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My Personal vision for a Warhammer: Total War

SiWISiWI Senior MemberPosts: 9,305Registered Users
edited May 2015 in General Discussion
Introduction:
Before the announcement of “Attila” there was some speculation what the next Total War title would be. One possible was that the next TW would be a Warhammer TW, this idea however got strongly rejected from some, which is the reason I would like to explain why I think it would be a good idea to make a Warhammer TW and lay down my personal vision for a Warhammer TW. I do realize that this isn’t the first thread about this topic, but I still would like to share my personal vision for a W:TW.

This I would do in 3. steps:

Step 1
My thoughts of other possibilities

Step 2
Main differences to “normal” TW. Challenges and my suggest solution

Step 3
In-depth description of one of the Factions: The Empire of Sigma

But before I beginn:

English isn't my first language and there is a lot of text, so if you friendly bring mistakes to my attention I will correct them.
Also some thoughts could repeat themselves and something’s could be better organized. Friendly suggestions are welcome here as well..

Step 1

There were a lot of different ideas for a TW, I however only think that only 3 of them a really practical. Things like “US Civil War” are too small in scale (only two factions? Play Stratego) and many others a too niche (even a TW: renaissance) for a TW.

The 3 however I think could/would like to happen are:

Medieval 3

Victoria

China

Let start with Medieval 3:

One of my biggest fears when it comes to the TW series is that it becomes a mindless repeat of past titles with graphic upgrade only. If you look at the history of the series, than I think you will see that it was almost never a revolution of features but an evolution. Many features make only sense in the time settings and barley translate to other TWs.
The exception from this rule would be Rome I, which thanks to the new graphic, did deeply changes the nature of the series. It made completely sense and was satisfied to redo the TWs before Rome I (aka Shogun and Medieval). Medieval 2 profited greatly from Rome I and it’s with its add-on my favorite part.
Now: from what exactly would a Medieval 3 profit from Rome 2 (and all others parts between them)?
“Graphic would be better!” Okay, but would it deeply change the game play, like the update from Rome I did? I don’t see that. Also it still looks good today.
“Sea battles!” Not included in Medieval 2 (as playable) , but this era isn’t exactly famous for it’s sea battles so I don’t think it would really profit that much, from them. Also is the Naval part not really love by many (I love them in Empire, an era famous for sea battles).
What exactly could be new besides these? The only thing I could think of, would be a castle creator, which gives you opportunity do design your castles yourself (with limitations of course).
Maybe a more complex politics/economy system?
Of course there things I would hate to see in Medieval 3: torches.
Not only makes it little sense, but it devalues the defense mechanism of cities and castles, since you simply can attack right away and the other side has no time to respond.

So while I like the basic Idea, I don’t see enough “new” to justified a Medieval 3.

Next one: Victoria/Empires 2.

Now here I see more potential for new features which would make this part unique enough.
While I like Empire (even it committed a lot of sins) for the gunfights and for it feeling of global war. I was missing things, which should have been there. I would hope a Victoria would deliver these. As example: discovery and the forming of new provinces/colonies. In the series you only could conquer the provinces as they were, for the setting of the 18/19th century however it would make sense that you would need to organize “uncivilized” land.
If you play as USA as example (I let the game start at 1800 for that sake), than the creation of new “states” should be an important part of your early game (could be incorporated with an inner politics/civil war system). You should be able to influence shape and feature of the new “province” to same extend. TW is about what History could be and I don’t think that the borders of the Middle West and West Coast states of the US could only look like, they look today. Same goes for Africa.
Other things like the creation of railroads and crucial technology advance (“Zundnadelgewehr”, Mines, ect), could make deep changes how the battles are fought.
The question is: is CA ready to implement a feature like colonization/province creation? Also the balancing could be difficulty, since an army with “Zundnadelgewehren”, should destroy any army without comparable guns.
Finally the game would suffer the same problem, which already bugged Empire. The factions/units are too similar.
Unit roaster of Empire: Line infantry, Grenadiers, snipers, cannons, heavy and light Calvary. There were some unique units, but overall there factions were too similar on the battlefield. The only standouts were the not European factions. The Europeans played themselves pretty similar to each other. Of course the fact that Empire had Units with the same name with different stats didn’t exactly help (note: I think it is a SIN for a strategy game to name units, which are not the same, the same).

So I don’t dislike this idea at all and think it would be more of its own game than a Medieval 3, but without the possibility of discovery and colonizing/province creation. I think it would miss too much. The fact that CA didn’t implement discovery the slightest, doesn’t make me hope for much.

On it goes to: China.

I must honestly say: I’m not crazy about the scenario, but I won’t denial its potential and that it would be truly new. In the past I was skeptical that they would tackle it, because as far I know the shogun* parts of total war were traditionally weaker in sales, than the once which include Europe.
With the rise of the China as market, it seem however likely, that CA would try get in the market the same Empire was a opening door for the US market.
So on this one, I admit that my personal lacking of passion for the era/place is the main reason I not hoping for it. But I also don’t know what exactly it would make different game play wise from Medieval 2 and Rome 2 and how different the Chinas armies fought.

*If you asked yourself: “But why did CA remake Shogun then?” My answer: it was the first part of the series and many veterans did remember it. To remake it was relative easy, since it’s profited from the Rome I revolution.

So here it is mostly disinterest, which holds pack my passion. I would still pick it up, but I would dream about other TW while playing it.
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Post edited by SiWI on
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    Step 2

    Now let talk about the big differences a TW Warhammer should have from a “normal” TW.

    1. Chars and RPG elements.

    2. Army organization

    3. Unique Factions and units.

    4. Magic

    5. Challenges

    6. How provinces work:

    7. Diplomacy, Raiding, Invasions and Civil wars.

    8. Additional features.


    1. Chars and RPG elements.

    First let’s talk about how to translate stats the tabletop knows into unit stats of a TW game.
    In the table top, units have M (how fast they can walk), WS (how good they fight), BS (how good they shoot), S (how easy they can hurt others), T (how hard they are to wounded them self), W (how many unsaved wound it take to kill them), I (how fast they are in the fight), A (how often they attack) and finally LD (how brave they are), to represent how a unit fight.
    Now since the tabletop is turn base and TW during battles isn’t I think you could change the stats in a way, you still would recognize them.
    T and W would become “health”, I and A would be the “attack rate”, hence how often a unite attacks. The rest can pretty much stands the way it is. All of these stats can be modified by gear and things like a great weapon would give more S (aka can more easily kill others), but lowers your attack rate.
    Let’s take a look how protection works. There a three layers of protection: armor, invaluable save and regeneration. Now armor is pretty straight forward, a culmination of how good the character/unit is physically protected. Now however there a lot of things which could negate armor (pure strength, magic gear ect.) and hence the invaluable save would be value. As the name suggest, there is only very few thing which can negate this save or influences. Most of the time you get it through a spell or magical gear, which means that it will be pretty rare. Most of the units will not get one, outside of magic and most characters will need magical gear to get it.
    Not as rare is regeneration, even thou that this isn’t as much a save, but the chance to regain health. How fast depends on the nature of your generation resources. There a couple units who got this, but overall it is still pretty rare. It can however better counter through gear and magic which stops it.

    DEATH TO THE BODYGAURD UNIT! While a free elite unit is nice, it doesn’t fit for Warhammer.
    In Warhammer Chars join units of your choosing, and you a pretty free to chose in which unit your chars should fight and with what they are equip.
    That leads of course to the next part: an Inventory.
    Warhammer gives you a lot of choice with what your chars can go into the fight. An Imperial General for example, can have mounts, muskets, bows, pistols, one hand weapon, two hand weapons, different types of armor, each with different advantages and disadvantages. And of course there is magical and unique magical gear.

    Let’s play this through: you fight with an Imperial army on open field you want you General to join the heavy knight units and for that you give him an armor horse, Lance, sword and shield.
    After the battle you take the same army to attack a town, for that you decide that he shall join the storming infantry. For that you take away the horse. Now after he took the city, your get yourself siege yourself. So you decide to give your General a pistol, so he can shoot at the enemies while they are climbing the walls.

    Now of course of all this only makes sense, if the Chars themselves are stronger and have a bigger impact on the fight.
    Example: with good equipment (no magic items) a General should make a unit state troop spearmen (imperial of Sigma unit) triumph over the usually better unit of state troop swordfighter. If they encounter a unit of greatswords however (an elite unit), normal not magical gear shouldn’t be enough, to win the fight.
    If however the General has good magical gear or is very experience and skilled in being a fighter, they should even win that. And if the general has unique gear and even a “monstrous” mount, than he can be alone a force to be reckon with.

    Now a very obvious question comes to mind: where to you get gear?
    I would make not magical gear general available, since it isn’t a far fetch that an army has different types swords, armored and unarmored horse for it’s commander, if he desire to use them.
    The magical gear however should either be crafted (buildings required) or got for quest and missions.
    The magical gear I would classified in two different classes: “usually” magic gear, which can be mass produce, if you have the money and unique items, which can only exist once in your empire. In step 3 I will give more detailed description about the gear and how to craft it, how powerful it should be and what are the limited to use this gear. Spoiler alert: you can’t give one guy more than one magical item per category (weapon, armor, usable ect).
    If the army is the field, someone has to transport the item to the army and its chars. It doesn’t teleport.

    The units themselves could have some options, to choose like getting shield or sometimes the Champion can get special weapons or the unit itself changes weapons.

    Now let’s talk more about Char abilities and characteristics.
    A General should have three types of abilities: fighting, leadership and statesman.
    Fighting skills are all about how good he fights, how much damage he can take and some special abilities (special shots, attacks ect). Also the equipment which he can choose should be influence from this tree. Example: to use mounts better than horses you will need to skill a riding ability on a certain level. Leadership is about buffing own troops or debuffing the enemy. Additionally, it could get excess to better gear for the troops them self or even other unit types Statesman at last is about effects on the campaign map: taxes, happiness, culture spread ect. You get points for experience and can freely choose between all 3 skill trees (detail differs from faction to faction of course).
    Additionally the old system of TW ”what you do makes who you are”, should make a comeback. If your char slays a dragon or more, then he will get “Dragonkiller” as trait. If you shoot a lot, he can get buffs you that. If a char uses one type of mount very often, than he can get traits for that and “bound” with the mount and making him on it more effective and perhaps debuff using other mounts.

    On topic on points and gear:
    In the tabletop, points limited the excess of what a character could wear on magical artefacts. A strong character (Generals) for example has 100 points while weaker only has 50 points for magical gear (Captains). Now while I would largely use the same system, I think characters should have a skill which would allow increase the limit of magical gear.
    The reason for that is, that in Warhammer there are special characters who simply ignore those limited’s. Those are the most standout and heroic characters and I think you should be able to create such in a campaign.

    Now you may have notice that I always speak of chars not just generals (even many examples were base on them). That is because besides Generals, there should be other classes of Chars which can be added to an army, like agents. I get more concrete on this in Step 3, because now I go to the next topic.

    2. Army organization:

    Besides of at least one unit (duh!), every army would have a General and an army standard/flag with a bearer. The bearer is a char on its own and can be equipped similar to a general (the most powerful options he has not) and he learns skills himself. The Flag itself, bearing the characteristics of the army, can be magical and finally should be custom-able and there should be the convenient option to turn pictures in to flags (you want a historical banner for your army? You get it! You what Darth Vader on your banner? You can get that as well.).
    The bearer can joins a Unit of his choice, just like the general and other chars.
    Other chars? Well every faction has a “General” type of commander/hero, which is usually a pretty good fighter (how good depends of the race), but there are also mages and support chars of different degrees or simply chars for very unique purpose. How that looks I will show in Step 3.
    Now since the different races, have many degrees of strength and one goblin, even if experience and good equipped, can hardly beat a High elf Lord or a Chaos General. Now how do we balance things out? We limited the numbers of chars per army; base how strong the single char of the faction is. Faction with very strong chars (Elfes, Chaos, Vampires ect.) should only have very few slots (2-3), faction with medium strength (Empire, Bretonnia ect.) would have quite a few (4-5) and faction were the single member is rather pathetic (Goblins, to some extend Skaven) could have many chars in a single army (8-10).
    I think that this could give the game a lot of depth since you would have many possibilities, to mix char, mix skills of chars, mix gear of chars. More detail in Step 3.

