Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

The Campaign AI does not get free armies [now sticky]

Watcher CAWatcher CA The Creative AssemblyPosts: 23CA Staff
edited February 2013 in Total War: Shogun 2
There has recently been a lot of discussion about the possibility that the Campaign AI is spawning armies to increase the difficulty to the player.

To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:
  • The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
  • Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
  • Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
  • European Traders, the Black Ship.

Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies. Don't assume that because an agent can see some location that an army isn't there waiting to ambush.

I hope this clarifies things!
Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
Post edited by Watcher CA on
«134567

Comments

  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,087Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited March 2011
    Nice, this should be a sticky. Although I think you forgot one. When one ( either the player or another AI Clan), liberates a Great Clan, doesn't this liberated Great Clan also starts with a full Stack army ? I am almost sure an AI clan liberated the Mori Clan and started with a full stack army. Or does this also stands for the 'Rebellion' ?
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Okay, good to get some CA answers on this.

    I will admit, the hidden armies do frustrate me at times, it's good to know that the AI doesn't have to cheat to be hard. :)
  • JermJerm Senior Member Posts: 168Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Watcher wrote: »
    There has recently been a lot of discussion about the possibility that the Campaign AI is spawning armies to increase the difficulty to the player.

    To be clear, the Campaign AI does not spawn additional forces except under the following four circumstances:
    • The Ashikaga faction. To represent the idea that the Shogun could place a levy upon his subjects and to improve game play the Ashikaga gets some free units.
    • Rebellions, these troops are the result of a spontaneous (or incited) uprising.
    • Wako pirates, they are pirates and not subject to normal rules!
    • European Traders, the Black Ship.

    Any other forces you encounter are the result of the AI's recruitment through normal channels.
    On harder difficulty levels the AI gets some (minor) recruitment bonuses that may allow it to field armies more quickly than the player.
    On easier difficulty levels the AI is penalised and you should be able to out produce it.

    Besides normal troop recruitment the AI can also acquire forces through the normal defection and bribery mechanics.

    Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies. Don't assume that because an agent can see some location that an army isn't there waiting to ambush.

    I hope this clarifies things!

    It may be impossible to prove if the ai does spawn or does not spawn troops. Just like a saying a watermelon is blue inside until cut. Unless a developer says they do get free armies, then we can say 100% yes they AI get free armies.

    However, with that said, it is widely reported:

    1. After winning a big battle, suddenly the AI is capable of coming back with huge stacks when they just lost a few stacks in battle.
    2. (relating to point 1) after beating the AI stacks, and going to diplomacy screen. The strength of that faction is listed as weak. However, after one turn, they jump back to mighty or terrifying.
    3. AI comes up with stacks of experienced troops and experienced generals, ranging 4-6 stars. In early game when there could not be possible to even get that level then.

    There are many more that do support the claim the AI gets free armies, and each and every one of these have to be disclaimed to be able to say 100% the AI does not get free armies. That said, we also cannot say 100% the AI does get free armies.

    Based on my own experience, using the No CAI army spawn mod at twcenter, my personal opinion is the AI gets free armies.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Jerm wrote: »
    It may be impossible to prove if the ai does spawn or does not spawn troops. Just like a saying a watermelon is blue inside until cut. Unless a developer says they do get free armies, then we can say 100% yes they AI get free armies.

    However, with that said, it is widely reported:

    1. After winning a big battle, suddenly the AI is capable of coming back with huge stacks when they just lost a few stacks in battle.
    2. (relating to point 1) after beating the AI stacks, and going to diplomacy screen. The strength of that faction is listed as weak. However, after one turn, they jump back to mighty or terrifying.
    3. AI comes up with stacks of experienced troops and experienced generals, ranging 4-6 stars. In early game when there could not be possible to even get that level then.

    There are many more that do support the claim the AI gets free armies, and each and every one of these have to be disclaimed to be able to say 100% yyes the AI gets free armies. That said, we also cannot say 100% no the AI does not get free armies.

    Based on my own experience, using the No CAI army spawn mod at twcenter, my personal opinion is the AI gets free armies.

    Dude, look at the OP's avatar.

    He's from the Creative Assembly.

