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Odrysian Kingdom Unit Roster in Serious Need of Revamping

ItharusItharus Senior MemberPosts: 6,592Registered Users
edited June 2014 in General Discussion
Thracians were known for tons of skirmishers, brutal melee warriors, and good horsemen.

Starting with Missile Infantry: Thracian Peltasts - they need a little buff to their melee attack and damage, IMO. They just aren't improved enough from the Thracian Skirmishers to be worth any additional cost unless you're rolling in money.

Spear Infantry: Where are they? Thracians never really went for the whole heavily armored hoplite deal, but they certainly had spearmen. They should at least get a unit of some light spearmen (militia hoplite-ish) and hopefully a unit of some medium spearmen - unless you'd like to give a cavalry option that has a good bonus v large so that there is actually some anti cavalry units in the roster (which would be tight). Even if you go that road though - SOME ****** little spear unit of some sort would be nice.

Missile Cavalry: I'm actually quite fond of the javelin throwing Thracian cavalry. Bravo. However, Odrysians also had some horse archers. Not up to Persian or Steppe snuff, ofc, but they were there and frankly the OK should have some, on par with the Getae ones, really. Not a stretch considering that at one point the OK ruled the Getae's area. Also - it would be the ONLY even REMOTE counter Odrysian Kingdom has to horse archers. So really, a bow-cavalry unit is pretty important to have - and it's historically accurate. Win/Win. If horse archers of some variety are not added, steppe tribes will roll Odrysian Kingdom forever with zero effort on the battlefield (non siege).

Melee Cavalry: Thracian Horsemen are all right. Thracian Royal Cavalry are acceptable. The whole cavalry throwing javelins on the charge thing is pretty cool. I do believe there should be another cavalry option added though - one that has a bonus v. large! Thracians AFAIK never bought into the whole sarissa cavalry bit, but they did have spears and long spears. IMO there's three options here: 1) improve Thracian Horsemen to be a bit better at anti-infantry (i.e. add a bonus v. infantry) and then grant Royal Thracian Cavalry a bonus v. Large - I think this is probably the best option and the least work. 2) Add a dedicated anti-large cavalry unit to the roster (also a good option, and probably more fun for fans). 3) Add a shock-cavalry unit - probably the least thematic option and feels like a cop-out.

Melee Infantry: I love Thracian Warrios and their noble counterparts. They are the freaking No-Dachi Samurai of Rome 2. Where's the Katanas, though? The sica was the NATIONAL WEAPON of the Thracians. What's a sica? It's basically a nasty little one-handed falx. You could probably treat it's damage profile similarly to an axe for dmg and armor penetration - except that it's a sword - which means it takes full advantage of blood-pack animations - YAY! To wit: a medium armored, decent shield (i.e. a large crescent shield or a thureos), sword-infantry with some armor penetration. This is DESPERATELY needed. Also, a lower tier version with light or no armor would be good to have, too, and like the existing Thracian Warriors could show a difference between regular and noble. Thracians NEED some infantry with shields, and this would be thematic as hell, historically appropriate, fun, and useful.

Shock Cavalry: Not necessary so long as one of the melee cavalry gets converted to anti-large or a new anti-large melee cavalry gets added in.

Anyway, that's my two cents on what the Odrysian Kingdom needs in order for players to really have a good shot at bring about a Thracian Empire.

On an entirely separate note: Balkan cultures need their own architecture that's a mixture of Hellenic and Barbarian, IMO.

-Itharus
Post edited by Itharus on

Comments

  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Posts: 1,370Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Uhm... Not to rain on your parade but both thracian horsemen and thracian royal cav get a +10 bonus vs infantry and a +15 bonus vs cav and large.

    Odryisian kingdom could use some spears though. The cav units require tech to access and before you have it you have 0 anti-cav. A melee unit of some kind (Even a low-tier unit such as levies or a skirmisher unit with decent melee stats akin to agrianian axes) would be nice too.
  • Xirius The GreatXirius The Great Senior Member Posts: 414Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    I agree on the culture building stuff, and really on the spearmen part. Why can't they have pikes? They shouldn't be like footcompanions but just normal pikemen that do the job. They're influenced by the Macedonians. I've said it before and i'll say it again: I think the most urgent units they need are normal/decent spearmen, militia pikes and normal pikes, as well as mid-tier infantry and/or infantry with shields. I think the peltasts are fine, and the cavalry is also ok if you ask me.
    "The unholy offspring of lightning and death itself."
  • Lucius_Cornelius_SullaLucius_Cornelius_Sulla Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Actually, the peltasts were their infantry. After their javelins ran out they fought with their swords and really they were quite effective. But they usually carried 2 or 3, not the endless javelin spam we have in the game.