    There is an important element to Warhammer called: “full commando”. That means that a unit got a Champion (best fighter), flag and a musician. Now in the game they are upgrades most units (some units have only champion and/or musician) can buy.
    In TW I would assume that every unit uses its chance to buy the “full commando”.
    Now the Champion usually serves the purpose to fight in challenges (instead of a char). I’m not completely sure if I would put that into TW, since it would be to complicated to let every unit in close combat give order for challenges (but I would Chars run to each other, if they units fight each other).
    So instead I think the whole “commando” should be important for the unit moral (the whole purpose of the flag and partial of the musician). So abilities which are targeting enemy commando could be helpful to weaken the moral of important enemy units.

    Patrols and Raiding parties

    Depending on a faction is “good” or “evil”, it can create either patrols or raiding parties (neutral have most the time patrols). These are not full armies in the sense that they are not leaded by a “General” (but by a “Captain”) and they do not have a Standard. They don’t get traits and they can only have 5-6 units and 1-2 supporting characters. Now you ask which function does this have.
    Both of those two would be really fast on the campaign map and have the ability to escort characters to front armies (for example a front army lost a mage and shall now get a new one) or deliver items or simply new units. They could also be necessary to escort a general to an army, which lost theirs.
    Besides that, patrols would have a big intercept range, to prevent the raiding parties from raiding. Which is where the raiding parties would get bonus abilities, like loot more gold or the ability to embark from ships (which can be raiding parties/patrols too) without penalties. There could be difference between the different factions as well.
    This system has overall the function, to keep the limited army system, but still give big empire the ability to defend them, since a patrol with a city garrison should be very cable of defending a city.
    The leaders of those would be recruited as minor characters (using a military academy for example).

    3. Unique Factions and Units

    First a list of all factions, which are playable in the tabletop game:
    Bretonnia
    Empire
    High Elves
    Wood Elves
    Dark Elves
    Warriors of Chaos
    Demons of Chaos
    Beastmen
    Vampires
    Tomb kingdoms of Khemri
    Ogres
    Dwarves
    Orcs and Goblins
    Lizardmen
    Skaven

    Now there would be more candidates for possible factions like Kislev, Tilea (Italia), Estalia (Spain), Ind (Indian) or even Cathay (China).
    So Warhammer has no lack of interesting faction and while some are perhaps unfit for a campaign (both Beastmen and Wood Elves could fall into that) and others should be combine, the others have enough sub faction to make up for it.

    Historical TW have always the problem, that people of the same time, usually fight pretty similar like the other people of they time (some exceptions included).
    In the Warhammer world however you have many armies fighting completely different as others.
    The Empire fights like late Medieval/early modern age armies, with some elements of steam punk and fantasy of course. Gunpowder and Artillery are important
    Bretonnia relays on massive knight attacks (high medieval).
    High elves have small but very discipline units, which often fight in “phalanx” style; also they are bow heavy and have some mixed units (melee/range). Some chariots and powerful monster included.
    Dark elves have light units, but do much damage and frighten their enemies.
    Wood elves relay on wood creates, skirmishing, range combat.
    Khemri fights like “classical” Egypt (except they are undead), with chariots, mythical creatures ect.
    Da Orcse fight with the spalter! Goeung straitha to da enemies un usa the spalter.
    Goblins have masses and many crazy weapons/creatures (often hurting them self).* Orcs and Goblins could be together in one faction or starting as two and get unified under some condition.
    Skaven have also masses (they have only courage when in masses), but are sneaky, use poison, advance gunpowder and some dangerous weapons.
    Vampires: some very elite units and a lot of cheap undead masses.
    Dwarves have no Calvary, but advance machinery, artillery and are pretty much the toughest armor and they infantry fights in shield walls almost never gives up.

    These are not all of the faction, and only a very brief description of them. I think it demonstrates that TW would have more different styles of fighting in one game than any other TW title.

    But more than fighting, there also should have different political systems (base on the lore), abilities in various degree. The relative strength of the races for example should influence how big the units are (strong 90-120, Medium 150-180, weak 240-300).
    Also things like the transport system on sea would be influence. Most Races use Fleets who transport the armies (one Ship 1-2 units), but for the Chaos warriors, which are inspire by the Vikings partly, I would make an exception and gave them the ability to make transport as in Rome 2.
    Wood elves could travel with ease through woods, but can’t use some of their units in winter.
    Vampire armies depend heavily on the general, if he dies, they start falling apart.
    Dark elves raid mostly to get slaves, which are most important to them.
    Skaven and Dwarves could have excess to tunnels.
    Skaven need warpstone, Dwarves beer.

    These are only some of many possible differences between the races

    4. Magic

    Now there are two ways, as I see it, that magic could be in cooperated into TW.
    The first would be to simply make it “button mashing”. That however would be a terrible way to represent magic of the Warhammer world.
    Let’s talk shortly how magic works in the Tabletop: the player, who has the turn, throws two dices, the number of energy dices he has to cast spells. The other side gets only the highest number of the two to ban.
    Now the player who can cast magic must make the choice: to I take a lot energy to make my most important spells first, or do I bait the other site with smaller spells on which I hope he/she waste the ban dices, even it could be that the spells fail and hence he actually saves ban energy.
    The other side must equally think about, if it is really worth trying to ban the spell or should I save my energy, in case the other side has a more dangerous spell in reserve.
    Also both sides must consider the equipment they bought for the magic phase.

    In order to simulate this in a TW, I would like to see the following: base of the units/chars used in an army, gear and how the winds of magic blow (a new additional weather condition), every army fills two energy bars. One to cast magic, the other to ban it (even Army with no mages at all can try to ban, but it is hard).
    Now when someone wants to cast a spell he must use some of his energy pool to start casting the spell. If he succeeds to cast the spell (the more energy involves, in relationship of the spell cost, the more like is the success), the other side gets a chance to use they pool of magic defense to ban it, so more energy they use so more likely is the success to ban it. The energy bars should refill itself relative slow, so once to use all to should have to wait ca. 5 minute till it is full again. You know how much energy the enemy has left.
    Now the question is how to make this work without to be too stressful. My solution would be like this: all spells need about 10-15 second to get cast. This should give enough time to order a possible ban.
    All available spells should be shown in the left corner. The minute you move the mouse courser over it, it should show you a description, cast on different level (most spell have two, some three power level you could try to cast them) and also the mage himself should be shown so you can see where he is, with a radius where he could cast the spell.
    Since you can’t cast too many spells normally, it should be too stressful after some initial magical burst.
    How likely spell can be cast or ban depends on skill of the caster, gear and a little bit of luck.

    Speaking of luck, there is one thing I would not integrate into a TW:W and that is “control lost”. Using magic is a dangerous thing in the Warhammer world and very time a mage use a spell, there is a chance to “loose control” which can have various unpleasant effects, most of them including the mage and many members of his units, dying.
    Now since it would be annoying to lose an important Mage casting a minor spell in a small skirmish during a cast, I would do not let normal cast have “loose control”. But I would gave every spell a hyper form, which cost a lot of energy and has the additional danger of blowing the mage up, but is impossible to ban.
    In order to avoid silly AI to always burst into hyper kamikaze mode, they should be hardcoded to only use it, if they defending their last or capital city/castle or really desperate battles. The player him/herself should be careful enough since losing the mage chars should be punishment enough.*
    Alternative the already existing 2nd more powerful form could be the one which can trigger "loose control" while the normal doesn't (no 3th "hyper" form).

    * I like to add that there is a very cynical approach to this whole thing in the Tabletop. You take one poor lvl 1 mage, put him in some cheap close combat unit and then let him cast something in the hope that he blows up and takes enemy elite soldiers with him.
    In TW:W this should be discourage by the fact that you would have to rehire him for money.

    Now when it comes to the spells, I think all of them can be taken from the tabletop. We have 8 different lore’s of magic, each has 7 spells (one is the basic spell), and also many races and some units get some unique spells only they have access.

    All spell can be categorize as one of three things: damage, bless and curse.
    Those get split by the fact that each category can either apply to a whole unit or single chars and some of the blessing are only for the caster himself. Some of the damage is place on areas, with some inaccuracy.
    Most spell can be cast more powerful which sometimes make them stronger, but usually only increase the range, with the hyper form, almost every spell has 3 different forms (some 4, some only one).

    It would be nice if the spell made context sensitive, meaning using an air/heaven mage in a naval fight (char should join fleets too), you should be able to boost the sails of you ships with him or that some spells better work in forest.

    Let’s talk about the 8 mayor mage lore’s in general terms:

    1. Fire:
    Describe as magic artillery, it gives a bonus of using more damage spells on the same unit. It has decent blessings as well a curse. Most of its damage is rather unit as char wise.

    2. Beast
    Good to use on monster, cavalry and beast. Most of its spells are here to boost single chars. Does have also some damage spells and most impressive the ability to transform the mage in something different.

    3. Metal
    Damage is base on the armor of the enemy. If the enemy is heavy armor, these spells will be more devastating. Damage spells it has quite a lot, but also a good addition of blessings and curses.

    4. Light
    Very good damage against undead or chaotic, main purpose however is to bless your own units.

    5. Live
    Ha ha stay alive, stay alive HA HA HA STAY AAAAAAAAALIVEEE! Sorry I couldn’t resist. You may guess it, this is the best in blessing your units and keeping them alive (even retrieve them from the dead), but has one powerful damage spell as well.

    6. Heaven
    Your anti air magic, no blessing but curse and A LOT of damage.

    7. Shadows
    Allows to change places with other chars (when the same type, aka infantry or cavalry ect.). It has many cures, but also a lot of damage and only one blessing.

    8. Death
    Gains energy through dead enemies. Little surprise it got a lot of damage, only one blessing but more curses.

    How many and which of these 8 you got, depends on the faction you play.

    For those who play Warhammer: I didn’t describe some aspects of spells, because without further description of how exactly they work I don’t think it would be useful
    But I may revisit this part and add certain aspects like “stays in the game” or what can be casted under what condition, if requested. But for now I think that this gives enough of a first view.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    5. Challenges

    Now there are of course a couple of things which exist in Warhammer, are a big part of it, but were never before in TW and there for never tried.

    The most important are flying units. Many races use of flying units of various degree (gyrocopter, dragons, griffons), this however brings a couple of balancing problems.
    Many is always just another word for not all, also some races suck in the range department. Besides: a strong melee army shouldn’t be helpless against 1 or 2 flying units. My solution for this problem would be too limited the flying time of units; also they wouldn’t fly to high over the ground, so that range and artillery have a chance to get some hits. Also the strongest units should be relative slow. A Dragon for example should not be able to fly the whole range of imperial cannons.
    Flyers should not have range weapon/abilities (or very limited ammunition). In general they could use the flying for a fast move and to get more charge bonus, but ultimate they should be force in close combat.
    Maybe exhaustion should prevent units of flying as well.
    There are the gyrocopter of the Dwarves however, which don’t really fit in the schema. It would be possible to balance since through making them a late unit. Another way would be that gyrocopter strikes are special abilities of dwarf’s characters.
    There are some other units which would make it difficulty to balance, since there are range flyers, but overall I think the restrictions with the flying would balance things out.

    A other challenge would be navy combat, since the Warhammer lore is mostly base on land battles, navy lore is relative old and imprecise or goes against other lore (Bretonnia Fleet using cannons for example) or they simply don’t have any description (Lizardmen/Beastmen, as far I know).
    This gives creative freedom of one hand, but also opens the problem how to make different styles of navy worked against each other. How balance Navy who fight with cannons, against Navy who fight with Ballista and a Navy who don’t even have those? Fleets which relay on boarding would be weaker in they nature, since boarding never worked really well in TW. On the other hand, if it would work the whole of TW series would profit from it.
    Also the thing with flying units comes back: some fleets like air support, but how does that work? Do they fly always, unlike on land? Or do you have “carrier” ships for you pegasi knights? I think carrier would be a good solution for flying units on sea.
    The flyers would have a certain range, at which they can attack other ships or flyers. The closer the carrier is, the longer the flyer can stay away from “home”.
    The attacks itself, where mostly attacking the upper decks of the ship in close combat. When the time goes out, you flyer retreats to its home base and must “recharge”. Of course you can call them home on your own.
    I think the danger of flyer on sea would balance itself out, because those faction which aren’t strong enough in close combat, usually have a lot of range or artillery ready to repeal air threats. Let’s not forget that cost is an effective way to balance things out as well. And let’s not forget one thing Empire did rather well in my opinion: limited certain rare units.
    You can have a big ship with a lot of pegasi knights on board, which totally dominate smaller ships. But you only can have 1-4 through the whole empire, so you must choose carefully where to use those 4 ships. All ships in one fleet of pegasi death and terror? Or spread them between different important fleets.

    Another hot topic would be to combine land and sea armies in the some battle. While it (kind of) worked in Rome 2, in a TW:W there could be a lot of problems. For many ships (see for more in Step 3), it isn’t plausible that they would land on the beach. Plausible would be that they would send the crew in small boats, in order to let them fight on land. On the other hand you could let those ships set anchor and indeed set all of the crew members to fight.
    Perhaps they could to the thing they did in “Fall of the Samurai”, aka give fire support. Overall I think that this is again where the different faction would come into play.
    For the Chaos warriors, it would make sense that the ships they use could beach (perhaps not all of them). For the Empire fire support or use boats to land parts of the crew make more sense.

    General setting issues/chances

    Some fundamental problems could be the exact time of the Start of the campaign, as well how long it goes and how many turn per year.
    I think “2400” would be a good moment to start the campaign. This is largely base on the history of the Empire and I don’t know all the other races so well, that I could tell, what happen during that time of their “history”.
    I think the best ration turn per years, would be ¼ year per turn (spring/summer/fall/winter). A game which should be character heavy, should allow you to develop them. If you get a human General in his 20’s and every turn takes 4 years, you have little more than 10 turns with him before he would die. So you would have about 160 turns (I assume he dies with 60+, how old the get depends also on the race), to develop him, to get a “relationship” with him, if the turn is a quarto of a year.
    So that if he finally dies in the Bed you will see the message and remember all the great battles you won thanks to him and be sad about all the experience who was lost.
    When let the Campaign end? 2500 would be a possible date (right before the “present time” of Warhammer). Now that would make 400 possible turns. Alternative you could made only ½ year per turn, but let it end 2600. This would let you see more generations of your faction.
    In general I would be open for even more time, because why not? But for the overall public a game with 800 turn could take too long or be view as too easy, since you probably would finish way before the end (nothing too unusually for the series thou).

    6. How provinces work:

    I think a bit about how would like provinces to work in TW Warhammer and I think I would like the most a mixed systems of previous TW titles.
    Every province should have one well wall city with decent troops to defend it (detail depend on the faction of course and what you build), besides to that there should be a couple of villages, without wall but somewhat decent position for a defending army. The garrison of this village would be rather bad. They are not conquerable in classic sense but good to be raided (destroying them gives the attacker a lot off money/slaves) and are important for the economy of the province. Finally every province would get a castle/fortress/stronghold. Mighty walls and defences with some of the most powerful units of it’s faction to protect.
    In order to conquer a Province, you must capture both the main city and the castle. A moveable defence should be in the interest of the owner to stop raiding forces (many of the evil races should be programmed to raid the good races regularly).
    Other than that you should have unique places like ruins of Mortheim or the chaos desert. Some of the Capitals need unique maps, during sieges. Talabheim isn’t Talabheim without its special defensive.

    7. Diplomacy, Raiding, Invasions and Civil wars:

    Many of the factions of the Warhammer world have never been in peace with each other and hence there should be a difference in relation ships between the factions.
    They basically belong to one of three groups:
    The “good” ones: Bretonnia, Empire, High and Wood Elves, Lizard men and Dwarves
    The “evil” ones: Vampires, Dark Elves, Chaos Demons and Warriors, Beastmen, Orcs and Goblins and the Skaven
    The “neutral” Empires: Tomb kingdoms of Khemri and Ogres.

    *note I only name the Tabletop playable factions, there are other factions whom you could add to the table and most of them fall into the first group.

    The “good” races do have war between each other, but in case of a mayor Invasion through of the Evil powers they will made easy peace offer and even offer help in form of expedition armies, since overall those are the faction they are afraid of.
    The current ruler of Bretonnia may hate you conquering some of his land, but he does hate the Warriors of the chaos more.
    The “evil” races act in a similar fashion: usually fighting each other, but when they see someone starting a big Inversion, they try to profit of the opportunity and support the Inversion in some way. It should be less automatic, and perhaps more base of opportunity.
    The neutral factions however do not act blindly on either side, but joint the side which offers more or which services they goal better.
    Faction of the group evil will never be in peace with good once and the other way round. Only the neutral factions will have the options to move fully in the diplomacy.

    The Chaos Warriors, the Dark Elves, the Beast Men and many other faction should be in a constant mode of Raiding provinces which a far away from they homeland. Conquering should something they only do to provinces connected to theirs (exception rule: other continents).
    Raiding can be easily done to villages and is of course harder against cities, but also more meaning full. For evil factions it should be important not just to expand but also to destroy and pillage a lot to get more powerful.
    And through successful raids, gathering armies, getting more powerful chars, they should fill an “Inversion meter”. Once it is completely full, the faction leader (which can be a player or not), can declare an invasion target (a certain Important city/province) and the faction gets access to additional armies and some rare special units.
    To which faction the target belongs, depends mostly of who are declaring the target. Chaos Warriors should mainly target the Empire and Bretonnia. Orcs & Goblins should focus the Dwarves. Dark Elves should mainly pick on High Elves. Of course a faction can take an “unusually” target for its invasion.
    To balance things, the defender gets excess to some additional forces, but still should go in complete defence mode. My hope would be that this mechanic would make big battle with more than two factions happen (evil faction working together, good helping they allies in time of need) quite regularly.
    And while being good on preventing raids should help, to minimize invasion, it shouldn’t be possible to avoid all of them (at least till the end game).

    Civil wars.
    Now everyone who knows the lore of Warhammer, knows that the factions are highly divided and often fights break out between them. The question now would be how to implement this without having the problem that alliances are completely broken down.
    I would propose the following things to prevent that: every faction should have something which forces unity. That would tie in with the Invasion system and perhaps institution or figures of the faction which can force the end of civil war (the “pope” of the Empire for example).
    Also the civil wars should start limited and local. When province A attacks provinces B, than only those to provinces should fight each other in the start, without to threaten the empire as a whole. Other parts should only come involve if one is about to completely destroy the other faction or the war has gone on for quite sometime. Till than the fighting provinces still would have “normal” relationships with all the others.
    In terms of keeping peace: there should always a “soft” authority (a religions figure as the “pope” for example) and a hard authority (the leading faction of your race). The first one would try to stop you by sanction you and denying support this would give you otherwise or demanding that you do mission for it in order to make up for the harm you do
    The second would try to ensure peace by either making threats through they own army, declare you are enemy of the faction, or offer compromises (pay that or that, give back that or that) between the two who are fighting. He could be also bribable, even thou it has its own safety concern, hence likely be on the side of the small one.
    Both of those should be influence to a degree that the player can afford to pick off some land of his neighbours without too much trouble, if he made sure to be in good terms with each other

    8. Additional features:

    A nice thing to add to the game and to the series would be that river could be use by fleets. There could of course restrictions that some ships would be too big to use rivers, but overall the TW series rob rivers they strategic use they should have. You should prefer using ships in to transport your armies, when a river is nearby, than using streets.
    A far smaller addition would be that the figures would learn to lean over wall in order to shoot, raising the effectiveness of range units of walls.
    A more Important addition would be a "check if artillery has a fire-line" button. I mean how often did you place arty or other range units in positions, where you thought they could shoot good, but in reality they were shooting against the small little "hill" you couldn't see.
    Such feature could help the AI as well to place the arty better, since they would use it themselves a calculate if they have a firing line.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    Till now I have spoken more general over the game I would envision, but now I wanna be more congregate and describe you the Empire of Sigma.

    First let look about the general stats of this faction:

    Alliance: good

    Mass/quality: Medium

    Sea transport: using fleets.

    Magic: all 8 lore’s available.

    Age of chars: medium.

    Strength of Chars: medium

    Special rules: Staate troop drill, Empire Units, which are state troops, get buff for fighting near each other

    Motto: “Three things make the Empire great: Faith, steel and gunpowder!” Magmus the faithful.

    Relationships: Very good with Dwarves, Good with High Elves, almost Good with Bretonnia and Wood Elves.

    How does the Empire actually work?

    The empire is, as copy of the Holy Roman Empire, not really one Nation, but rather a collection of 10. To represent that, you should actually be different faction (similar how Rome I treated the Romans), which do fight quite regularly against each other. But they do have institutions which keep them together.
    One of these institutions is the Emperor. He is elected, from the 14 electors (10 from the Counts of the provinces, three from the Sigma cult and one halfling). He leads the Empire in dire times, takes care of the imperial interest and ensures that conflicts between the different counts stay at a minimum.
    His authority however is neither endless and can be loss, if the ruling Emperor holds low respect in the provinces. In extreme cases he can be forced to resign during his rule. Otherwise his son simply doesn’t get the votes to get elected.
    How he gets respects? Besides being a successful warrior/general himself, he must also come to help the other provinces and have solution for the problems with each other. Most respect he should get by fighting of invasion of the Chaos Warriors.
    Of course the player can aspire to become the emperor, what advantages this has, I will explain later.

    The other institution is the Sigma cult and its leader the grand Theogonist. He will be somewhat similar as the pope was in Medieval 2 for Catholics. He will give you mission (destroy that, build churches, clean that from the unclean) and rewards you and punish you accordingly. Rewards can be gold, artefacts, special units.
    Under some condition, he will even join you with an army, as he is a very powerful fighter himself and has some unique gear and units under his command. A condition could be an invasion and high respect for you. Alternative he could just a powerful enemy if you play against the empire.
    Instead of cardinal you would get two Arch Lektors beneath him, which would aspire from the Warrior Priest in use from the factions.
    His power in the elector is great, because he votes all three votes of the same candidate. Means if you want to be Emperor, you got to have good terms with the church.
    One of his responsibilities however would be also to limited the time civil war takes, if an Emperor is disputed.


    Army:

    Land Units:

    Militia:

    Basically the scum of the empire (thieves, mercenaries ect.), cheaply armed and the main function is to fill the ranks and be cannon fodder.

    Archers

    Nothing special really, they work as normal arches would work.
    Special rule: state troop.

    Hunters

    Now here we get also archers, but they are actually good in the woods and could have things like moving while hidden in woods, moving while hiding and perhaps even shooting while hiding in the forest.
    They could also a heroic version of them like the “Wulfharts Hunters”, with special abilities against monster. Even thou they don’t appear till the rule of Karl Franz (after 2502).

    Spearmen

    Discipline troops but cheaply armed with spears.
    Special rule: state troop.

    Upgrades/options: shields

    Halberdiers

    Same discipline better armed whit Halberds, better in inflicting damage to the enemy.
    Special rule: state troop.

    Upgrades/options: shields

    Swordfighter

    Armed with shield and Sword, they are pretty good fighters and can good defend themselves. Special rule: state troop.

    Crossbowmen

    Excellent range and decent in damage, you probably will use this men a lot.
    Special rule: state troop.

    Hand gunners

    Less range, than the crossbows, but very strong
    Special rule: state troop.

    Option: Champion could get a special musket weapon (Hochland sniper or repeater gun, later is a musket with more shots)

    Knightly Orders:

    Your heavy cavalry, not amazing in doing damage outside of charges, but they have some of the best armor of the game. A good morale including.

    Options: can change lances for great weapons. Trading the charge bonus for more sustain damage in longer fights.

    Commentary: I want to note that the Orders are describe as very independent parties and it may be worth to give them some relationship system to, base on how glorious the battles were you let them fought in or did quest for them. You could also give different stats for different Orders, so it makes sense to chose which order you want the most on your side.
    If you would get them to like you, you could get access to more Elite units like the inner circle knights and the Demigryph knights or even the Grand master of the order (more about him in the characters section).

    Inner circle Knights

    Stronger and better in doing damage, also more options.

    Options: can change lances for great weapons. Trading the charge bonus for more sustain damage in longer fights.
    Can use Magical Banners.

    Demigryph knights

    Inner cirle Knights on a monstrous mount, less a charging unit, than a one who stays in the combat. They are very dangerous for the enemy.

    Option: Can replace Lances with Halberd, trading charge bonus for more sustain damage.

    Greatswords

    With good armor and a strong weapon this is a very good infantry, which also has high moral.

    Special rule: state troop.
    Option: Can use Magical Banners.

    Pistoliers:

    Are a cavalry unit with armed with a pair of pistols and decent armor. They are your skirmisher cavalry.

    Undisciplined they have a chance to attack enemies without order.

    Options: champion can have repeater gun or a repeater pistol.

    Outriders

    Usually the Officers of the Pistoliers, these men are very experience and very good at shooting. Armed with deadly repeater guns.

    Options: Champion can have a Grade launcher or repeater pistols
    Horse can take barding (better armor, but slower).

    Commentary: this unit is actually so strong, that I think I would limit the excess to it. Maybe give this as reward (from the Technicus Academy?) or as a special ability of the “Master Engineer” (more about him in the character section).

    Great Cannon

    While its almost self explaining: a big gun. Quite important for the empire to eliminate monsters and support the troops. Has only round shots and canister.

    Commentary: The Cannons should be a reliable but not guarantee way to damage or even kill big beast, including even dragons.
    In light of Attila barricade system, it would be nice to get barricade which could be armed with a cannon battery and one more unit. This wouldn’t make them as useless as defender, probably pretty strong even.

    Mortar

    Unlike the cannon not against strong enemies but against masses, since it does have explosive ammunition

    Flagellants

    Very crazy people, who seek to die in the battle in order in repent for the sins of humanity. Great at attacking, but unlikely to survives many battles (isn’t exactly they goal anyway).

    Special rules: Mad: fights to the last man. Undisciplined: can attack without orders.
    Martyrs: does more damage as more of it own people are dying.

    Commentary: This unit could be a reward unit, or a unit which joins you during invasion from enemy fraction or a “crusade”.

    Helblaster Volley Gun

    This gun has actually 9 barrels and while it doesn’t have the range of the big gun, it can devastate enemy monster or elite units like knights.

    Helstorm Rocket Battery

    Hard to aim, but it is the ultimate war machine against masses.

    Commentary: All artillery in Warhammer has a chance to malfunctions and possible, blow up or destroyed other wise. For TW:W I would eliminate it for similar reasons I did eliminate “lost control” in the magic section.

    Steam Tank

    Probably the strongest unit the Empire has to offer, I could see this as ultimate technology which the Technecus can deploy. Limit in numbers and expensive.

    Special rules: Master Engineer Commander: the Tank has a Master Engineer who gains experiences and skills like regular ones, but does have special tank related abilities.

    Commentary: I actual would let people build it. Alternative you would get excess to it, during Invasion or as Quest rewards. But I tend to let it the big price in the end of the tech tree.

    Celestial Hurricanum

    A special magical device it can cast a special spell which belongs to the “Heaven” lore. Creates randomly one of 6 effects (most are different degrees of damage).

    Special rule: if strong enough mages of the Heaven can joint the unit.
    Extra Energy. Battle aura: troops fight better close by.

    Commentary: this could be made available by a strong Mage of the heavens or thanks to the highest patriarch or similar as the steam tank as part of the research tree or be an invasion only unit.

    Luminark of Hysh

    Device of the college of Light magic, has a powerful attack spell which attacks laser alike, specially strong against the undead or daemons.

    Special rule: if strong enough mages of the Light can joint the unit.
    Extra Energy. Protection aura: troops close by get a little protection.

    Commentary: Similar problem as by Celsetial Hurricanum.

    Pretty much all of the Units could have a special variant for a certain province or a special hero unit. Things like “Carroburger Greetswords” or “Swords of Ulric” could add more units to the roaster even if they would not be totally different from others.

    Sea units:

    As mention before, the lore about sea battles in Warhammer is mostly old. I have to admit that I don’t have excess to “Dreadfleet” and the online descriptions are pretty vague. So here is more room for speculation and new creations. Empire ships should have some mixed crew in general (hand gunners, crossbowmen, swordsmen, “marines” with pistols and swords), how ever it would be still thinkable to do it like Rome 2 and make ships with a specialty crew (crossbows, muskets, or said marines). But I wouldn’t make it so extreme like give a ship only Crossbowmen/swords men ect.
    Instead an Imperial boarding ship could have let’s say 160 men crew. 60 of those would be simply crew. 20 would be hand gunners and crossbowmen and the rest if the 80 would be the swordsmen or “marines” (depending on what you bought or maybe should there just “marines”). Overall I would like the crew more similar to Empire than the one unit type only ships of Rome 2.

    Gallery’s:

    The Empire uses different shape and sizes of gallery’s, with cannons (front and broadsides) and ram torn.

    Iron fist

    A gallery with one giant cannon put in the bow, this ship is basically only that: one giant swimming cannon.

    Greatship

    This ship uses only sails and is basically a carrack. It also represents the strongest conventional Ship the Imperial Navy has.

    Gallery with great Mortal

    I think this one explain it self. The mortal has the advantages that it attacks from above, meaning it could easier make crucial hit which leaks water in.

    Commentary: Now these 4-5 sips (they are four different version of Gallery’s, which main differences is size) are all what the lore offers. So now I’m going to be creative. (Insert mad laughter).

    Gallery armed with Helstorm Rocket Battery

    I liked rocket ships in Empire, also it seems logical to put land artillery on a ship (since, well that is how cannons got there in the first place). I put this of a gallery, because galleries are suppose to make the main force of the Empire, also here it could replace bow cannon while still having broadsides. Compare to the Empire rocket ship, it would be more durable and could better fight conventional. However the rockets, imprecise but devastating, would put it in danger it of critical hits.

    Greatships with Helblaster Volley Gun

    Since Greatships has more room for broadside batteries, I think a version which replaces its broadside cannons with Helblaster Volley Gun would be fun. Shorter range than the normal ships, its volleys should be devastating.
    I’m thinking of about 3 per side.

    Greatships with Griffon riders

    As mention before, the navy of Warhammer use air units as well, so hence you would get “carrier” ships like this one. It exchanges some of its cannons and other crew for space for the griffon's.

    Magic ship?

    Now since there are magical war machine for land (Luminark of Hysh and Celestial Hurricanum), it would be thinkable that something like that exist for the sea as well (even if it never got mention before). Which magic lore it would be however is the question (I think it would be silly, to give all 8 an “own” special ship). Instincts tells Heaven, but that would be a problem since the Celestial Hurricanum is unique (it’ can’t be mass produce) and so a “Celestial Hurricanum Shiptum” would be out of the question.
    Fire Magic would be also a contender (since it is interesting to use fire against ships), but over all I think it would be better to add Magic in the navy through mages.

    Shrine Ship of Sigma

    This would be a big ship (not a gallery) with a very sigma fanatic crew ready for boarding action, while still heavy armed with cannons. This could have “prayers” (more about that later) and give moral boost to nearby ships. Also it would get bonuses against Undead, Chaos or sea Monster.

    “Prototype” imperial Ironclad

    The Navy counterpart of the Steamtank, it would be the ultimate price for research. Imitating the Dwarves (which have regular Ironclads), the Empire develop its own version of a mighty steam ship. The weapons could consist of Helblaster as well as one big cannon in sort of main gun turret.

    Commentary: This one would be a challenge, because the question would be how good you can board it. If that doesn’t work as it should, it could be a mayor downer for all the other fleets. In case you wonder: Dwarves would have regular Ironclads, but there would be very expensive. So a full stack fleet of the Empire maybe couldn’t take on a full stack of the Dwarves, but the Empire could afford more stacks.

    Experimental “dive boat”

    The tileatic genius “Leonardo da Miragliano” experiment on this field and perhaps another Master Engineer finish the work. Armed with torpedoes as well with a cannon for surface warfare.

    Commentary: This would be a challenge to balance, but I think it can be done. Making it weak and vulnerable when on the surface, its diving time should be limited. Range of its weapons should be short, also it should be slow.
    It would be also thinkable to not let it have torpedoes, but rather a under water ram bow.
    Of course much research must be done before this one can be used. And even if this seems to be unpractical, I think the Empire has enough different ships by now.

    Conclusion: both on Land and Sea the Empire has access to a lot of different kinds of units. On land the state troop’s infantry make the core of the Army, supported by heavy knights, and strong artillery.
    Keep in mind that thing like Knights with great weapons could either be an option for the unit you choose before the battle or a different unit.
    On sea, you can choose between galleries, which are less depended on sails, or Greatships, with generally more firepower, but only have sails. Also you would have some variety of devastating weapons, since it relays more on artillery and range than boarding.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    Characters of the Empire:

    Here I wanna give a description of what the characters can learn for skill (not in all detail of course), describe the gear options and talk where you can recruit them and what they useful.

    General: He is one of the best melee fighters of the Empire. Which is clear his focus. His “Fighting” skill tree would contain mainly skill for melee fight, some abilities for range, but most would be about melee fight. Also as mention things like riding giving him the option to use mount better than horses or improving his stats in health, defence skill, offensive skill or give him the ability to wear more magical gear.*
    His leadership abilities would focus of the moral of the own troop and general buffing them, negatives for the enemy would be rather rare. Campaign movement or entrenchments could be there as well.
    Statesman would be the government side, since generals are lords of the empire and it would be thinkable that they could get parts of a province as title (a certain village, a city, castle or even a whole province) to boost. This could be attractive for Generals which are mainly defending the homeland.

    *that deepens on how the magic gear works in detail.

    Gear:

    Armor: can reach the very top of the armor class, even without magic equipment (need a barding warhorse). Some of the best protect characters of the game.

    Weapon: can have one handed weapons, combine with a shield or a pistol. He can also have a great weapon and bow or musket.

    Magical gear: can have the use the most powerful magic gear the empire has to offers (besides things which are mages only). The effects can be very different, from more damage, of causing fear, making immune against fear, better defence from damage, defence from enemy magic and many other effects as well.

    Mounts: Starts with Warhorses (with or without barding), but can also gets a Pegasus (a fast flyer, little bit stronger than a regular horse) and finally can ride a powerful griffon. While slightly slower as the pegasi (also less flying range), this creature is far more dangerous for the enemy. A General on a griffon and some magical weapon (the empire has some good ones), should be a something which can easily can go on its own and be a mighty force (as long the other side doesn’t use nobles on dragons or something like that).
    Both Pegasus and Griffon can have certain updates.

    Useable: Can have portions, only usable while not fighting and only one per battle (the can be more in the inventory for future battles).

    Where to get? He comes either from the ruling family. Or other Nobles or the Building like a military academy.

    Use in fleets? No, the Fleets get Admiral, which are somewhat similar but not entirely.

    Captains: they are basically small Generals. Not as strong as them, but still decent. They can take the job which the general doesn’t can do (as being on the other flank) or refuses to do (do the fighting, when the generals are more into stay behind the main battle line and shouting).
    The army standard wearer is base on the Captain.
    His skill trees would be similar of that of the General, however since he wouldn’t be noble enough for titles I would assume to replace “statesmen” with “logistics” making this skill tree all about replenishment, movement and training.

    Gear:

    Armor: the same as the General, pretty much the best (non magical) armor of the game.

    Weapon: same options as the General.

    Magical gear: here are starting the differences between the Captain and the General. Captains can not use the most powerful gear and have much more limits.

    Mounts: Gets denied the Griffon, besides that, he can have all the other mounts the General can get.

    Usable: Can have portions, only usable while not fighting and only one per battle (the can be more in the inventory for future battles).

    Where to get? From the military academy. Also possible that is a General dies; a blank captain takes his place till the replacement comes (if a experience Captain is in the Army, he could take over or even be promoted to general).

    Use in fleets? Probably not, but could be happen or have something similar to it, which acts as “small” Admiral.

    Battle Standard Bearer: As mention, every army has a own Standard. His stats should be similar to the of the captain. He would only have 2 Skill trees and the third spot would be the army traditions, which lvl up individually and stays the same even if the bearer himself dies.
    His first skill would be simply making him harder and better, the 2nd however could be about "bodyguard" the general or improving the radius of the Standard. Also additional Moral boost would be possible, since that is one of the main function of the Standard.

    Gear:

    Armor: the same as the General, pretty much the best (non magical) armor of the game.

    Weapon: same options as the General.

    Magical gear: can only spent half the point generals have for magic items. They also have access to magical banners, which boots the unit which they are in or perhaps units in a certain radius. When he uses one of those, he can't have other magical items (I would except healing portions of this rule).

    Mounts: Gets denied the Griffon, besides that, he can have all the other mounts the General can get. You usually you would want him to join either a knight or infantry unit, to boost them.

    Usable: Can have portions, only usable while not fighting and only one per battle (the can be more in the inventory for future battles).

    Commentary: since Banners are items, it could be thinkable that in order to "reinstated a legend" you first must recapture the flag.

    Admiral: well they are you counterparts to the general but have some change in attitude.
    They would be less turn into a one man army, even thou they could use a griffon in theory; I will assume here that his role is another.
    His first skill tree would be “Commanding”, which would include things which boost the performance of the other ships, perhaps have special abilities as well. The second tree would be about the crew of his own ship. Improving its performance, as well adding more crew-members to the ships he is joining, specializing the crew in one way or the other. Example: a skill could add a guard unit of 20 greatswords to the ships crew, on which he is serving, making it harder to board and improving its own ability to board others. Another example would be to add 10 Hochland jaegers (musket snipers) to the crew to give it some additional range combat.
    Of course the whole thing has the problematic, to add to much crew on a ship, so you would need to limit the amount of extra addable crew and most of the skills would about making the crew simply better (faster reload, higher moral, better in putting out fire ect), but I still think it would be a cool skill tree.
    The last one would be about improve movement, better piracy, better intercept range and all the other things that navy do on the map itself.

    Gear:

    Armor: the same as the General, pretty much the best (non magical) armor of the game.

    Weapon: same options as the General.

    Magical gear: same options as the General.

    Mounts: No. While it would be thinkable to give him a Pegasus or Griffon, right now I would prefer if the admiral stays on one of the ships.

    Usable: Same as the general.

    Where to get? Can be part of the families, but mostly will be from one of the other nobles families. When a fleet is founding one is there, if he must replace because he died, he would spawn in the nearest harbour (connected to the capital) and must either pick up or be transported to the navy by another fleet or patrolling fleet.

    Use on Land? No.

    Commentary: In the old sea battle game for warhammer “Man O’War”, was one feature that characters could survive the sinking of a ship and would be on a wrecked for a certain time. So other ships would have the chance to pick them up. For me this would have same charm in order to let characters live longer on see.


    Commodore:
    Does what Captain do on land for the Generals: be there who they are not and also leading the “patrol fleets”. His skills would be the smaller scale of the admiral

    Armor: the same as the Admiral, pretty much the best (non magical) armor of the game.

    Weapon: same options as the Admiral.

    Magical gear: same options as the Captain.

    Mounts: No. While it would be thinkable to give him a Pegasus, right now I would prefer if the Commodore stays on one of the ship.

    Usable: Same as the Captain.

    Where to get? Neither from the military academy or in war harbours.

    Use on Land? No.

    Battle wizards: the mages of the Empire can only one of the 8 lore’s, but the fact that they do have every one of them gives the empire great flexibility, even thou you need to decide what the Wizard shall learn, while recruiting him.
    His role is not to be a fighter, since his close combat is lacking, as well as his armor/health. Hence he will be likely with a range unit or in a unit behind the main line.
    In one skill tree he will learn new spells from his lore (usually you have always random spell in the Tabletop, which for the game I would change) and may improve its special ability or give the spell context sensitive extras (Fireballs gain extra damage against gates, “Air push” can be use on the sails of friendly ships ect.). The next skill tree would be pretty general and contain mostly thing like generate energy (sometimes both some times specialized), ban enemy spells or better/more use of magical gear.
    The last one would be about the bonus a wizard can give you in the campaign map or at least outside direct battle action. This would depend again which school the mage has. Metal mages could generate money.* Fire could reduce attrition throu cold. Live magic cold heal troops after the battle (or cities which are ill) and so on so on.

    *there is a Story how the Emperor “Karl Franz” uses his best Metal mage to transform the gold reserves of one Count to plumb. So sabotage actions of mages would be on the table as well. Overall I would like to reduce sabotages action of agents, since they are mostly frustrating because of the cheating AI.

    Gear:

    Armor: Nothing. Without using a magical amour (most he can’t wear) he has no armour.

    Weapon: Hand weapon, his real weapons are his magic.

    Magical gear: Important to him to improve his cast abilities. He gets access to “Mages only” magical gear no other Character of the Empire can wear. Also the only armor a Wizard can war is in this section (assuming that one certain armor from the 6th edition would be in the game). He does have access to things which gives invaluable saves.

    Mounts: Warhorse with and without barding.

    Usable: Additional to portions, can have things which give either defensive or offensive magic energy during battle. Also he can wear the important (and not too cheap) ban scrolls which allow him to ban a single enemy spell without using ban energy. As always you can only use every usable once per battle, but carry more for further battles.

    Where to get? There is only one Magical academy in the Empire (in Altdorf), hence you won’t build it anywhere else (if it get destroyed maybe?). But you will get to build “Outpost” of the academy. Which allows you hire every a Wizard of very lore at level. 1. After that you could expand that building for push one of the lore’s to get certain bonuses from the building (extra gold from Metal for example) and hire Wizards of a higher level (all other lore stay level. 1).
    So should give you a chance to both specialize yourself and still have the option for other lore open.

    Use in fleets? Yes, the spells will have slightly modified effects (context sensitive). Some lore will be more interesting for fleets than other (fireballs against gunpowder ships everyone?), but I don’t think that is a problem.

    Lord Wizard: He is basically a promotion for a very experience wizard.

    Gear:

    Armor: same as Battle Wizard.

    Weapon: same as Battle Wizard.

    Magical gear: can have more and more powerful items, which clearly makes him stronger. Maybe our two magical war machines are upgrades for the Heaven lore and Light lore.

    Mounts: besides the Warhorse, they can get a Pegasus. If they use the Beast lore they can get also griffon's.

    Usable: Mostly the same as for other Battle Wizards. Some more powerful available.

    Where to get? Maybe from the Academy (Altdorf) or from the highest tier for the “outpost” building (from the specialized lore), otherwise battles harden Battle Wizard who got the promotion.

    Use in fleets? The same as Battle Wizards.

    Warrior Priest of Sigmar: a preacher who preaches war. He is a good fighter, but not to extend, where he can beat most of the high class fighters. His job is more of boosting the fighting power of the unit he is in, by simply enlighten the fire of they faith in them or using his battle prayers.
    For those he need Magic energy (which he can produce) and they work like spells, but he is not a Wizard (hence certain magical gear he can’t get) and he doesn’t chooses a Lore but has 3 prayers (I’m orientation myself on the newest edition here). Two of them are blessings, the third are damage spells which of course is stronger against undead and Daemons.
    His first skill tree is based on his prayers. Improving them and also improving his ability to generate energy (even thou he will not be as good as a mage in this field). The second tree should about his fighting abilities and the improvements he can give your units outside of magic.
    When it comes to the campaign maps, his last skill tree can improve his religion conversation skill (he is a priest after all), but also can have things like happiness or skills which make the other members of the army more faithful and more loyal (he could be father confessor of the General for example).

    Gear:

    Armor: comes with light amour, but can get heavy. While good, he can’t reach the class of Captain or Generals without using magical gear.

    Weapon: can have on other hand weapon (increases attack speed) or a great weapon (more damage).

    Magical gear: Can have gear similar as the Captains, since special gear for Mages is not available to him.

    Mounts: Warhorses with and without barding.

    Useable: Same as Captain.

    Where to get? A church of Sigma should do the trick.

    Use in fleets? Yes. You could make the argument that instead of sigma priest you should have a priest of the empire sea god, but I don’t think that this adds too much to the game.
    His role on ships would be to help boarding or defend against boarding.

    Arch Lector: he is an experience Warrior Sigma Priest. Besides his political role (he influences the Grand Theogonist), he is also a far more powerful fighter and has more options in the magical gear.

    Gear:

    Armor: Same as the Warrior Priest.

    Weapon: Same as the Warrior Priest.

    Magical gear: has the same excess to use magical gear as Generals.

    Mounts: Besides the warhorses, he could get excess to the War Altar of Sigma (a chariot with magic abilities and quite powerful). This however should only be the case after you earn high favour of the Grand Theodogonist, since it is something he would use himself and there is only one.

    Usable: Same as the Warrior Priest.

    Where to get? You get of your Warrior Priest promoted.

    Use in fleets? Same as the Warrior Priest.

    Master Engineer: He is one of the half genius half mad inventors of the Technicus academy. His isn’t much of a melee fighter, but he is good at shooting and improving the shooting of other empire units, most important the artillery.
    His first skill should be about the construction of more advance and crazier weapons. It would be also thinkable that this gives your access to give the champions of other range units, special weapons (remember those options for the champion of hand gunners, pistolier and outriders?) and made the Outriders available. Of course he would use the weapons himself too.
    The second would be about improving the shooting abilities of empire range units and most important of its cannons. He could be also improvement of reloading times and special abilities like one absolute precise volley (obvious a very late skill).
    The third skill tree should be about use of technology in civil life (better mines, safe money during construction ect.).

    Gear:

    Armor: only light armor.

    Weapon: Standard pistol, but he can get a “sniper” (he can aim at enemy characters first as well the “commando” of units), grenade launcher (BOOOM! Strong against heavy units), or a kind of SMG called repeater gun, also available as pistol and finally pigeon bombs.

    Magical gear: the same Captains.

    Mounts: warhorse with and without barding. Also a Mechanical horse with some special features (admittedly not that useful, since you don’t wanna go in close combat with him).

    Usable: same as Captains

    Where to get? Since the Academy is in Altdorf as well, I think an update to the smith could provide him or a building like a outpost of the Technicus academy, which would boost your economy in same way as well (probably something like mining).

    Use in fleets? Yes, I think his ability to boost accuracy and reloading will be very useful to warships as well. Perhaps you could also get repair abilities for him?

    Commentary: There is a lot you could ad to the possibilities of this characters, thinks like mines, or fighting statues. The same goes for abilities as well, even thou I would connected most of them to the equipment (like with the sniper ability).

    Witchhunter: hunts down the illegal users of magic and all wicked and heretic creatures. He hunts down enemy’s mages and other characters. He has of course a special fable for chaos and the undead. His main tool will be his pistols.
    While deployment he can those of the enemy characters as his main target, which he can hit very easy and where he gets a bonus to fight against. He also helps the unit he is in to dealing with fear and with Defense against magic (about 1/3 less damage).
    He first skill tree should be about “the hunt” and give him abilities to fight more effective against enemy single characters or even extend his list of targets. Next in line would be “Purity”. This skill tree strengthens his effects on friendly units in protection of fear and magic, also his personal stats.
    On the Campaign map he cold act as a spy and be responsible for expanding sight of the army as well protection the army against enemy agents.

    Gear:

    Armor: only light armor.

    Weapon: Pistol, pair of pistols or great weapon.

    Magical gear: same as Captain.

    Mounts: none.

    Usable: same as Captain.

    Where to get? Well it could be through a church update or through other buildings (they should be connected with law and order).

    Use in fleets? Yes, however outside fighting Undead/Chaos fleets. I don’t see the use for him. Of course you could put him of a boarding strong ship, to hunt enemy admirals to kill them, since he still could has the pistol pair; he maybe could simply shoot him without boarding.

    Grand Master: Leader of one of the Knight Orders, he is a powerful political Leader, a great military leader and the best melee fighter of the empire! Under his command the knights will fight till the bitter end.
    His first skill tree is all about his fighting ability to make him an even better fighter. The second would be improving knights units (especially the one he is leading). For third one I don’t really have an idea. It could be something like giving access to the more elite knight units or something like giving your influence in the Empire, maybe more replenishment? Would be pretty similar, to the General, so I’m half temped just to further improves his combat skills. On the other hand, the captain could change his 3. skill tree to the same the General has (since the General is a sort of upgrade) and than the Grand Master would get his (training the troops). Another possibility would be that the 3. skill tree would depend which order it is.

    Gear:

    Armor: the best the Empire (and the game) has to offer.

    Weapon: Hand weapon, great weapon, lances and shield

    Magical gear: the same as the General

    Mounts: has a Warhorse with barding.

    Usable: the same as the General

    Where to get? As I mention earlier, the Grant Master should only join you if you have excellent relationship with him and his order. I would make “Glory” earn by successful using units of that order, the main currency. There could be other condition are things an order like, like building certain temples, or fighting against a certain enemy. For some a low casualty rate would be important as well.
    Do you can have more than one? Yes, since there should be a couple of Knight Orders.

    Use in fleets? No. There is no reason that, outside as get transported, a Grand Master should be on a ship.

    Conclusion: The possibilities are almost endless, with 4 slots for characters. It could be a hard choice who gets to join which army and how to mix them.
    For the gear, keep in mind that in the magical gear sections has both weapons and armor as well.
    The characters should have a arrange life expectancies, both in terms of ageing (they are human expect 60-70 years) and survivability, especially if there are a front army. If you see a General died in his bed, should be either a sign that he wasn’t fighting too much or that he was an absolute hero. Unless they got the fines magic gear (of course there isn’t enough for every of your armies), it should be hard to bring all supporting chars through hard battles. Not to the “cannon fodder” extend, but there should be a need to rotate new people from the homeland in the armies/fleets, at least for the armies who do hard fighting, but don’t have the luxury of the protection gear.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    Gear and Research:

    Now with the regular gear I would say that simply building smith/stables should make widely available.
    With the more special mount I would say you need to build able to that tier and have the Char be in the Province to get it or have it “deliver” to him. The Production of special magical gear could be part of the tech tree.
    I like to point out that in the Warhammer world you have some general items every faction can use (which means that they can be conquered from defeated enemies), but also each faction has some unique Items which usually only existed once (some exceptions).
    Some items are actually there right from the beginning and even some pretty powerful ones. In the Empire for example every province start with a “Runefang” which is one of the best weapons in the game, the Empire itself has only one better.
    But back the generals Items: some of them may be able to be produce (especially things which you only use once) and cold exist more than once in the World. Many of the more powerful however would only exist once. Some of them cold be “found” (beating the **** out its former owner), others you can get through quest. Maybe there could be market or auction houses. The last would be nice to sell things you can’t use.
    In inspiration of the “Age of Wonders” series: limited creation of items which can choose between different stats and effects would be possible also.
    Exchanging items should also be in the diplomatic menu.

    For the Empire things like the “meteor iron armor” or “Van Horstmanns Speculum” would be things you could build. First you would to research it in of the trees, after that you would need the buildings and finally you should need special materials (own or through trade)

    Speaking of research: besides of your military building tree, civil building tree, general tactics tree and “politics” tree. I would like to see a “Technicus” and a “Magic Academy” tree as well. The first would improve you gunpowder weapons and give excess to the things like the steam tank or the iron clad and the later would make it possible to create the gear, potions and the use of the magical war machines.

    Sub factions of the Empire:

    As mention the Empire dived itself in 10 provinces. It would be cool to let all be playable, but realistic is this not. So here I will briefly introduce the provinces and tell what the difference cold be, who has to be playable, who would be nice to be playable (or perhaps come later as DLC? Let not forget reality) and who will likely not playable.

    Averland:

    In the south of the empire Averland is famous for his Warhorses and hence wealthy. The trade routs to the south help also. Its army should beside better/cheaper cavalry, also be have bonus of crossbows and mercenaries (the Warhammer world knews quite a few).
    Averland is defiantly a candidate for a playable faction, since it is quite interesting. The region it is in is both rich as dangerous as well since from east Orcs are a potential threat, but besides from that, is it rather “quite” (keep potential civil wars in mind). This gives the player the oppurtinity to build up and expand into the relative weak southern neighbours’ of the border princesses or the Halflings.

    Hochland

    The smallest province of the Empire surrounded only by other provinces, which on one hand gives security and the other takes away opportunity to expand. It would make for interesting special units (“Jaeger” aka skirmisher elite muskets).
    In the end I would not recommend this faction to be made playable, unless you made it the 8th. The fact you only can expand with civil wars, would be quite nuts. Even if the civil wars would be limited to 1 vs. 1 province at the start (which could escalade).

    Stirland

    Poor and fanatic in the faith of Sigma. Close to the Vampires and at the start of the game: head of the Empire, its Count is the Emperor. Which is the reason I think it shouldn’t be a playable faction, because starting as Emperor would feel as a shortcut in the gameplay, since being the emperor should be you goal not your status.
    Other than that, they would have interesting hunter units (classical bow) and also better excess to Sigma Warrior Priest.

    Middenland

    Home of the Wolf, here the God Ulric is more presents than Sigma, which can lead to problem if his church shall elect you to emperor. Except from this disadvantage, the cult is a big triumph card with is main city Middenheim (a very big fortress like city) and his extra harder battle units. Hard units however it will take, since beastmen are a constant threat for the safety of the province and that expand can almost only happen on the cost of other empire factions.
    Besides special swordsmen and the Knight of the Wolf (a practical strong Knight order, with love for great weapons instead of lances), there is the opportunity to replace Sigma Warrior Priest, with an Ulric Warrior Priest with other skills.
    This make me think that, combine with other smaller faction from the others races and to a fair price, this could be DLC material. Not just a faction, with new units, but one with a character as well. While having them for “free” from the start is better, I view this as acceptable realistic view of things.

    Nordland

    Now we are getting to the frontline. Having most of the Empire coast, navy units and perhaps marine units (inspire by “Call to Warhammer”), would be the finest in the Empire. And you will need them, because both the Warrior of Chaos, as the Dark Elves are going to invite themselves regularly into your territory to raid.
    I would put those high on the list “should be playable”, since he experience player could have a challenge with the constant threat.
    A question mark however is the City of Marienburg. At the beginning of the game (2400), it would be one of your cities, your wealthiest city to be precise. However in the year 2429 you should “historically” lose this city, due a corrupt emperor. If this gets implemented, it could annoy a lot of people, to lose a very important city, without them able to do everything about it, besides conquering it.

    Ostermark

    While separated from Chaos thanks to Kislev, do not think this would be an easy province. Kislev will need your constant help to survive. Let’s not forget that the east has dangers of its own, so you will be busy on all fronts.
    Your units however should be one of the hardest as well.
    Certainly a faction to consider, even thou I would them rather on the 2nd tier.

    Ostland

    2nd Province whit coast excess and border to Kislev, which means trouble and that you, will be very busy. Has some of the courageous units of all the Empire.
    This one would be on my first list of factions to be playable. Challenging starting position, interesting troops, both sea and land combat. Most important however is that the uniforms they wear a kind of cool.

    Reikland

    Has to be playable, no discussion. The faction who in the Warhammer presents provides the Emperor should be playable. Also it would be very fun to play, since it has a magnificent advantage over the other provinces: Altdorf.
    Not only is it build on Sigma’s birth place (extra love from the Sigma Church, which has 3 votes in the Emperor election), but it has the magic academy (provides Lord Battle Wizards in all lore’s and advantages in income and research) and as well the Technicus academy (not in it’s final form, but already useful in research und other bonus as well).
    And btw, Altdorf is also rich and good to defend.
    Let’s not forget that it has a very good starting position. No direct borders to the mayor enemies of the empire (you will have green visitors from the south however), it borders both on Bretonnia as well the Wood elves, which on one hand should provide support, if a chaos or Orcs or what ever starts a invasion, but are also good target to expand.
    This combine makes me think, that this is a perfect start for a beginner.

    Talabecland

    Has a legendary city (Talabheim), small elite troops and no boarders except other empire provinces. Sorry but I don’t think it would make the cut, since its position is to idle. You are basically in the 2nd rank and who wants to be 2nd rank if he/she can be first?

    Wissenland

    The South of the Empire, with one of its most important citys: Nuln. Nuln is home of all of the Empire artillery, which should provide the best gunpowder weapons (as well artillery), income (all other provinces are buying your cannons) and research since Nuln is also a mayor intellectual place. (Funfact: if you translate the name it is “knowledgeland”)
    Has room to expand, but also lives with the threat of Orcs attacking. Since I like gun warfare I would like to see this as a playable faction, also I found it reasonable. It has an interesting advantage, has a good position and one of the things that make the empire great in the fist place: gunpowder!

    Conclusion:
    I would assume that we could get 3-4 playable sub faction per faction. Having this in mind I think the priority would be the following:
    1. Reikland, I booked “no disagreement” on this one, sorry.
    2. Ostland or Nordland, perhaps both. You would need a faction which is harder as the rest (in context of the empire) and these are the only once’s which have a navy in the beginning and for a long time probably.
    3. Wissenland or Averland perhaps both. These are both interesting from the bonus and both represent an important part of the empire warfare (Wissenland guns and Averland cavalry).
    4. Middenheim. While I think as it of DLC material, it still comes of number six (2 and 3 have two factions, hence the six). Very interesting and unique faction thanks to the twist with the Ulric cult and all the changes that brings or could bring (perhaps a second “pope”?).
    5. Ostmark. Has potential, but overall I would like Ostland more and both of them would be a little weird (they are neighbours), assuming the 3-4 numbers of subfactions.
    6. Talabceland and Hochland. While they have interesting features (like a special city and units), they suffer from the fact that they are 2nd rank, without not Empire neighbours.
    7. Stirland. It is the last, because it has the Emperor title as the game starts.