    A dev.
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,087Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited March 2011
    Jerm wrote: »
    It may be impossible to prove if the ai does spawn or does not spawn troops. Just like a saying a watermelon is blue inside until cut. Unless a developer says they do get free armies, then we can say 100% yes they AI get free armies.

    However, with that said, it is widely reported:

    1. After winning a big battle, suddenly the AI is capable of coming back with huge stacks when they just lost a few stacks in battle.
    2. (relating to point 1) after beating the AI stacks, and going to diplomacy screen. The strength of that faction is listed as weak. However, after one turn, they jump back to mighty or terrifying.
    3. AI comes up with stacks of experienced troops and experienced generals, ranging 4-6 stars. In early game when there could not be possible to even get that level then.

    There are many more that do support the claim the AI gets free armies, and each and every one of these have to be disclaimed to be able to say 100% yyes the AI gets free armies. That said, we also cannot say 100% no the AI does not get free armies.

    Based on my own experience, using the No CAI army spawn mod at twcenter, my personal opinion is the AI gets free armies.

    ''Personal opinion''' ? how the heck can you have an opinion on that ? If CA already states they didn't gave the AI free armies, then the AI doesn't get free armies. It's simple as that.
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • DunlorDunlor Senior Member Posts: 559Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Dude, look at the OP's avatar.

    He's from the Creative Assembly.

    A dev.

    doesn't make make Jerm's points any less true
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    GrudgeNL wrote: »
    ''Personal opinion''' ? how the heck can you have an opinion on that ? If CA already states they didn't gave the AI free armies, then the AI doesn't get free armies. It's simple as that.

    I do not think that Jerm realized who the OP was, because he has one post only and we are used to seeing other devs with higher number posts around.
  • JermJerm Senior Member Posts: 168Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Dude, look at the OP's avatar.

    He's from the Creative Assembly.

    A dev.

    My bad. That explains why they get armies out so quick.

    My question will be then what does the mod do, as I definitely see the AI churn armies out much slower.
  • YngveYngve Senior Member Posts: 948Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Why would he lie about this anyway?
    .. and on occasion, I play video games.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/videogamebanana
  • DunlorDunlor Senior Member Posts: 559Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    GrudgeNL wrote: »
    ''Personal opinion''' ? how the heck can you have an opinion on that ? If CA already states they didn't gave the AI free armies, then the AI doesn't get free armies. It's simple as that.

    So how do you explain a 1 region faction, attacking my front castle, 5 turns in a row, losing all 5 times, yet comming up with a completly new army every turn, full stack, 3-5 XP rank units, along with a general?
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Dunlor wrote: »
    doesn't make make Jerm's points any less true

    How?! A developer! Who made the flipping game says that they do not get free armies, and so, do you think they would lie? Heck, I would have been okay with free AI armies in order to compensate for the lack of a human brain, maybe the whole "Weak-terrifying" thing only shows non-hidden armies, that makes sense because that is probably your spies telling you how strong they are based on their army strength.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Jerm wrote: »
    My bad. That explains why they get armies out so quick.

    My question will be then what does the mod do, as I definitely see the AI churn armies out much slower.

    I can only assume that it nerfs the AI's production slot bonus that, as the developer said, on higher difficulties they end up getting. Or maybe it's a weird mental thing, you put on the mod, thinking that the enemy will get armies slower, though it actually doesn't change, but you think it does. Who knows?
  • DigibullDigibull Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Thanks for clearing this up, Watcher. Hopefully this will curb a lot of the arguments going on.
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,087Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited March 2011
    Dunlor wrote: »
    So how do you explain a 1 region faction, attacking my front castle, 5 turns in a row, losing all 5 times, yet comming up with a completly new army every turn, full stack, 3-5 XP rank units, along with a general?

    Make a video or it didn't happen
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • MoujikMoujik Member Posts: 64Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Extra recruitment slots as a minor bonus ? :D I'm not complaining much anyway, normal difficulty is good enough for me.

    And about this:
    Also note that the AI has a tendency to hide forces and that Ninjas and other agents are not 100% effective in revealing ambushing armies.

