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Rome 2 vs Shogun 2 MP

PatchyPatchy MemberArkansas, USARegistered Users Posts: 66
edited November 2014 in Total War Eras Multiplayer
PREFACE:

Just from the title I am sure there are many who will first see it and prepare for a fight to defend your favorite TW title. That however isn't my purpose here.

I wanted to make some observations of why I prefer Rome 2 multiplayer more than Shogun 2. As a preface before I get started it should be known that I love both these titles nearly equally (Rome is a better time period for me). So this isn't meant as a peeing contest between games, but more so a discussion of possibilities for the future.

MEAT OF THE DISCUSSION:

I remember clearly leaving work early and heading to the store to pick up my pre-ordered copy of Shogun 2. When I got home the first thing I did was hop into the new Avatar Conquest mode with great anticipation. Being single at the time I was free to pour countless hours into discovering all its features. No doubt I thoroughly enjoyed the ridiculous unit names, pink player created banners (and other hilariously nauseating color schemes), and the excitement that followed unlocking new units. The maps were interesting, the dojo system seemed to most of the time create and interesting mechanic, and the unit upgrades were fun to experiment with.

Once the newness of this system began to wear off I found myself being forced to spend countless hours in multiplayer constantly trying to earn clan tokens and gain experience on my troops or be hopelessly left behind the pack of competition. It required nearly daily attention to keep up with. Slowly over time I felt myself growing tired of the constant need to grind out battles to keep up. Then FoTS came out and started the process all over again.

All this work to keep up in MP took away from my time to work on campaigns (which for me are an exciting facet of all TW games). It just became tiresome for me despite the fact that it was a neat feature and added lots of customization to the process. Then I got married and Shogun 2 MP was basically an impossibility for me as my free time was now needing to be spent on more noble causes.

Rome 2 at launch clearly wasn't even suited for MP so let's ignore that phase of the game entirely and look at it in the later patches (14 and 15). It offers a large variety of factions and units as compared to Shogun 2's very limited number of units. This creates a good deal of replay value for me as I can rotate through factions and keep things lively. Also I don't have to worry about grinding out time in MP just for gaining experience for my veteran troops. This means I can be a more effective "weekend warrior" in Rome 2 than in Shogun 2. At this point in time I just like the overall feel of Rome 2 in MP better than Shogun 2 and feel like I am not forced to play it every day to try and stay relevant.

THE CONCLUSION:

Now all this said I miss some of the customization available in Shogun 2 and freely admit it was innovative and interesting. I guess when it boils down to it I am asking for discussion on how the two systems could be merged to best cater to both types of player...the casual like me...and the tournament goers who love competition. I know some might say, "Well Heir it isn't our fault you are old, married, and lame enough to spend your days at work and with family rather than on games. Sucks to be you." Ok I added drama there just for fun but you get the point.

So shoot away. What would be your ideas for helping the future Total War games have a viable competitive arena style feel while not alienating those fans like myself who simply don't have the time to invest in "time grind to win" type modes? Please share your ideas. I am all ears.
YouTube user : HeirofCarthage
https://www.youtube.com/user/HeirofCarthage

"Destroying Rome...that's Patchy's turf."
- Patchy's Somewhat Italian Sounding Cousin
Post edited by Patchy on
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Comments

  • The KestrelThe Kestrel Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 850
    edited October 2014
    Simply include the progression and customization but speed up the reward system for all but a few (symbolic not substantial) rewards.
  • ZjweeleZinieZjweeleZinie Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited October 2014
    Shogun 2 was a great game after CA patched it a few times. I loved the maps, because most of them had a lot of terrain and were fairly balanced. In my opinion all maps should be symmetric, because this gives both players a level playing field. There also has to be a balance between maps which are better for skirmishing and others which are better for rushing. This was in my opinion the largest pro of shogun 2.

    I'm not sure what to think about the dojo's. They add another dimension to the game and make the game more dynamic, but sometimes they also made the game unbalanced, because one player had the shrine near his deployment zone and the other player had the farmhouse. What I also dislike about dojo's is that they give an advantage to rushing, since skirmish armies most of the time want to kite and by kiting you most of the time lose control of the dojo's.

    I dislike the avatar system, because it takes so much time to unlock all the units and you have to upgrade all of them. I remember that I was playing FoTS and I wanted to unlock marines, because you had to move your avatar to an island to do this I had to play a couple of naval battles, but I wasn't interested in playing them. So I think I've never unlocked them. The retainers were even worse, since it took me 500 of hours to unlock some of the most used retainers.

