the "airborne thing" will work even when unexpected problems occur. Of course that's only valid if things like radios worked, which they didn't.
Ultimately Market Garden is like the Allies' own attempt at making a blitzkrieg style pincer advance...with only one actual pincer.
Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree