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The New Culture System

CA_ThamisCA_Thamis The Creative AssemblyPosts: 150Registered Users, CA Staff
edited April 2014 in Total War: ROME II
I've already posted this in another thread, but I'm afraid it might get lost, and other people might be wondering about it. Here's an explanation of how the new culture system works:

Culture is completely provincial. So every settlement in a province contributes to this province's culture. If a province is divided between several factions, the provincial culture still is the same for ALL settlements of ALL factions in that province. With that we want to simulate culture spreading across borders (at least within a province).

In each province, there is a cultural equilibrium towards which the culture always tends. For example, if a province has 6 Latin cultural influence and 4 Hellenic cultural influence, the equilibrium would be 60% Latin and 40% Hellenic. Another example: With 4 Celtic and 2 Germanic influence, the equilibrium would be at 66.6% Celtic and 33.3% Germanic.

Now the current cultural breakdown will shift always towards the equilibrium. For example, if the equilibrium would be at 60% Latin and 40% Hellenic (6 Latin & 4 Hellenic influence), but the current cultural breakdown is 70% Latin and 30% Hellenic, then Latin would decrease and Hellenic would increase (even though Latin has a higher cultural influence than Hellenic), until the equilibrium is reached. The further a culture's percentage is from its desired equilibrium percentage, the bigger the change per turn is. This means that when a new culture enters a province, it will grow quickly at the beginning and then slow down when it gets closer to its equilibrium.

As soon as the cultural influence of any culture in a province changes (for example, because a building is constructed, or a dignitary enters the province), the equilibrium values are updated and the cultures will shift towards this new equilibrium.

A province's "local traditions" are just another cultural influence factor that is always there, which cannot be changed. Most provinces have a sum of 4 local traditions influence points (shared between cultures), while some "cultural capitals" such as Rome or Alexandria have stronger local traditions. Local traditions also mean that provinces cannot be converted 100% to a foreign culture -- added realism.

I hope I could help you understand the new system. If you think there's a bug, we would need the following information from you:
- Current cultural breakdown of the province for each culture
- Change per turn for each culture in the province
- Total cultural influence for each culture in the province

Thanks for posting, and hopefully have fun with Caesar in Gaul!
Post edited by CA_Thamis on
Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
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Comments

  • NellynielNellyniel Junior Member Posts: 25Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Bump, to keep this in everyone's view!
  • DodoDodo Banned Posts: 488Banned Users
    edited December 2013
    Thanks.
    (now fix siege AI pl0x)
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  • Sharpy13Sharpy13 Senior Member Posts: 132Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Great post Thamis, could you Sticky it to the top of the forums?
  • SmiboySmiboy Senior Member Posts: 124Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    yeah someone sticky this **** before it gets buried :p
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  • Sirius 21Sirius 21 Senior Member Palermo, ItalyPosts: 1,617Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Please, add this to the encyclopaedia.
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  • SeienchinSeienchin Senior Member Posts: 2,956Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    While this is a nice thought it creates a lot of Problems and cultural unrest is extremly high!
    Wont it make the AI even less likely to have an empire?
  • CA_ThamisCA_Thamis The Creative Assembly Posts: 150Registered Users, CA Staff
    edited December 2013
    No, because the AI likes to convert. :-)
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • GfileGfile Senior Member Posts: 415Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    +1 for explanation. What happens if we own whole province and there is no outside influence (aka dignitaries)? Then what can cause rebellion? Previous culture or near by enemy border? To be more specific i am dealing with it in one of my provinces (whole province owned - converting from celtic to germanic) ...i have only temples (that add +1/+2 germanic culture) and food building built in all tree settlements without having buildings that add squalor and -public order and yet even with dignitary placed there (8 star) and full 2 stacks of army placed in settlement (2 out of 3) i still get -20 public order and spawn of rebels each turn... maybe some ghost spy is causing it? It shouldnt because i have 2 spies near by. Its just that i have to hold 2 full army for 10 turns without any clue how to convert this province and get rid of rebels. I didnt start a new campaign after patch 8 and not using any mod? Is there now a specific regions that simply refuse to accept new culture beside Rome and Alexandria? After 10 turns it should be fully converted, no?
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  • CA_ThamisCA_Thamis The Creative Assembly Posts: 150Registered Users, CA Staff
    edited December 2013
    When you mouse over your province's happiness display, you can see a precise breakdown in the tooltip what is creating unhappiness. And no, fully converting a province takes far more than 10 turns... Also, you can never "fully convert" to 100% if your culture is a foreign culture. You can get close, if you have a huge culture production, but you won't be able to hit 100%.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • Sirius 21Sirius 21 Senior Member Palermo, ItalyPosts: 1,617Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    The real problem of this game is that this kind of informations are hidden by the UI.
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  • stealthnskstealthnsk Senior Member NovosibirskPosts: 1,166Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Seienchin wrote: »
    While this is a nice thought it creates a lot of Problems and cultural unrest is extremly high!
    Wont it make the AI even less likely to have an empire?

    If you control the province and do something to counter the culture tradition, you have like -3 or -4 public order penalties.