    In my opinion is Rome 2 a great game. What I like most about Rome 2 is that there are a lot of factions, which all have their own strenghts and weaknesses. Because this is the case you can try a lot of different tactics and builds. If you compare it with shogun 2 there are so much more different units than in Shogun 2. Also in my opinion the balance between most factions is decent, ofcouse there will always be some factions that excell against others, but in the current state of the game you should be able to win almost all the match ups. The only thing that I dislike at rome 2 at this moment are the maps. Most maps are unbalanced or there is almost no terrain compared to the maps of shogun 2.

    If I was CA I would use the multiplayer system of rome 2 in the next total war game. I should invest a lot of time in better maps and add a good working leaderboard. Perhaps I would use the dojo's again, but then they should think how they can implement them and keep the game balanced.
  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,691
    edited October 2014
    Dont like dojos...
    its like encouraging CA to implement capture point again...

    I like Shogun 2 multiplayer because there are less magic/special abilities and flashing lights... but I hate the combat and movement speed in Shogun 2, its like units just meet and rout instantly and cavalry are all running as fast as wind....

    i like Rome 2's multiplayer because of the line of sight and running while hiding...
  • Corwin1Corwin1 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 188
    edited October 2014
    I prefer Rome 2 for pretty much the same reasons, the period, variety of factions, can try any builds without grinding hours for veterans. (Especially having limited number of vet slots was so incredibly annoying...)

    Competitive TW simply requires great faction and unit balance. Also the dojos from S2, or preferably some improved design, would do a lot of good. Solid leaderboard and matchmaking, all the dropping etc issues solved. Simple things.

    We want the game to be more popular, so it's important that more casual players have good experience. Everyone who tries MP should be hooked, instead of walking away annoyed. Anyone trying the game should absolutely NOT
    - Get matched against someone who is on totally different level (if at all possible)
    - Get spammed to death (infantry, chariots, horse archers, whatever is the name of the patch)
    - Be forced to attack against hill/corner camper (that's why we really need dojos / capture points)
    - Get dropped

    And actually, competitive players want pretty much the same things.

    I know the spamming thing is contested topic ("everyone should be able to bring whatever they want" they'll say), but yeah, I would really prefer having at least an optional mode where unit types (inf/cav/missile) are capped in _some_ effective manner (maybe money limits) forcing semi-balanced armies. In practice it actually allows you more flexibility in your own build, because you won't have to be prepared to beat 20 inf rush every time.

    And then add something to keep people in. Conquering the map to unlock units in S2 was a nice tutorial progress. Something similar in R2 would have worked just fine. For example, unlock factions instead of units. Must use neighboring faction to win a battle to conquer a province. (Not sure if the clan war thing was worth the effort, but I guess it didn't hurt either.)

    Some customization sure wouldn't hurt. I don't see why we can't at least set banner colors S2 style. In team games it could get a bit confusing, but just add a toggle to force default ones on for opponents.

    If they could create a system where observers don't cause lag (needs servers), it would be pretty cool to actually show ladder matches in progress, and allow anyone to go in and watch. This kind of thing is popular in chess/Go/etc servers, with top matches always having plenty of observers, and I don't see why it wouldn't work here too as long as technical issues are resolved. Yeah, don't see it happening for R2, but thinking about future...
  • ☢Wraith of Pegasus☢Wraith of Pegasus Member Registered Users Posts: 88
    edited October 2014
    They could of at list kept customization, not even vet system but just getting diff armor for each type of unit after gaining token you can purchase cool outfit.
    ☢Exponential Decay☢
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited October 2014
    I stopped reading later "why I prefer Rome 2 multiplayer more than Shogun 2"
    Rome 2 is a shallow game while Shogun2 + FOTS are profound,varied ,original. Shogan2 is made best strategy game..
    1)Avatar system ,customization,veterans

    2) more strategic maps, dojos (not allow camping)

    3) Unit variety ( Sword ,long-short spear, sword -spear hybrid unit , bow,rifles ,horse archer-gun, naval battle ,two period)

    4) Better war atmospher ( glide of arrow, slate tones, better colour

    I think that Med 2 even is better than rome2 in multi...( soft cap, periods, upgareding weapon ,armor)

    Rome 2 especially is inert and noob game with patch 15 .And It is unrealistic child game( chariot,elephant,pike mechanics)
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    edited October 2014
    I have a feeling that we wont see anything like Shogun 2's avatar conquest anytime soon. Total War Arena will probably fill that void, but whether Arena will be anything like Total War multiplayer still remains to be seen (my guess is probably not).

    As a couple people on this thread have already alluded to, I think it would have been an extremely simple thing to add visual customization to Rome 2 multiplayer. Just being able to slightly change the armor, the names of my units, and the colors of my soldiers and faction banner would have been an awesome addition that personalized the experience. For me, customization is an important part of multiplayer gameplay and keeps me coming back. I had 1500 hours of Shogun 2 gameplay because I felt so attached to my troops, and I always thought it was so cool that you could recognize the Mons/banners of specific players. This added a really nice personal touch. Rome 2 lacks this.

    From a gameplay perspective, the upgrade system on Shogun 2 was not implemented particularly well. You could upgrade units so dramatically that the level 9 unit bore absolutely no resemblance to the level 1 unit, which I think is silly (loan swords going from 9 attack to 21 attack). And melee combat and the whole pace of the game was way too fast in my opinion, with entire units routing 15-20 seconds after clashing (a byproduct of having units with 20+ attack and insane killing power). Rome 2 pacing might be a LITTLE slow at the moment, but I certainly prefer the pace of battles now to what they were on Shogun 2.

    I think its pretty safe to say that Atilla's multiplayer will be the same as Rome 2, without any level of customization. And I don't expect to see visual customization on any Total War multiplayer game in the near future, with the exception of Arena. And this makes me sad, because I think it wouldn't be super hard to implement and would add a lot of replay value. But most of the extremely popular multiplayer games in the world (League of Legends, Dota 2, Call of Duty, Battlefield, World of Tanks, War Thunder, Destiny, Halo) all have visual customization and the ability to tweak and personalize your character.

    So I'm hoping that Creative Assembly realizes this and gives us more options in the traditional Total War games going forward
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited October 2014
    I never palyed Shogun 2 but the fast pace and emphasis and micro sounds like it would be fun. From all accounts I've heard the competitive scene was better as well

    I feel like Rome II never had the opportunity to develop properly because of all the patches, I mean EE came out like a year after released and its not even balanced properly yet. I know quite a few people who have just stopped playing now and its sad to see really. If future games are to be successful (Arena mostly) it needs to be good at released and not completely change time and time again. I love Rome II but it really was a wasted opportunity.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited October 2014
    memccann wrote: »
    I never palyed Shogun 2 but the fast pace and emphasis and micro sounds like it would be fun. From all accounts I've heard the competitive scene was better as well

    I feel like Rome II never had the opportunity to develop properly because of all the patches, I mean EE came out like a year after released and its not even balanced properly yet. I know quite a few people who have just stopped playing now and its sad to see really. If future games are to be successful (Arena mostly) it needs to be good at released and not completely change time and time again. I love Rome II but it really was a wasted opportunity.

    You should play Shogun2 /Fots absolutely. Rome2 is "army choice game" while Shogun2 is more playing ,talent ,creative game.
    I remove Rome 2 today.. I wouldnt buy Attila ( as a rome 2 expansion) I continue to play Shogun2 ,Med 2 :D
  • IndyprideIndypride Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,686
    edited October 2014
    FOTS and vanilla Shogun 2 were very different animals. I loved Shogun 2 Avatar conquest but it was not particularly well balanced, nor would I expect it to be considering the ridiculous upgrades you could give units. That doesn't mean it wasn't competitive at higher levels, and it doesn't mean it wasn't fun, but newer players were at a clear disadvantage.

    FOTS on the other hand was one of the best balanced TW games ever released in my opinion. Upgrades were still important, so you had to invest time into the game, but weren't quite as gamebreaking as they were in Shogun 2. And melee rushing, line spam, and combination tactics with cavalry support and guns were all viable strategies. Vanilla units without upgrades were also viable options as your core in FOTS. In Shogun 2, un-upgraded main line of no-dachis, katanas, or naginatas just melted in literally seconds.

