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Problems with validity of Navies

MedderaMeddera Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 47
edited March 2011 in Total War: SHOGUN 2
I had been doing a little reading lately about some of the historic battles and I was reading about Oda's invasion of the Mori, and how in order to invade and besiege one of Mori's castles he had to send his navy in. He of course lost the battle, and regrouped to design new ships and came back to eventually win the province.

So this had me thinking of what a navy really should be for. I feel like my navies should protect my provinces that are away from the front lines, but how can it?

Lets take this scenario. A player that I am not currently at war with could move his navy anywhere up and down my coasts and on any turn not only declare war, but drop his massive armies from his ships on to my coastlines before my navy ever has a chance to stop the invasion. I have a problem with this because if I have a giant navy the idea is to to be able to stop any invasion from taking place unless you first are able to defeat me in the oceans. The way things are set up now, you can declare war, drop troops on the same turn, before ever having to answer to the huge fleet sitting right next to you which is a tad bit ridiculous imho.
Post edited by Meddera on

Comments

  • drno31drno31 Member Registered Users Posts: 36
    edited March 2011
    I read someone's suggestion for this issue as it relates to Napoleon. That person suggested that if an enemy navy (or any navy for that matter) disembarks an army off on land, the army shouldn't be allowed to move for one turn (which it isn't), and if during that turn, the navy dropping the troops is defeated in battle, the army being dropped off doesn't get to reach land.

    It makes sense and prevents a faction from loading, let's say a Bow Koyaba, with a full stack army and using it to get around a superior navy with the full intention of the Koyaba being destroyed after the troops disembark.
  • VarVar Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited March 2011
    Yea, the "duck around the navy" trick is annoying.

    It should be assumed that any ship with an army on it is in your "territorial waters." Entering waters that you control should itself be an act of war. Thus, our coastlines should have a ZOC.

    Easy fix, probably will never happen.
  • SkunkOneSkunkOne Banned Banned Users Posts: 333
    edited March 2011
    I would say Drno31's idea is a near perfect way to stop this, or they should massively add range to intercept distance for ships, so that maybe they could intercept at max move range if they have not moved.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 889
    edited March 2011
    Varus2319 wrote: »
    Yea, the "duck around the navy" trick is annoying.

    It should be assumed that any ship with an army on it is in your "territorial waters." Entering waters that you control should itself be an act of war. Thus, our coastlines should have a ZOC.

    Easy fix, probably will never happen.

    I think they did do this in Medieval, except with no war for entering one's ZOC, but allows blockading of areas and cripples trade.
  • MedderaMeddera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 47
    edited March 2011
    Maybe before a landing can take place you are given the option to intercept with any fleet that is within range of the invasion force. This would definitely fix the problem.
  • SkunkOneSkunkOne Banned Banned Users Posts: 333
    edited March 2011
    walsh wrote: »
    Maybe before a landing can take place you are given the option to intercept with any fleet that is within range of the invasion force. This would definitely fix the problem.

    i just said that
  • VarVar Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited March 2011
    walsh wrote: »
    Maybe before a landing can take place you are given the option to intercept with any fleet that is within range of the invasion force. This would definitely fix the problem.

    Yes but they would need to use your fleet's MOVEMENT range, and not the intercept range. The ZOC around navies is horribly small right now.

    Granted it has to be, because of the way navies move right now. They need to allow navies to move past one another in most cases, but allow use to intercept if the enemy does anything hostile.

    Thus:
    Expand the ZOC to be equal to the navy's movement.
    Only trigger the "do you want to attack" option if the other fleet does something hostile.
  • SkunkOneSkunkOne Banned Banned Users Posts: 333
    edited March 2011
    Varus2319 wrote: »
    Yes but they would need to use your fleet's MOVEMENT range, and not the intercept range. The ZOC around navies is horribly small right now.

    Granted it has to be, because of the way navies move right now. They need to allow navies to move past one another in most cases, but allow use to intercept if the enemy does anything hostile.

    Thus:
    Expand the ZOC to be equal to the navy's movement.
    Only trigger the "do you want to attack" option if the other fleet does something hostile.

    Are my posts invisible? I said exactly what both of you said.
  • VarVar Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited March 2011
    You guys hear something?
  • SkunkOneSkunkOne Banned Banned Users Posts: 333
    edited March 2011
    Varus2319 wrote: »
    You guys hear something?