    They are even real bad at it ! In my campaign (normal) I saw the AI park a full stack in the forest, I moved two ninjas to it to reveal the darn thing (and a metsuke through them) and still they weren't visible. I do think ninja's should be slightly better at spotting hidden units (my lord !). But maybe not, after all the AI does let itself get ambushed too, we don't really know how much of our force he can't see either.
  • JermJerm Senior Member Posts: 168Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I can only assume that it nerfs the AI's production slot bonus that, as the developer said, on higher difficulties they end up getting. Or maybe it's a weird mental thing, you put on the mod, thinking that the enemy will get armies slower, though it actually doesn't change, but you think it does. Who knows?

    Yup who knows. But I wrote the first reply without knowing the OP was a dev. So I do take the dev's word for it. As I said, those point I listed were reports and feedback, not real tested data.

    So if the AI does not get free stacks, letting them churn it out faster through bonus slots. Isn't that the same thing?

    I don't mind bonus economy, and battle bonuses, but it's like playing chess and your opponent can move 2 pieces at a time. Bad ****ogy but challenging and frustrating is quite a thin line here.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Jerm wrote: »
    Yup who knows. But I wrote the first reply without knowing the OP was a dev. So I do take the dev's word for it. As I said, those point I listed were reports and feedback, not real tested data.

    So if the AI does not get free stacks, letting them churn it out faster through bonus slots. Isn't that the same thing?

    I don't mind bonus economy, and battle bonuses, but it's like playing chess and your opponent can move 2 pieces at a time. Bad ****ogy but challenging and frustrating is quite a thin line here.

    There's a difference from "Being able to get armies faster" and "Popping armies right out of thin air", the players believed the latter, as well as I, the reason that the AI gets such bonuses is that it can never, NEVER compare to the human brain in terms of challengingness (it's a word now! :O ) and comprehending.
  • Rastafari_KenRastafari_Ken Senior Member Posts: 903Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    So maybe a Mod could lock this thread,and put the info in the FAQ so we don't have a page full of stickies.
  • TheGreatCollinsTheGreatCollins Member Posts: 68Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    That's great CA. Mash the Haters :)
  • CroftoCrofto Member Posts: 50Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Didn't realise the post was even from a CA staff member until the posts below pointed it out! I thought it was just some guy who'd played the game loads and was confident he knew that the AI didn't spawn units out of thin air. ;p

    Anyway, thanks for letting the community know the deal on this. I've not played on Hard+ so haven't encountered this phenomenon but still appreciate the knowledge.
  • JermJerm Senior Member Posts: 168Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    There's a difference from "Being able to get armies faster" and "Popping armies right out of thin air", the players believed the latter, as well as I, the reason that the AI gets such bonuses is that it can never, NEVER compare to the human brain in terms of challengingness (it's a word now! :O ) and comprehending.

    I understand your point. I play on hard and very hard too and i like the challenge. My point is, sometimes you plan to take a region, you see they just have a stronghold and an army outside guarding. You send your army out fight a close victory. Then next turn you hope to proceed to take the stronghold. End turn, voila! New bunch of guys in the garrison. It just changes the playing field entirely.

    Cheats are tolerable to a point. If you've played empire earth and max difficulty, you'll know. It's just crazy!

    Personally I don't mind a challenging game, but sometimes it get frustratng because you have to beat the system.
  • Roman35Roman35 Member Posts: 46Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I think that we have the best and most challenging ampaign AI in the TW series, so we should be glad about that fact....when you think about TTW, and actually also NTW, there was no real challenge at all for the human player.

    This time, it s not easy goin on hard levels, and i think thats what the majority was looking for. If guys find games too tough, just choose a lower level! Im really happy about the current AI and i hope it wont get easier! If the AI cheats, and does that for a more challenging gameplay, it should continue cheating.
  • RailenRailen Member Posts: 39Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I sure feels like the computer was pulling armies out of nowhere, a couple things probably contribute to this, extra recruitment slots, and the AI tends to ramp up quite a bit for wars before hand, they almost never declare war on you unless they have a full stack, or several of them to march right into your kitchen. If you defeat them and counter attack quickly you will usually get their closest province before they get to reinforce it much, however if you just try to play defense they will outproduce you, and then grind you down. What sucks about that is the only way to win a war is to attack and take provinces from them, which speeds up your expansion, which moves you closer to realm divide.
  • VerminBasherVerminBasher Senior Member Posts: 151Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Personal experience from my game on Legendary yesterday:

    Moved my general out of my castle... got ambushed by a unit of katana samurai that was hidden right outside! So yes, there are indeed a lot of hidden forces in the forest.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Jerm wrote: »
    I understand your point. I play on hard and very hard too and i like the challenge. My point is, sometimes you plan to take a region, you see they just have a stronghold and an army outside guarding. You send your army out fight a close victory. Then next turn you hope to proceed to take the stronghold. End turn, ****! New bunch of guys in the garrison. It just changes the playing field entirely.