    And I still believe that the crossover battles between Sengoku Jidai avatars vs. FOTS avatars on multiplayer were one of the coolest features CA has ever added to any TW game. They were so much fun
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,077
    edited October 2014
    I loved the avatar system, precisely because it kept you playing the game. This kept the game alive and fresh because you were always trying to build new armies and force compositions. The competitive MP in r2 is slowly dying out due to lack of interest and at the moment the only people who really do play are the "weekend warriors", who only have a passive interest in the game and who you can't really build a decent long-term community around. In s2 a huge number of players who had been around since 2011 were still playing in 2013. Almost all of these have left the series since the release of r2.

    Although the game was based around veterans, all of the wailing that people did about them was absolutely ridiculous. Most of the tournament players used 2 chevron veterans that you could easily get after an hour or so of vet-farming, or even organically as you went through the matchmade. These builds were actually by and large much more competitive than the high vetted ones because they were better value for money. High vet builds took a long time to get, were small and expensive and were only really effective against new players who didn't have a clue what they were doing.

    I also look back on the battles where people accused me of using my veterans to win. Typical scenario...

    JoHnNyl33t00rxking#9000SWAG (12 hours in game, level 7, win rate of 20% army full of yari ashigaru and rockets, camping in the woods trying to gen snipe): "No fair u only win because u have vets"

    Me: "You let me take all the dojos, I killed your general and you didn't even use your units properly?"

    These players were for the most part complete novices at the game who didn't have the first clue how to handle their armies. Rather than blame their inexperience they would always try to play the veteran card - even though the overwhelming bulk of my armies were unvetted or 2 chevron units. For months, I played the matchmade with unvetted units, just to prove a point that you did not really need them for matchmade or battlelist games. My win ratio was exactly the same as what it was when I used my chevroned armies - and even then I still got players whinging about the fact that my general was a higher level than theirs.

    I am sure that adjusting to the tournament meta was a pain for some people, but then again if you were smart with your veterans list, it should not have been too difficult to keep up to speed with it. I kept a little bit of everything on mine - I always had 6 vet 2 No dachi, 8 vet 2 yari cav, 2 extended range bow monks and a couple of extended range guns at all times in my list. The rest I would chop and change, depending on the meta and I never found that it took me more than an hour every 3-4 weeks to farm out whatever it was that I needed. I also made sure that I played at least one matchmade battle a day (5-10 minutes out of my day) so that I always had a bank of tokens if ever I wanted to use them.

    On the subject of playing tournament players - it has always amused me that "casual" players expect to be able to win against someone who has many more hours than they do in the game and who has the experience of fighting regularly against other skilled players. TBH its not realistic for anyone to expect to win out in a best of 5 games against someone who clearly understands the game better than they do. Vets have nothing to do with the outcome.

    In my view Shogun 2 is in every way a superior game to Rome 2 - there was way more customisation, you could build an army that you really felt was your "own" and players were able to develop a lot of different playstyles by using their veterans and retainers in different ways. The only downside to it was the melee dragging, which ultimately ruined what was otherwise a good game for me.

    Its a real shame that CA didn't listen to what the dedicated s2 players had to say (the guys with 1000-4000 hours playing time in game, who had been playing from 2011-2013) about the experience and focused instead on what a lot of casual gamers complained about over the forums or youtube and who wouldn't play for more than 3 hours in a month (I don't see why players like this should even really be seriously considered as part of the community for a game - especially not when it comes to balancing decisions or technical feedback on a games performance). Imagine having an avatar system in R2 now and all of the possibilities that would be unlocked with 20+ highly customisable factions each with their own custom paint schemes and avatars. The replayability for the MP would be immense and we would have a much stronger community than what we have now.
    RedStag
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited October 2014
    You should play Shogun2 /Fots absolutely. Rome2 is "army choice game" while Shogun2 is more playing ,talent ,creative game.
    I remove Rome 2 today.. I wouldnt buy Attila ( as a rome 2 expansion) I continue to play Shogun2 ,Med 2 :D

    Not really an active community though and it would take me ages to get good at it. I'd rather just wait for new games
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • GentlemenGentlemen Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 156
    edited October 2014
    I loved the avatar system, precisely because it kept you playing the game. This kept the game alive and fresh because you were always trying to build new armies and force compositions.

    Exactly what he said, it wasn't perfect but if you felt attached to your armies and it made you want to keep playing so you could improve and want to keep playing. Rome 2 is more arcade battles like the old games which isn't a bad thing but i'm just surprised that CA didn't continue it considering there is a army experience with all kinds of traits when your army is leveled in SP this could have been brought into MP. The problem is like others have said it's more just of "A few battles for fun" which isn't bad just when I bought R2 I was expecting a lot more in MP after playing Shogun 2.
    Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I win this war, you will be slaves forever."
    Spartans said only one word "If"
  • jasonpersonjasonperson Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 121
    edited October 2014
    I agree with almost everything Marshal Suchet said. Shogun kept me coming back, with Rome 2 I only play occasionally. Although I do think getting vets should be a little less tedious.
  • PariyaPariya Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 567
    edited October 2014
    I was always against the "grinding" part of Shogun 2. They could have done all the customizations without needing to grind for it. You simply upgrade your units how you want to without needing to level, you upgrade your general however you want without needing to level. You start at 10 stars and you start with all the units and retainers. They never needed to make us "grind" for it. All the customizations were great and with all these customizable aspects it was surprisingly well balanced although it went through some rough patches Anyone remember the update that made Monks OP? Everyone was using armies of literally nothing but Nagi Monks and there Gens. Those rough patches were few though and usually pretty quickly resolved. I still wish they had stuck to a somewhat earlier period of time when there was no gunpowder units but even the matchlocks could not deter me from enjoying this game immensely.

    All that said MTW1 was the greatest TW game ever in terms of multiplayer. You need to look at it with perspective given to the time period it was released in and the other games on the market. It had a smaller but extremely competitive community and it was well balanced and lag free in 4v4 which is what most people played. You would go into the battlelist and half the hosted games would be 4v4. You guys really don't know what your missing out on being forced to play nothing but 1v1 and 2v2 and maby an occasional 3v3 because there is no chat lobby in which to arrange competative games and the lag prevents it because if you take 8 random people now it is 95% chance one of the 8 will lag the game.
    I guess i'll start linking my channel again: http://www.YouTube.com/BadEgoGM
  • Pine89Pine89 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 580
    edited October 2014
    yeah med1 will always be unforgettable for me, a superior game under many aspects.

    I loved Shogun 2 mp for the most part, but can't ignore all the massive imbalances (which eventually got fixed) it went through during its time:

    - sword ashigaru spam
    - monk spam (with stacking war cry)
    - heavy gunners nearly getting as many kills as chariots today (except that at the time pretty much everybody agreed on the gunners being op)
    - machinegun matchlock monks
    - laser guided european cannons (insta general snipe across the map.. and on s2 the general was much a bigger deal than on r2)

    and finally the worst thing.. random retainer drops, random by design. despite playing my eyes out I never managed to get some very strong retainers which could allow people to make some incredible builds.

    the positives, which imo outwheights the negatives:

    - key buildings
    - cosmetic customization
    - general specialization tree
    - better maps
    - separate stat for sp and mp
    - yari ashigaru spear wall worked on day 1 better than pikes on R2, though it was later plagued with the zombie bug

    FOTS improved even more on that imo, it never had all the troubles that vanilla s2 had to get through. In a way I hope it will be the same for Attila. and please no more hidden stats. an option to show or hide them at least in the build selection screen would be nice.

    rome 2 looks like a more evolved game if you look at the general battle mechanics (line of sight, block chance on shields, unit mass, unit hitpoints) but it lacks the actual mp features that S2 had.

    bottom line is that R2 mp doesn't get me engaged as much as S2's one, but in the end I enjoy it nonetheless.. to the point that I've never went back to playing S2, so they must have done something right. :)
  • Danko10Danko10 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 120
    edited October 2014
    You should play Shogun2 /Fots absolutely. Rome2 is "army choice game" while Shogun2 is more playing ,talent ,creative game.
    I remove Rome 2 today.. I wouldnt buy Attila ( as a rome 2 expansion) I continue to play Shogun2 ,Med 2 :D

    Rome 2 isn't just an "army choice game",you have to know how to use that army and you must have knowledge of the game and to spend time in it to know how to pick good armies. I had lots of battles where i had disadvantage from the build and i still won.
    In Rome you can have only 3 types of advantages:
    1.Cavalry department
    2.Infantry department
    3.Missile department
    When you have for example better cav and inf or better inf and missiles or better cav and missiles you have a clear advantage over your opponent.