    Final note: Whenever I wrote “neighbours of the Orcs/Chaos”, I didn’t mean literary, since Kislev, Dwarves or water are between them.

    The Emperor:

    I described the function of the Emperor and who elect him. Now I wanna talk about strategies to become Emperor and why some one would do that in the first place.
    In order to become Emperor the most “normal” way would be to get a majority of the votes. Since the Sigma Church has 3, getting it on your side would be important. Besides them you would have a halfling as elector which would be easy to bribe (invite him to dinner often). The rest however would be the Counts of other provinces. Getting them to vote for you, will not be easy and can only be done if they don’t hate because you took land of them. Also they should be unhappy of the ruling Emperor. The most effective way to make them happy, is to fight with them against they enemy (that can include other provinces) or give them gifts.
    When the ruling Emperor is unpopular (because he lost against chaos or he sold a province he didn’t own), than you could lead a rebellion against the Emperor. If you get enough support, he should resign. If you however don’t have enough support. Than you have probably just started a big civil war. The winner gets the price.
    Of course you can start a civil war quite directly, but keep in mind that during that time, most of the Ai faction will be easy to raid (you probably also) and hence a big Invasion would be more likely. That would end the civil war for a while, but it still would hit you, while you and all you allies are wounded.

    Now the big question: why have the all the trouble?

    The first would be two additional Runefangs to your arsenal (in the beginning the Empire had 12 provinces) and also the only weapon even better: Ghal Maraz. No weapon of the Empire is better than this one. And finally, if you build the “stables” to the last tier and your emperor has a high riding skill. You get to use the one and only Dragon of the Empire. Of course this assumes that your Emperor is a warrior himself and not just a bureaucrat sitting in his capital.
    But there is more than just shine toys. There are the “Empire titles”.
    You can choose from the Empires Captains (ALL of them) a “Champion of the Emperor”, which will ad to you as character. Besides one special weapon (connected to his rank) and a special Standard (you create your “Emperor” Standard), he also has the ability to ensure loyalty in other Factions of the Empire (of course that require loyalty in you). He could also act as Standard bearer in the Army of the Emperor, as such he would be allowed to use both magical gear and a magical Standard (otherwise not allowed).
    Another title would be the “Marshall”, which would boost of your Generals.
    Also let's not forget the changes which it brings diplomatic: more respect and more options (you can now decided on behalf of the whole).
    I hope that this would be reason enough to want to be Emperor.

    Smaller Imperial Institutions:

    I talked about the two big Institutions (Emperor and Grand Thegonist) and mention the Knight Orders. But there are at least two more of them which would be worth to talk about.
    The first is the Patriarch of the Magic Academy. I mention him earlier in the Unit section and little surprise he is the leader of the Wizards in the empire (to some extend). Why would he be important? Well he could have the power over the magical war machines for once, but more important he would boost the magic lore he is from. If a fire Wizard is the Patriarch, than fire will get bonuses of their spells, if he is from the beast, than beast gets a boost. So if you wanna attack the Tomb Kingdoms than perhaps it would be nice to have a Patriarch, who is from the magic lore of light, to have extra strong magic against them.
    He could also grant special gear for Wizards and get some himself (he will keep fighting).
    How can a Wizard get to become Patriarch? Well all 8 years there is a chance for a duel, so the strongest of the Wizard would challenge him; if his master desires so (he could get killed). So in Order for you, to get your Lord battle Wizard on the top, you must be sure that he is the very best. This would also boost the respect other provinces have for you.
    Very little surprise, the Technicus academy would be another contender and could work by simply having the most of the high level Technicuses. This however would be a rather optional mechanic, since the Empire is complex enough and since most or the gear would be researchable, I don’t think we would need it. What should it give to you? Sure there could be a boost for research in that field, bonuses for Technicuses or in recruitment ect. Maybe the outriders or the steam tank, but as mention earlier I would have the steam tank rather the ultimate reward and outriders alone looks unit wise rather small. Also I think the skill tree of the Technicus that provides weapons fits better than needing influence in the whole of the academy.

    General Gameplay feeling:

    An Empire player would be busy “cleaning house” at the start of the game as well as slowly expand and building up. The faction around are areas to expand on the one hand, on the other there are shields against your worst enemies, so you should be careful not to weaken too much.
    Then however there should be the rise to emperor title an important point, at the same time the invasions are start to come and you will have some hard time to both repeal attacks and expand. After the fist waves of invasions, you should either cleaning house again (in the case you couldn’t stop them or the Ai lost some) or go more offensive and start to conquer more. Depending how lucky you are with Invasion and how strong you are you should be able to withstand invasion now and still be able to move forward.
    Now is probably the time where overextension becomes the main problem, if you can mange that then you are likely on the way to the point, where you can exterminate not just smaller factions, but also one by one the mayor threats. Once’s none of the factions have an invasion mode, things will get relative easy, since the “good” factions don’t have a defence mechanism against your attacks the same they would repeal invasions.
    However in general you will probably need the absolute best or more than one stack against some of the enemy factions as well the other good ones like elves and dwarves. The same goes character wise, since good equip high elves lord (they can have dragons) chaos Generals will be a tough to beat. Against others (goblins/skaven) you can be outnumbered 5:1 and still win.*

    *Keep in mind that those faction do have bigger units to begin with.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited October 2014
    So that would be my "vision" for a W:TW. Sorry that it is so much text, but I hope at least some people here find it worth to read (and maybe some of CA workers as well...). For those who you have different Ideas for features and solution for the challanges, feel welcome to write them.
    Should you find the lack of your faction disturbing, feel free to add it and descripe it like I did with the Empire. Would be nice however, if it fits in the Gameplay mechanics I laid down.

    With friendly greetings,
    SiWi
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  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKPosts: 3,882Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Hey, some long post right there, will find some time tomorrow to read it, thought I'm one of few here from forum interested in this concept... and let's hope it will happen. I also posted few suggestions in other threads and what would be great to see in this title.

    I'm interested in how they would balance armies... I mean some of them have no emotions like Undeads, or Chaos they do not fear and fight to the last one, when men of the Empire would normally flee in terror.. apart from some like Witch Hunters or Warrior Priests with faith in Sigmar and inspiring courage to face anything out there.

    I for one want to see some CA mods/ devs to step out and talk more about Warhammer project it's been... well 3 yrs since there is news about license from GW.
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • cenkisscenkiss Senior Member Posts: 201Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I think you should just forget tabletop rules. They are there to emulate a battle scene and since total war already has that live battle scene they are mostly unnecessary.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    cenkiss wrote: »
    I think you should just forget tabletop rules. They are there to emulate a battle scene and since total war already has that live battle scene they are mostly unnecessary.

    I found them useful to transtlate the strenght and characritics of the units of the tabletop, into the game. Of course you can take some freedoms, but overall I think that the rules should be the guideline, specially since many things simply don't exist in TW (like magic and generation ect.).

    Well I'm not too concerded about the balance, since Warhammer need to balance things out themself. "Call to Warhammer" showed that balance between the undead (which in the mod always fight ot the "death") and the living is possible. I more concerced about single units, like for example "Outriders". You can read my solution for that problem, by the unit description.



    Finally I think a asemetric balance would be intresting as well.
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  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    cenkiss wrote: »
    I think you should just forget tabletop rules. They are there to emulate a battle scene and since total war already has that live battle scene they are mostly unnecessary.

    The rules shouldn't be completely ignored either, many of them are what give the faction some added uniqueness. I, in the past, have enjoyed playing the Greenskins on table top because they can be unpredictable. To me, they wouldn't be the same faction without animosity and stupidity. But for many others they would tell me to shut up as they fear a perfect gaming getting messed up by this and wouldn't want it, but as those are some of defining characteristics of many of the Greenskin units I would say they are needed and if you don't enjoy that kind of play style don't play the Greenskins. another example is the Slain General Rule for the Vampire Counts where the undead army takes damage and begins to crumble for the loss of the General.

    The original poster is an example of someone who is also in conflict with my thoughts (only stating that we are of differing opinions, nothing more) as I love unpredictability, it often times forces you to think quickly or adjust your strategy. I would like to see wizards still have a chance to blow themselves up, to me, it adds in a strategic risk, do I cast the spell and risk losing that mage who I have leveled up or do I hold him in reserve? Do I base my strategy around my artillery that could fail/explose/break? Many of these rules are what makes Warhammer Fantasy Battle what it is and not just everyone else's fantasy game.

    These rules can also give some balance, such as miscasts, which helps to offset the power of spells and won't have you throwing magic around without regard. Another example is undead being unbreakable and cause fear but also having unstable and suffering from the Dead General Rule makes it important from a strategic perspective to be mindful of your generals and not lose them, or from the other sides perspect, to maybe risk more in an attempt to destroy the character. It adds lays to the gameplay for me. I won't always be using the same tactic as my tactical objectives will alter, those trolls went stupid, I can go wide and finish off that group of Black Orcs and then deal with them.

    Some rule do need to be removed though and I think they will for coding purposes. No deliberate friendly fire for some factions annoys me. There are many tactical situations where I want to have my artillery attack an enemy. That unit of Greatswords is going to destroy that unit of Dwarven Miners, I should fire my cannons to eliminate them at the risk of my own men as those men are doomed anyway. I'm sure the miners would rather sacrifice themselves to win the battle (wait they already are) then to die for no puropse.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    The original poster is an example of someone who is also in conflict with my thoughts (only stating that we are of differing opinions, nothing more) as I love unpredictability, it often times forces you to think quickly or adjust your strategy. I would like to see wizards still have a chance to blow themselves up, to me, it adds in a strategic risk, do I cast the spell and risk losing that mage who I have leveled up or do I hold him in reserve? Do I base my strategy around my artillery that could fail/explose/break? Many of these rules are what makes Warhammer Fantasy Battle what it is and not just everyone else's fantasy game.

    These rules can also give some balance, such as miscasts, which helps to offset the power of spells and won't have you throwing magic around without regard. Another example is undead being unbreakable and cause fear but also having unstable and suffering from the Dead General Rule makes it important from a strategic perspective to be mindful of your generals and not lose them, or from the other sides perspect, to maybe risk more in an attempt to destroy the character. It adds lays to the gameplay for me. I won't always be using the same tactic as my tactical objectives will alter, those trolls went stupid, I can go wide and finish off that group of Black Orcs and then deal with them.

    Some rule do need to be removed though and I think they will for coding purposes. No deliberate friendly fire for some factions annoys me. There are many tactical situations where I want to have my artillery attack an enemy. That unit of Greatswords is going to destroy that unit of Dwarven Miners, I should fire my cannons to eliminate them at the risk of my own men as those men are doomed anyway. I'm sure the miners would rather sacrifice themselves to win the battle (wait they already are) then to die for no puropse.

    I hear your argument, epically some units have such thing in they "character" such as the “Hellblaster”. But Warhammer battles usually happen in a bubble, where only the battle itself matters. Long term "preserve the unit" thinking isn't needed.
    TW however has always the bigger picture in the background. I think it would be simply annoying to have your arty and Mages blow up (the later with a ton of experience perhaps?) miles away from you homeland, not because you did a mistake or the enemy was strong, but because of bad luck.
    Also keep in mind that the likeliness for misfire is ridiculous high in warhammer (1/6).
    Maybe it would balance itself out; since TW arty has usually 20-30 men and 12 are doing the reloading on the 4 “guns”, hence it wouldn’t be the whole unit that blows up, but only a part of it. For now I wouldn’t add it.