    Cheats are tolerable to a point. If you've played empire earth and max difficulty, you'll know. It's just crazy!

    Personally I don't mind a challenging game, but sometimes it get frustratng because you gave to beat the system.

    Yeah, I guess, maybe the AI needs some sort of penalty for huge armies, like maybe they start to desert when they aren't fighting for a few years? (Honestly, who would want to live in 16th Century Japan, huddled in a forest for 10 years and never see any action, when you could be at home and wait for the player to come conquer you. ;)
  • rayrox222rayrox222 Senior Member Posts: 335Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Yep, it's not spawning units randomly but if you open up extra recruitment slots; let's say a castle gets to recruit 20 in a turn so you can explain away a full stack a turn after you wiped one out, and either their recrutiment and upkeep costs are lower or their bonus to economy on harder difficulties is so much greater they can afford to do all of this, oh yes you'll have your challenge. It's just too much for me, so I play on normal, which is fortunately far more challenging than normal has been in any total war. It's still a tad bit too easy, at which point I was annoyed to read that the AI has minor PENALTIES on normal campaign difficulty, and I would love to see a "balanced" game mode where no side gets any bonuses or penalties.
  • Roman35Roman35 Member Posts: 46Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    @Jerm
    I know what you mean, may be it can be helpful (? CA ?) to check the current STRENGTH STATUS at the diplomacy screen, so when its said moderate, the player should be aware, that the AI should at least have a full sack army somewhere, may be hidden. In that case it shouldnt be very suprising that another army appears, after overtaking a castle, just like it happened to you; and me as well...
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Personal experience from my game on Legendary yesterday:

    Moved my general out of my castle... got ambushed by a unit of katana samurai that was hidden right outside! So yes, there are indeed a lot of hidden forces in the forest.

    Awesome, I will have to try that in a VS campaign!
    rayrox222 wrote: »
    Yep, it's not spawning units randomly but if you open up extra recruitment slots; let's say a castle gets to recruit 20 in a turn so you can explain away a full stack a turn after you wiped one out, and either their recrutiment and upkeep costs are lower or their bonus to economy on harder difficulties is so much greater they can afford to do all of this, oh yes you'll have your challenge. It's just too much for me, so I play on normal, which is fortunately far more challenging than normal has been in any total war. It's still a tad bit too easy, at which point I was annoyed to read that the AI has minor PENALTIES on normal campaign difficulty, and I would love to see a "balanced" game mode where no side gets any bonuses or penalties.

    A balanced game where neither side gets bonuses or penalties? So it's basically Superior Human Brain vs. Still developing computer brain... Who wins...?
  • amadieusamadieus Senior Member Posts: 136Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Althought this is a post from CA itself, i do have a hard time believing it.

    On my Chosokabe campaign on normal, i took all of japan except the tiny island a bit north, wich has that yellow colored faction on it.
    When i send my full stack army to take it, i attacked its army on his island and pressed auto resolve because i was to lazy.
    Because of that i got a phyrric victory, and thus my army got destroyed next turn by his forces.
    But i had a other army coming in, wich arrived 4-5 turns later, and to my utter suprise they had a full stack with katana and samurai units.

    Well if that wasn't a spawning army that i dunno what it was. IT could be hiding in the forest, but then again how could they fund 2 full stack armies when having one small island town?

    So im still very sceptic about it
    The Bikkel Shogunate
  • MoujikMoujik Member Posts: 64Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    rayrox222 wrote: »
    I was annoyed to read that the AI has minor PENALTIES on normal campaign difficulty, and I would love to see a "balanced" game mode where no side gets any bonuses or penalties.

    I feel the same. Other people have been talking about it too, I do think CA will hear this since it is being voiced out quite a bit, but new features won't (shouldn't) come before bug fixes of course..
«134567
Sign In or Register to comment.