    But anyways,I played Shogun 2 and it's a gorgeous game but still pretty unballanced for the begginers and it doesn't have such a big diversity of units as Rome 2 has.
    [-TWR-] Danko on Steam .
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Registered Users, Smiley Posts: 3,641
    edited October 2014
    Agreed about Medieval 1. Still the best Total War multiplayer game both in terms of community and team battles.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 402
    edited October 2014
    IMO, If Rome 2 had the customization options and something resembling an Avatar Conquest, with no OP rewards, maybe even something as simple as a star next to your name, or an achievement earned when you 'conquered' the map, or make only your general unit strong (but killable) it would have been amazing.

    I agree that Rome 2's MP lacks personality; it was the first thing that jumped at me when I played Shogun 2. Although I think the veteran system was a good idea, the implementation was flawed.

    TL:DR;Both games have their flaws, a combination of the two games' strengths would make for a much better experience.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited October 2014
    IMO:
    rome 2)
    pros: lots of factions, many viable tactics, theoretically more advanced mechanics (shields fx) more advanced engine.
    cons: not terribly well balanced, way to slow, multiplayer is a 2nd thought (it's a sub menu under battles "battles" and not even mentioned as MP), no patch (except maybe patch 9) focused on multiplayer.

    shogun 2)
    pros: focused on multiplayer, each patch improved balance, fast smooth combat, avatar system was GREAT and made very battle seem good, lot more players, better ranking board (well maybe not, but getting to #63 was to easy in rome imo), the way you unlock units means noobs can't screw themselves up but have to learn before they get to play the big boys.
    cons: some units where downright worthless (mostly artillery), the game was to fast to allow tactics, it ended up coming down to premeditated attacks and strategies, some retainers where badly thought through (swords ret fx BM>FC>everything else) and should have been balanced to make sure you don't need to play 1000+ hours and still risk not having the most vital retainers.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited October 2014
    The main problem is that Rome2's multi with a lot of factions. CA was able to balance the game with patch 15 .. (Ardai was even good faction).But the game has become boring and slow.. Very difficult to being diversty and balance by lots nations ...Is lots of faction good and necessary? Not ... I think that good way to sell DLC
  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 330
    edited October 2014
    Ahh god. Shogun 2 was awesome. The community after FoTS died was amazing, weekly tournaments and players that could kick your *** with the most ******ed builds known to man. Killerfisch* cough cough.

    I just picked up Rome 2 again 2 weeks ago after putting it down on day 3 after release, and honestly if it had been in this shape at release I would have feel in love immediately. Of course it wasn't and will likely never have a truly balanced roster/game play(no pullthrough type of ****). So that is Irrelivant.


    Either way, I enjoyed shogun 2 a lot more I feel, then Rome 2, I cannot see myself putting 100 hours every 2 weeks into this game. Because I cannot help comparing it to shogun 2 constantly, now apart from 90% of all upgrades being stupid and gun cav being ******ed to kill without gun cav, shogun 2 did have a lot of variety. And spears did what spears needed to do, you could have nagi attendant stop a great guard dead in its tracks while your missiles retreated, in Rome 2 you can't spears get plowed or completely ran through.

    ***

    Anyway.


    What I really like about Rome 2:

    The Archer/foot skirmishing mecanics- They do what they need to do, I love the current balance of the archers in this game, maybe not all units but in general don't change them they are great.

    Cav Skrimishing - Parthian tactics is the best thing to happen to total war. Thank you for that CA.

    Actual Counter Factions - In etw and for the most part NTW there really wasn't counter factions. Rome 2 has them and I love it. It makes thinking relevant.



    What I dont like:

    Spears and cav charges, it is weird and foreign to me. I wont say it is broken but I am finding it super awkward.

    All of these stupid abilities, I shouldn't need to press buttons to win a fight... isnt as bad as release day but ugh formation attack worst thing ever i wish it was off by default. SO i could forget it even existed

    Worst maps ever.

    The UI is horrible in Rome 2. It is awkward clunky and I hate using the in-game chat it is simply too much of a pain in the ***.


    ***


    Shogun 2:

    Banners - my pink banners were amazing. Emblem import would have been awesome but whatever.

    Game play - shogun 2 was smooth and felt right. Cav felt like it was actually moving and the fights didn't feel boring.

    The ability to kite - this is something that Rome 2 doesn't have out side of cav archers. The kiting in shogun 2 was super hard to do, and extremely deadly when done right. (Anyone remember the mini fad of five matchlocks? That **** was deadly.)