    If you share province with someone, or there are other influence sources, that's different story.
  • friendlydogfriendlydog Senior Member Posts: 435Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    interesting, I thought it was like this from the start (release version).
  • BankitBankit Senior Member Posts: 260Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    So Thamis, you wanted to make the game virtually impossible to play at any higher difficulty than medium? Because if, lets say i conquer an entire Germanic province with the Romans i will have to spam temples that increase the happiness or cultural influence indefinitely in order to keep the people happy and not have to deal with rebellions every 5 turns?

    And if we have to call this realism, then you'd have to take into consideration that after a certain amount of time the default foreign cultural influences should STOP existing, since that would be unhistorical.

    Romanization and Hellenization for example were real, people in certain areas that previously were for example of Celtic or Illyrian culture were in time converted to the new way of life, and we all know that "way of life" IS culture. So this needs to change ASAP and if some hardcore players who favor challenge over realism want it, it could be implemented into a mod or for the legendary difficulty.

    It's historically wrong after all as i explained here.Please fix it.
  • TW Is My LoveTW Is My Love Senior Member Posts: 399Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Thanks
    ==
    Sassanid Monarchy Coming Soon
  • Ashbery76Ashbery76 Senior Member Posts: 508Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    I like it.It is actually more realistic than EU4's silly press a button to convert a whole culture.The home culture would never vanish in this time scale.
  • bigfootedfred2bigfootedfred2 Senior Member Posts: 1,707Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    CA_Thamis wrote: »
    I've already posted this in another thread, but I'm afraid it might get lost, and other people might be wondering about it. Here's an explanation of how the new culture system works:

    Culture is completely provincial. So every settlement in a province contributes to this province's culture. If a province is divided between several factions, the provincial culture still is the same for ALL settlements of ALL factions in that province. With that we want to simulate culture spreading across borders (at least within a province).

    In each province, there is a cultural equilibrium towards which the culture always tends. For example, if a province has 6 Latin cultural influence and 4 Hellenic cultural influence, the equilibrium would be 60% Latin and 40% Hellenic. Another example: With 4 Celtic and 2 Germanic influence, the equilibrium would be at 66.6% Celtic and 33.3% Germanic.

    Now the current cultural breakdown will shift always towards the equilibrium. For example, if the equilibrium would be at 60% Latin and 40% Hellenic (6 Latin & 4 Hellenic influence), but the current cultural breakdown is 70% Latin and 30% Hellenic, then Latin would decrease and Hellenic would increase (even though Latin has a higher cultural influence than Hellenic), until the equilibrium is reached. The further a culture's percentage is from its desired equilibrium percentage, the bigger the change per turn is. This means that when a new culture enters a province, it will grow quickly at the beginning and then slow down when it gets closer to its equilibrium.

    As soon as the cultural influence of any culture in a province changes (for example, because a building is constructed, or a dignitary enters the province), the equilibrium values are updated and the cultures will shift towards this new equilibrium.

    A province's "local traditions" are just another cultural influence factor that is always there, which cannot be changed. Most provinces have a sum of 4 local traditions influence points (shared between cultures), while some "cultural capitals" such as Rome or Alexandria have stronger local traditions. Local traditions also mean that provinces cannot be converted 100% to a foreign culture -- added realism.

    I hope I could help you understand the new system. If you think there's a bug, we would need the following information from you:
    - Current cultural breakdown of the province for each culture
    - Change per turn for each culture in the province
    - Total cultural influence for each culture in the province

    Thanks for posting, and hopefully have fun with Caesar in Gaul!

    ive been hoping for something like that since getting to jerusalem and watching the jewish % disapear. mtw i think.

    thank you. that sounds really good. il have a proper play on 8.1 and see what else. huge update..
    thanks.
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  • VilmurinVilmurin Senior Member RomaniaPosts: 1,015Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    I salute this decision. Great idea. Good job at this CA.
  • korpahkorpah Senior Member Posts: 148Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    thanks for the information!
    CA should make more information posts like this! keeps us happy ;):p
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  • Sirius 21Sirius 21 Senior Member Palermo, ItalyPosts: 1,617Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Bankit wrote: »
    So Thamis, you wanted to make the game virtually impossible to play at any higher difficulty than medium? Because if, lets say i conquer an entire Germanic province with the Romans i will have to spam temples that increase the happiness or cultural influence indefinitely in order to keep the people happy and not have to deal with rebellions every 5 turns?

    And if we have to call this realism, then you'd have to take into consideration that after a certain amount of time the default foreign cultural influences should STOP existing, since that would be unhistorical.

    Romanization and Hellenization for example were real, people in certain areas that previously were for example of Celtic or Illyrian culture were in time converted to the new way of life, and we all know that "way of life" IS culture. So this needs to change ASAP and if some hardcore players who favor challenge over realism want it, it could be implemented into a mod or for the legendary difficulty.

    It's historically wrong after all as i explained here.Please fix it.
    Play the game and you'll see you're wrong. Just build one temple with a +3 influence and you'll beat the local traditions.
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  • SeienchinSeienchin Senior Member Posts: 2,956Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    stealthnsk wrote: »
    If you control the province and do something to counter the culture tradition, you have like -3 or -4 public order penalties.