    I couldn't find any reference for thracian spearmen anywhere.
    "I'm holding a burning torch. Your argument is invalid."
    Publius Cornelius Scipio at the siege of Carthage, 146 BC


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  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Posts: 1,370Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Actually, the peltasts were their infantry. After their javelins ran out they fought with their swords and really they were quite effective. But they usually carried 2 or 3, not the endless javelin spam we have in the game.

    I couldn't find any reference for thracian spearmen anywhere.

    this could be a solution but peltasts would need a better weapon (shortswords are horrible) and slightly better melee stats. Perhaps trade 50% of their ammo for that? I'd also love to see a more heavily armored hellenized version

    Europa Barborum had Thracian spearmen (for the Getai) They were really low-tier but they were there! Doubt that counts as a souce though :P
  • Shamefurr DisprayShamefurr Dispray Senior Member Posts: 162Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    A mail/scale armoured thracian warband unit would fill the huge gap between the Thracian Nobles and Warriors. Some light/medium armoured Hoplites, Pikemen and Swordsmen would also be nice.
  • MatmannenMatmannen Senior Member Posts: 1,235Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    They need a non- noble high tier rhomphaia unit. Not as good as the nobles, and missing inspire but still high tier, and make nobles more expansive. The nobles should be a special unit, not a standard to fill your entire armies with in late game, it is as redicules as armies of Praetorians...
  • peugeot407peugeot407 Senior Member GueldersPosts: 1,362Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Did the Thracians never use pikes? It seems to me that the people of a region that's had its history so very much intertwined with that of Macedon would have surely seen fit to copy the Alexandrine phalanx...
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  • Shamefurr DisprayShamefurr Dispray Senior Member Posts: 162Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Matmannen wrote: »
    The nobles should be a special unit, not a standard to fill your entire armies with in late game, it is as redicules as armies of Praetorians...
    They cost more than the Praetorians, and have an aversion to missiles.
  • jonathanridings@gmail.com[email protected] Senior Member Posts: 1,054Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    It seems to me that what Thracia should have gotten the Heavy Archer / Peltast variants that Getae got, as well as a basic spear unit.
    I havent played them yet, but their unit roster is really small. If I were to play them I'd probably make mostly cav armies.
  • TomislavTomislav Senior Member Posts: 651Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Spear infantry - I think they should at least have a garrison unit and a low tier unit. (similar to Dacian Tribesman and Spears)
    Melee infantry - I think all the Balkan cultures need Sica units. (I've heard that it was the Illyrian "National Weapon" as well, but they all used it regardless of where it came from.)

    I don't think anymore cavalry or missile units are necessary though. The Getae were known for their cavalry and were closely connected with the Sarmatians. So I don't see why they would have less cavalry than the Odrysians.

    I doubt CA will ever make another architecture type.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,592Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Uhm... Not to rain on your parade but both thracian horsemen and thracian royal cav get a +10 bonus vs infantry and a +15 bonus vs cav and large.

    If that's true, they need to update the tool tips and encyclopedia because I'm not seeing it.

    To Lucius - they used a lot of melee-infantry types as well, and the thracian peltasts in-game certainly are not very effective (at anything other than throwing javelins - which they do admittedly well).

    Regarding Pikes: I don't think it was ever their cup of tea.

    Above all the rest (especially if Sji is correct about the cavalry), it's the melee infantry that I would like to see changed the most. Thracian Warriors die to missile fire faster than just about anything other than Mobs. It's crazy - they need something with a shield badly! Plus sicas are just awesome sauce.
  • TomislavTomislav Senior Member Posts: 651Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Itharus wrote: »
    If that's true, they need to update the tool tips and encyclopedia because I'm not seeing it.

    Most Barbarian melee cavalry* has +10 vs infantry and +15 vs large. The encyclopedia has a lot of problems. (Look at Noble Horse in-game, +10 bonus vs infantry but in the encyclopedia it says they don't have any)

    Edit: * After looking over unit stats again it seems like most spear armed melee cavalry have these bonuses.
  • TheSitomotanianTheSitomotanian Member Posts: 57Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Actually, the peltasts were their infantry. After their javelins ran out they fought with their swords and really they were quite effective. But they usually carried 2 or 3, not the endless javelin spam we have in the game.