    Better maps. The amps made the game. You didnt have the variety of factions like rome 1 or med 2 you had 30+ amazing maps that never made you feel like you opponent had a massive advantage. Dojo's on the other hand.... :P

    Dojo's - I realize i just said they could be imbalanced but seriously it changed the game so much it made aggression the norm instead of a rarity. You couldn't just do the same thing every time because what do you do if your opponent has the archery dojo and fire rockets...

    Well I will tell you. You get your *** kicked and try to forget it ever happened. Unlimited ammo fire rockets in the hands of killerfisch was a very scary thing. >.<


    ***

    Obviously being a game made by CA shogun 2 wasn't perfect -

    Archers were ******edly weak, only used on very very special circumstances.

    The retainers were nice, but hard to work around until duck made his Probability drop mod. Altho CA did put a decent set of retainers on the map its self. But doing a sword rush without blade master was ******g stupid. lol

    and a few other things i'm not going to mention


    But in the end i cant imagine playing shogun 2 without the avatar mod. I enjoyed it to much to worry about the grinding.
    Me
    [-DF-] Skritshell: Hey whats up?
    [-DF-] Chaos: about to start a tourney game
    [-DF-] Skritshell: cool guy any good?
    [-DF-] Chaos: Should win 2-0
    [-DF-] Skritshell: and?
    [-DF-] Chaos: lost 2-0
    [-DF-] Skritshell: ahhh
    [-DF-] Skritshell: well done
    [-DF-] Chaos: ty
  • Gigi10Gigi10 Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited October 2014
    For me Rome 2 multiplayer is a huge disappointment. After shogun 2/fots multiplayer I was expecting a lot more from CA.
    Shogun 2/FOTS avatar system introduced a lot of new cool ideas that actually gave more immersion,tactical depth and overall higher enjoyment.
    I really liked all the cosmetic features. I also liked the different type of general skill tree. I liked the fact I could upgrade my veterans in the specific way I wanted. I liked all the different type of retainers you could choose from. You had for example retainers that gave you more stats or decreased enemy stats others gave you more money to spend or allowed you to field special troops and others that gave you speed or fatigue resistence bonus.

    The game allowed you to be very creative while building your armies. You could focus on making the most pretty army or you could try all the different type of combination of retainers and veteran upgrades and search for what suited more your style of play. In the end there really never was one way to upgrade your veterans or only one set of retainers to pick but it all depended on what you felt more comfortable playing with. Anyone saying that there is only one superior army that can beat all is a troll or a noob.

    Most of these things though retainers and veterans were supposed to be unlocked by playing a lot of grinding games. I personally didn’t enjoy the game very much at start when I was trying to unlock all the units and get some veteran units. Anyways after these first phase I really started to get enjoying these game a lot more. At start I thought that after 100 hours of playing I would stop cause I unlocked all regions but instead I kept on playing because I promise you the game after all the grinding is very fun to play. So I ended up playing 1800 hours of these game and I enjoyed all of it.
    Imo CA could of made an easier way to do the grinding . I think there are many ways to find solution to these problem but deciding to delete all of the avatar conquest cause of these was really stupid.

    An other thing that made shogun 2 so unique and so much fun imo is the map design. The maps were designed very well and you also had Dojo’s to capture that gave you bonus to army. The maps had different terrain features like hills,rivers,forest and some areas you had choke points. So if you were good player you could of taken advantage of all features of the map and you would end up bringing a specific army for the specific map. For new or causal player having to learn all maps and understand what to bring in them may seem a nuisance but I personally think it add s a lot of strategic depth to game.
    If shogun 2 had the los feature implemented of rome 2 I think it would of added even more .

    Also I prefer pace of battle of shogun 2. I liked more the killing rate of skirmish units of shogun 2 then of rome 2 and cav charges work better in shogun 2 then rome 2.

    One thing that both shogun 2 and rome 2 are bad is that archers in both games pretend to be line unit. If the target moves to the side of an archer unit each archer indivualy should rotate on the spot so it can maintain its rate of fire. Instead all unit has to move together to maintain formation and have all frontline presented to target. They end up doing this really weird s formation in process and end up wasting a lot of time to fire. Also if 1 archer is bugged all unit ends up bugged so unit doesn’t fire. A lot of times they end up doing some weird dance waiting to be charged by enemy cavalry unit.
    To solve these problem and others similar CA could of made a new engine for rome 2. With rome 2 high budget I think ca should of invested some of that money it to making an engine better suited to simulate fighting of that time period.