    If you share province with someone, or there are other influence sources, that's different story.
    Well seeing that most huge AI empires in my Game are getting destroyer by unrest i guess -3 or -4 wont make that big of a difference
    but still! Sometimes AI builds only Temples in a settlement to Counter unrest...
    Well Ill see for myself
  • GfileGfile Senior Member Posts: 415Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    CA_Thamis wrote: »
    When you mouse over your province's happiness display, you can see a precise breakdown in the tooltip what is creating unhappiness. And no, fully converting a province takes far more than 10 turns... Also, you can never "fully convert" to 100% if your culture is a foreign culture. You can get close, if you have a huge culture production, but you won't be able to hit 100%.
    That is a nice change, because previously all we had to do is to spam temples and we would have 100 culture with 100 (+20) po in freshly conquered lands ....so there was no need to even peek to those provinces later in the game and zero need for army to be present.

    For which i personally dont like in this new "building affect whole province" thing, is that there is no need to have military building in all settlements to suppress rebellions and no need for guvernors:( like previously. Maybe too much simplified to my taste even though edicts for example is brilliant idea.

    Its because unlike Rome 1 where we had a huge influence by general (individual) traits ...for example if the general had corruption trait and being hated by local people we would get huge -happiness and therefore we got more rebellions.

    In Rome 2 we lack of any connection with our generals, with no family tree present (and this is a huge let down, personally ...not having individual traits good or bad, but only generic and those that "act" like individual traits dont really have any effect on public order.)
    So, if this is the case with culture now, we will have to deal with more rebellions and spend more time holding army in our settlements then on conquest ...and more use of dignitaries.

    Ps: About victory conditions (for cultural)...its pretty unrealistic for barbarians to go conquering whole africa in order to get enough settlements where their culture is present, 60 provinces is too much of unhistorical regions grind for Suebi. :P
    I know its now less in numbers for vc with patch 8 but it didnt change in my current campaign and its too hard to go all over again since i have 200 turns in on very hard.
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  • stealthnskstealthnsk Senior Member NovosibirskPosts: 1,166Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Seienchin wrote: »
    Well seeing that most huge AI empires in my Game are getting destroyer by unrest i guess -3 or -4 wont make that big of a difference
    but still! Sometimes AI builds only Temples in a settlement to Counter unrest...
    Well Ill see for myself

    I actually played it on Hard. No problems at all.

    There are a lot of reasons why the system could cause unrest for AI. They could share province between factions, for example.
  • grayhatgrayhat Senior Member UKPosts: 4,082Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Seienchin wrote: »
    Well seeing that most huge AI empires in my Game are getting destroyer by unrest i guess -3 or -4 wont make that big of a difference
    but still! Sometimes AI builds only Temples in a settlement to Counter unrest...
    Well Ill see for myself

    The effect of cultural tension seems to have been moved so instead of -3 / -4 the actual effect on the AI is +4/+5
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  • SeleuceiaSeleuceia Junior Member Posts: 28Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    I find this system to be beautiful...it forces you to build/upgrade temples, which in turn forces you to build/upgrade food producing improvements, meaning you have to really balance the food/squalor...previously you could get away with one temple (if even that) per province and then scrap it after happiness and culture were the way you liked it...
  • SeienchinSeienchin Senior Member Posts: 2,956Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    grayhat wrote: »
    The effect of cultural tension seems to have been moved so instead of -3 / -4 the actual effect on the AI is +4/+5
    Really??
    That sounds Strange at First but i guess it is a good idea!!
  • MrStaggerLee69MrStaggerLee69 Junior Member Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    This is all well and good.. But aren't we still waiting on an explanation of the political system?
  • AudaxAudax Senior Member Posts: 708Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    Please add this in the encyclopedia.

    Or at least in a advisor speech.
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  • gnuffi-c-gnomegnuffi-c-gnome Senior Member Posts: 1,166Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    CA_Thamis wrote: »
    No, because the AI likes to convert. :-)

    really? on what difficulty setting?

    because in all my campaigns i doubt i have seen teh AI ever go for "conversion"

    it will however happily build 3 of the same identical buildings, often military ones, like armory, and such
    in many cases i've seen AI not even have a single temple in a province, even less temples with conversion bonus(since conversion pre patch 8 would often happen on its own however slow)

    so unless you are giving more "hidden bonus stats" to the AI, i doubt we will see the AI spam a culture conversion building in each region/slot to help with public order from cultural penalty
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  • Khan DEVASTATORKhan DEVASTATOR Senior Member Posts: 917Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    This makes sense to me conceptually. However, my concern would be that the "normal" practice to increase happiness (and counter cultural differences, etc.) is to build temples. This will likely mean that more temples will need to be built and usually the downside to temples is increased food consumption.

    I feel that the food penalties are pretty stiff especially at level 4 buildings. Has anyone thoroughly tested the balancing of the need for additional "happiness" structures against their drain on food?
  • The janissaryThe janissary Senior Member Posts: 391Registered Users
    edited December 2013
    just a question. Is there anywhere i can see what 'local tradition' my provinces have?
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