    I couldn't find any reference for thracian spearmen anywhere.

    Make the faction unique :D Make their spears have 2-3 javelins then they function like regular spear inf. Their skirmishers would then be bowmen.
  • RonBurgundyRonBurgundy Senior Member Posts: 2,343Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    If you use Maf's thracian unit mod, it adds a few well needed units to each of the factions. I know that doesn't help with multiplayer.
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  • HrcoHrco Senior Member Posts: 118Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    The one thing Thracians desperately need is some low tier basic melee units in their garrisons. These could be like the steppe spearmen for Nomad factions; they're garrison only and cannot be recruited. Either that or buff the melee stats peltats on their peltats to make them a respectable close combat unit.
  • Lucius_Cornelius_SullaLucius_Cornelius_Sulla Senior Member Posts: 426Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    this could be a solution but peltasts would need a better weapon (shortswords are horrible) and slightly better melee stats. Perhaps trade 50% of their ammo for that? I'd also love to see a more heavily armored hellenized version

    Europa Barborum had Thracian spearmen (for the Getai) They were really low-tier but they were there! Doubt that counts as a souce though :P

    Honestly, I'd rather prefer that CA should have added a unique "Thracian Peltast" unit, similar to Royal Peltast, even though not so OP.
    "I'm holding a burning torch. Your argument is invalid."
    Publius Cornelius Scipio at the siege of Carthage, 146 BC


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  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,592Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Tomislav, are you getting your stats from the game files themselves?

    How do other Odrysian players feel about their anti-steppe peoples options? Without infantry with a decent shield to catch some arrows, or horse archers of their own... I for one get stomped. Even if I load up on slingers/archers/scorpions - I have nothing to protect them worth a ****ed. My own cavalry get out-sped, out ranged, and generally just kited to death. Thracian Warriors melt like snow in death valley to arrows, and the skirmisher units do, too. It's a bit frustrating - given that Royal Scythia always declares war.
  • TomislavTomislav Senior Member Posts: 651Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Itharus wrote: »
    Tomislav, are you getting your stats from the game files themselves?

    How do other Odrysian players feel about their anti-steppe peoples options? Without infantry with a decent shield to catch some arrows, or horse archers of their own... I for one get stomped. Even if I load up on slingers/archers/scorpions - I have nothing to protect them worth a ****ed. My own cavalry get out-sped, out ranged, and generally just kited to death. Thracian Warriors melt like snow in death valley to arrows, and the skirmisher units do, too. It's a bit frustrating - given that Royal Scythia always declares war.

    http://www.honga.net/totalwar/rome2/

    It's pretty reliable. That, some spreadsheets people have made and just looking at the units in-game.

    For instance all sources say Noble Horse has +10 vs infantry, except the encyclopedia. (The +15 vs large is not displayed in-game or the encyclopedia but all other sources have that as well)
  • GrandChamp89GrandChamp89 Senior Member Posts: 1,534Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    I agree with Thracian missile cav and medium spears. Other than that, they're fine.
    "It's the hottest fire that forge the strongest steel"
  • Steppeup2Steppeup2 Senior Member Posts: 368Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    their roster is fine they do well enough for what they have. Hey most roster in the game could use 2-5 units but other than that I can see how someone couldnt work around their few flaws.
  • tak22tak22 Senior Member Posts: 2,384Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    I think I read somewhere that Philip of Macedon was (possibly) inspired in the development of the pike phalanx by a long Thracian spear that gave him trouble in a battle. Which is not to say that they should get pikes, but spears of some sort might be appropriate. (Although, given several decades of Macedonian domination in the area, including one of the successor states being based out of Thrace, some low level pikes wouldn't be entirely unthinkable.)

    I like the 'heavy peltast' option a couple folks mentioned higher up, too. Still more focused on skirmishing than the Hellenic sword units, but tough enough to mix it up in melee in a pinch, against decent troops, and to absorb some missile fire (since that's what seems to be a big complaint about the roster).
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,592Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    their roster is fine they do well enough for what they have.

    They quit being fine pretty quick as everyone else techs up and you encounter factions beyond your immediate starting borders. Not every army has to have every possible thing; I'm not asking for legionary imitations, or cataphracts, or very heavily armored hoplites - but I am asking for the faction to get what they should have. There's actually a surprising amount of information on the web about Thracian warfare throughout the centuries just 10 seconds of Google search away.
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