    P.s. one of the most fun thing to do in fots was beating the above pink troll.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,492
    edited October 2014
    Shogun 2 MP was a highly competitive game, a progenitor of Total War as an e-sport.

    Rome 2 MP is soup. Bland and ultimately fruitless. :D
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  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited November 2014
    Costumation system with no veteran system at all. so you don't need to play all the dam time to be competitive but you can still make your troops and your gen more personnalised (with some limits to make them relevant to the faction you're using). And for god sake no magic building like in Shogun2. It ruins the last few part of realims the Ca's games have and is awfull tacticly talking: it forces you to be agressive and the battles end up beeing a stupid rush and the one that is better with his keyboard and his mouse (smashing magic abilities) win. So real tactics are scrowed. Also lets say that I want to use the nomads, you'll inf spam, rush the magic buildings and camp, so in a way it screw many play style and favorise camping (but in this case you'll have a timer helping you).
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited November 2014
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Costumation system with no veteran system at all. so you don't need to play all the dam time to be competitive but you can still make your troops and your gen more personnalised (with some limits to make them relevant to the faction you're using). And for god sake no magic building like in Shogun2. It ruins the last few part of realims the Ca's games have and is awfull tacticly talking: it forces you to be agressive and the battles end up beeing a stupid rush and the one that is better with his keyboard and his mouse (smashing magic abilities) win. So real tactics are scrowed. Also lets say that I want to use the nomads, you'll inf spam, rush the magic buildings and camp, so in a way it screw many play style and favorise camping (but in this case you'll have a timer helping you).
    the dominating tactics among pros was matchlock kiting.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited November 2014
    I always like realism . Units control shoulld being diffucult. It is not chess.. Army First position ,first action , balanced maps , using geography should being more important..
    CA can add diffrent supply mod system such as Wargame series
  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 330
    edited November 2014
    Gigi10 wrote: »

    P.s. one of the most fun thing to do in fots was beating the above pink troll.

    if only you hadn't sucked at vanilla beating you was almost like taking candy form a baby <3
    Me
    [-DF-] Skritshell: Hey whats up?
    [-DF-] Chaos: about to start a tourney game
    [-DF-] Skritshell: cool guy any good?
    [-DF-] Chaos: Should win 2-0
    [-DF-] Skritshell: and?
    [-DF-] Chaos: lost 2-0
    [-DF-] Skritshell: ahhh
    [-DF-] Skritshell: well done
    [-DF-] Chaos: ty
  • JacquestheApostateJacquestheApostate Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 706
    edited November 2014
    There are some excellent post on this thread however I doubt CA will heed any advice no matter how productive. I love the Avatar Campaign and like others have mentioned, I am disappointed to the point of only playing RII for 40hrs. I just checked my hours for Shogun II it's at 2241 and counting all because of the Avatar Campaign.

    Do not expect much and your disappointment will be minimized.
    3 Kingdoms is a great game campaign wise. Make ranked battles in Records mode. Until that is done it won't be complete.
    Gun Cav in Shogun II should have a Retainer!
    Give us another Avatar Campaign!
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited November 2014
    jonasnee wrote: »
    the dominating tactics among pros was matchlock kiting.

    The units are different in Rome2. Units have way more defense and die way slower, so rushing and camping the magic buildings could become viable. You could bring cheap pikes, some inf to protect them from missiles and some missiles units to kill the ennemy missiles.

    Also the thing is that it would favorise some type of playstyle and even worse some factions. The factions with good infantry can easily take control of the magic buildings and camp. But factions that rely on skirmishers and cavalry will have a bad time because they'll have to kill their opponent in a short amont of time. It basically ruins a big part of the game and is not realistic for a penny... To be honnest I'll be happier to learn that CA made the game lag really hard than to learn that they implemented magic buildings.

    And veteran system doesnt allow you to adapt yourself to your battles: you need to have one playstyle or so, since you can't have enough veterans for each army style.


    To be honnest, I think that the only reason why CA implemented costumisation, veteran system and magic buildings is because there wasnt enought factions and variety to make a good multi. Those mecanics were just there as a plan B to make the multiplayer community alive. People who like rpg enjoyed it alot, thats true. But it wasnt a good strategic multiplayer: battle were too fast, more you play the game better your army is, putting together two type of army with one just way more superior (with FOTS), etc.

    I know that Rome2 has some bad points (magic abilities, ridiculously small map) but its way superior to Shogun2 from a tactic point of view.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
This discussion has been closed.