    =( You make me sad.
  • CarnagejcCarnagejc Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 569
    edited March 2011
    drno31 wrote: »
    I read someone's suggestion for this issue as it relates to Napoleon. That person suggested that if an enemy navy (or any navy for that matter) disembarks an army off on land, the army shouldn't be allowed to move for one turn (which it isn't), and if during that turn, the navy dropping the troops is defeated in battle, the army being dropped off doesn't get to reach land.

    It makes sense and prevents a faction from loading, let's say a Bow Koyaba, with a full stack army and using it to get around a superior navy with the full intention of the Koyaba being destroyed after the troops disembark.

    This sounds perfect to me, a great suggestion.
    Look, east the river flows
    Waves rolling over a thousand heroes
    Smile, at this mountainous land
    Victory and defeat lost in dust and sand
  • MedderaMeddera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 47
    edited March 2011
    SkunkOne wrote: »
    i just said that

    Sorry was at work when I posted so didn't really have time to read all of the posts.
  • KurkistanKurkistan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    edited March 2011
    drno31 wrote: »
    I read someone's suggestion for this issue as it relates to Napoleon. That person suggested that if an enemy navy (or any navy for that matter) disembarks an army off on land, the army shouldn't be allowed to move for one turn (which it isn't), and if during that turn, the navy dropping the troops is defeated in battle, the army being dropped off doesn't get to reach land.

    It makes sense and prevents a faction from loading, let's say a Bow Koyaba, with a full stack army and using it to get around a superior navy with the full intention of the Koyaba being destroyed after the troops disembark.

    Aha! My idea lives on in the minds of those it impacted. It's a bit ad-riddled right now, but here is my Yuku post about the idea that drno31 remembered.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,513
    edited March 2011
    I suppose one way of doing this is to use the same ZOC concept that armies use and allow ships to block other navies from crossing their zones of contro: basically the same concept for land armies. Set up a patrol zone of sorts around one's coast, preventing anyone's navy regardless of relations, from crossing it. The bigger the fleet, the larger the intercept zone, so you have to divert resources for that. Now you can make a string of blockades around your coasts with individual ships, but a powerful navy can easily attack it, along with the fact that single ships project a far smaller zone of control.

    This basically makes it so that any navy entering your control zones in the water would be identical to moving their land army in your turf: either ask for access or declaration of war. This also requires the enemy fleet to attack the ships in order to bypass.

    I think this shouldn't be applied to allies though.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • TheDuffmanTheDuffman Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 369
    edited March 2011
    Varus2319 wrote: »
    You guys hear something?

    That was just lol. And Daelins idea seems near perfect. What would be even better, is if you had a massive navy split up into parts along your coast line, and if an enemy navy attacks and takes a long time to destory your segment of ships, the other ships patrolling the coast line can come to its aid? A dream maybe, but just putting it out there.
    Interesting Signature.

    If you disagree with the above comment, your lying, because your still reading.
  • SkunkOneSkunkOne Banned Banned Users Posts: 333
    edited March 2011
    walsh wrote: »
    Sorry was at work when I posted so didn't really have time to read all of the posts.

    all good, i was just forum cruising while drinking so prob my fault. But still I love how the very next guy to post ignored me to lol.

    EDIT: well not ignore but did not acknowledge.
  • michael5188michael5188 Member Registered Users Posts: 61
    edited March 2011
    drno31 wrote: »
    I read someone's suggestion for this issue as it relates to Napoleon. That person suggested that if an enemy navy (or any navy for that matter) disembarks an army off on land, the army shouldn't be allowed to move for one turn (which it isn't), and if during that turn, the navy dropping the troops is defeated in battle, the army being dropped off doesn't get to reach land.

    It makes sense and prevents a faction from loading, let's say a Bow Koyaba, with a full stack army and using it to get around a superior navy with the full intention of the Koyaba being destroyed after the troops disembark.

    Perfect idea, really wish this was implemented.
  • MedderaMeddera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 47
    edited March 2011
    Lots of great ideas and I really wish CA would take note of the issue. If your navy can't really defend your coastal provinces from amphibous assaults what good is it really? Trade node's would be it, and I already have posted a discussion with the problems there.

    I have just had the AI Navies fly right by my stack of ships and dump out a full stack as I watched in horror. The next turn boom, there went the castle. Talk about a sneak attack. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have the cash to keep a full stack in all of these coastal cities for defense.

    A change such as this would give navies a lot more relevance as well as the Mori's ship bonuses, which for the most part are pretty worthless.
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