    For mages, I would make it a much more calculated risk (as I wrote). It is for me simply a decision for more RPG elements, which would it make stupid to regularly lose mages for casting the simplest spells. And for balancing: well normally you would have less “normal” soldiers per mage in Warhammer, than you would have in W:TW.*

    *Normal Warhammer 1-2 Mages of 60-80 figures, deepens of course.
    W:TW 1-4 Mages of ca. 2000 man, deepens of course also.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    SiWI wrote: »
    I hear your argument, epically some units have such thing in they "character" such as the “Hellblaster”. But Warhammer battles usually happen in a bubble, where only the battle itself matters. Long term "preserve the unit" thinking isn't needed.
    TW however has always the bigger picture in the background. I think it would be simply annoying to have your arty and Mages blow up (the later with a ton of experience perhaps?) miles away from you homeland, not because you did a mistake or the enemy was strong, but because of bad luck.
    Also keep in mind that the likeliness for misfire is ridiculous high in warhammer (1/6).
    Maybe it would balance itself out; since TW arty has usually 20-30 men and 12 are doing the reloading on the 4 “guns”, hence it wouldn’t be the whole unit that blows up, but only a part of it. For now I wouldn’t add it.

    For mages, I would make it a much more calculated risk (as I wrote). It is for me simply a decision for more RPG elements, which would it make stupid to regularly lose mages for casting the simplest spells. And for balancing: well normally you would have less “normal” soldiers per mage in Warhammer, than you would have in W:TW.*

    *Normal Warhammer 1-2 Mages of 60-80 figures, deepens of course.
    W:TW 1-4 Mages of ca. 2000 man, deepens of course also.

    A compromise and alteration to your idea would be that minor "buff/debuff" spells don't have the risk of miscast but damage causing spells have a chance with the risk increasing depending on how powerful the spell actually is.

    As for artillery exploding, I still think it should happen but it really should be rare. The artillery malfunctioning and requiring repair (delayed ability to attack) should be the most common thing to happen should that chance effect come up, but I think that it still should remain in.

    This of course is nothing more then my personal view and that is one of the reasons I didn't post earlier in response to you as I didn't want your thread to get derailed into a discussion between my personal views of what the game should be like verse yours. The discussion should really remain within the context of your post and if I want to discuss the merits of my view I should create another thread that does just that. Hopefully others will come in and discuss your post and the thread hasn't become derailed.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    This of course is nothing more then my personal view and that is one of the reasons I didn't post earlier in response to you as I didn't want your thread to get derailed into a discussion between my personal views of what the game should be like verse yours. The discussion should really remain within the context of your post and if I want to discuss the merits of my view I should create another thread that does just that. Hopefully others will come in and discuss your post and the thread hasn't become derailed.

    Or I welcome you suggestion, if not anything it gives me reason to explain my "decision" further. My dream however would be (besides that CA reading my post and go: "this is totally what we gonna do" *dreams don't have to be realistic) that other Warhammer player would description their faction in my schema. Characters for the army, 3 skill tree, one for campaign map, a short description of land units and fleet. How would the faction work in the inside(in-sense of having a "pope") ect.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKPosts: 3,882Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I just want all Armies playable + the other minor factions, including Araby, Tilea, Estalia. Game probably would be based on Storm of Chaos campaign just like mod for Med II.

    I'd like to see the same Culture system as Rome II + Religions from ATTILA

    Playable factions with Bretonnia culture
    bretonnia-map.jpg

    Empire factions
    520106Lempire3.jpg

    Each one of them would have even more unique units than Rome 2 or like in Shogun 2 each clan was better in something.

    Question is now how to balance everything, it's historical mix... kind of like Empire Earth game. Norsca based on Vikings with poor armor, Empire with superior gunpowder, Bretonnia with heavy armor and feudal army... then there is massive Orcs and fearless Undeads.
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I just want all Armies playable + the other minor factions, including Araby, Tilea, Estalia. Game probably would be based on Storm of Chaos campaign just like mod for Med II.

    Well I understand your viewpoint, but I don't think it would be realistic. If you do the faction as detail as I want (aka make the Empire a combination of 10 factions) and give as 3-4 of the sub-factions as choice (again: all would be nice), that would make 48-64 factions playable, assuming just you get all of the tabletop factions. Awesome of course, but probably too much work for CA.

    And even some of them are problematic. For the Woodelves I could not find a good reason, why they would wanna conquer land outside of they beloved forest or how they navy would work. Beastmen are too scatter and them defending province isn't fitting, also they are too scatter for a enjoyable faction (mostly not connected areas). The problem with the Navy strikes again.
    Orges don't strike me as a force who would conquer a empire either (they raid or serve as mercenaries).
    Lizardmen are a little too far away from the main action and hence could be too easy, since they don't have many enemy on they home continent (Amazons maybe?). Of course they should get attacks from chaos and dark elves or expeditions from the old world as visitors, but is that enough?
    Chaos Warriors and Daemons I would put together, since why not?

    Still with the "rest" and 3-4 sub-factions, we still would have 30-40 factions to play. That isn't too shabby.

    Balance wise I have little worry, because the Tabletop does it (to some extend) and TW has more possibilities to balance things out (cost/unit size ect.).

    I would prefer that the game is not base on Storm of Chaos (or the running undead one), but starts in a certain time (I suggest 2400) and let you play out for round about 200 years. Of course things like the Storm could happen as a script.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKPosts: 3,882Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Hmm true that. There is lots to discuss about the balance, factions... not all should be playable aye.. but the main armies with own strengths and weaknesses. The Empire can be one faction just like Rome II + 3/4 different ( Reikland, Stirland, Nordland) or Chaos like Carthage (Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch), Vampire Counts (von Carstein, Blood Dragon) one if each fighting own enemy, and starting at different location, with own unique set of units... just like again Nomadic factions in Rome 2.

    I'm still not sure how magic would work like in this game, buffs and debuffs are already in R2, General abilities etc. and offensive spell with longer cooldown... i guess we could apply targeting system like siege weapons in Shogun 2 with the circle thingy, it works good in Warhammer Mark of Chaos.
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Lizardmen have plenty of enemies, the Dark Elves raid their ruins and settlements for artifacts, Clan Pestilens (Skaven clan who live under that continent) attack their homes, Forest Gobins and Savage Orcs populate the jungles, Daemons of Chaos attack them and materialize when the Chaos moon raises, Beastmen raiding from the Jungles, and there is also the Vampire Coast in Lustria. They don't have it as easy as you seem to think. Boats are a problem for them as from what I understand they don't build them, they open portal to invade lands through instead.

    Why would the Lizardmen expand, they are fighting a war against chaos, if taking lands is needed to stop Chaos from expanding into the world then they will invade and hold those lands while killing all who have become tainted by chaos.

    Ogres destroyed and populated the area that was once ruled by Giants, they ate them all. Why would they expand, for new lands to devour, and new lands to procreate in. They invaded Cathay several times before the creation of the great maw which drove them more westward. Yes some hire themselves out as mercenaries but the majority of them don't, it is like saying that the entirety of Tilia hires themselves out as mercenaries do to the presence of their Dog of War units.

    The more we discuss this the more I'm coming to the conclusion that it needs to have a Linear story element like the Shadow of the Horned Rat, Dark Omen, and Mark of Chaos/Battle March, being what drives the story while the sandbox should be just that, a sandbox. The sandbox gives it replayability, should be limited on narrative as to not drive the story and people shouldn't be so concerned about, why this faction wouldn't expand as it should just be about writing your own story with the faction you like. Role play it if you want like many of us already do in Total War Sandbox games but don't discount groups to do this. More stories could even be added as DLCs for other factions as time goes on giving new content to play. Multiplayer should consist of match making battles, coop sandbox campaigns and maybe even a conquest like setup similar to what we found in the avatar system in Shogun 2. More focused campaigns along the lines of CiG and HaTG could be introduced that have more a story element added in.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    @englisharcher89
    I'm think we envision different things (which is totally cool) and i think you didn't read all of my text (don't blame you).
    The factions should dived them self in subfaction, which are exist on the Campaign map. So all of the 10 empire provinces exist on the map and they do act as factions, but are bond together and have a leader (which a the player can become).
    I would handle Chaos different than you: I would let you choose between one of the tribes and then let your characters choose which of the 4 (you forgot slaneesh) they follow, except they aim for undivided chaos. This would tied in with a relationship system between your faction and the 4 chaos gods. They will give you mission, ask things from you and of course can't stand each other (epscially Khorne - Slaneesh, Nurge - Tzeentch). It would work a little bit the same as in "Pharaoh"/"Zeus"/"Caesar 3".
    Getting the favour of one of the 4 gods, one of your chars can become its champion and you would get new options in gear/mutations/units.
    Magic (see Step 2, 4.) works either using it directly against/on unit, or using it the way you would use a AE in a RPG or DOTA. Depending on the spell you cast. I don't see here a problem with the aiming.



    @Erminaz
    Well I don't know too much about the Lirzardmen or the Orges in detail, but I was searching for potential problems with setting the factions up, as they are in TW. Also I was worried that, if everyone get sub factions, then it could be simply too much (I was about 30-40, including sub-factions, to play, after the reductions).
    I would like the factions be more complex, with the possibilities of fight in between the faction and the possibility to become the main leader of your faction (Emperor, Champion of all Chaos Gods, Highking ect.).
    I'm not 100% sure, what you mean when you talk about linear story elements. Do you mean like what we see in Attilia? Aka certain conditions make way for certain events? Or do you mean something more traditionally linear in terms of campaign. A smaller theatre of war?
    Because I would like to give your the Warhammer World (at least big parts of it) and say: Conquer it.

    In terms of Multiplayer I agree with you that a Aventar like mode would be fitting, specially since you have a skill system and support charters which you can also recruit and skill. Interesting would be to how to get to the gear. Simply buy it? Challenges? Achievement awards? Sacrificing white rabbits?
    When the subfaction are a thing, that playing coop as two imperial provinces should be possible and of course also VS campaigns.
    Even thou some faction could not make the cut (either because they don't fit or it becomes to many), it should always be possible to choose them for Multiplayer battles.

    A interesting Idea I had: perhaps you could let people put they armies online and let them be hire able as mercenaries in other people campaign (if they took the option), and perhaps let people earn additional gold, according how many people hired they units.

    Mercenaries also could be a topic for a bigger DLC, introducing all of the iconic companies with they leaders as special characters with unique skill tree/gear.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,345Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    The games (Shadow of the Horned Rat, Dark Omen, Mark of Chaos/Battle March) that I mentioned had linear stories as in they had no sandbox elements. The character who leads the forces progresses through a set story that doesn't change, the story progresses after dialog and you fight battles (in a similar fashion to what you find in total war where you don't build a base, and you only have units of men that you have). This, when done correctly, can give a detailed story but does not make for large amounts of re-playability.

    That is where the Sandbox game would come in. The sandbox, for the most part should be divorced of the story elements, the only lore driven part to me should be, the year you started and the basic setup for the condition of the faction you are play, now go forth into the world and do what you like. Roleplay as Karl Franz/Magnus/ect. (whoever is the emperor when the game is set [these are only examples I personally don't want everything centered on the Empire and the Empire to be the main and constant focus]) and drive back Chaos. Betray your Dwarf allies and take their holds for yourself. The way the game plays out should be entirely up to the player and the player should not be forced to make it play out as it would have in the story. Hell I would say changing religions would be important. Play the Elector Count of Ostremark and fall to Chaos, join forces with the Warriors of Chaos and destroy the rest of the Empire.

    So what I'm saying is that there should be two single player modes (and multiple multiplayer ones). A story set in stone or somewhat changeable though minor choices and the very important and repayable Sandbox. Hope this clears up my thoughts on it a bit.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I had some additional toughs of what you could do, but I'm a pit unsure what is the best policy to add them? For now I will make them in new post, but perhaps will add them to the main post(s) later.

    Normal gear:

    Warhammer Fantasy has a rather broader approach to different not magical weapons. It lacks different rules for one hand axes (except there are throwing axes) and one hand swords and the same for the two handed versions. I think you could go in greater detail for the character weapons.
    I think the difference between axe and sword could be, that the former could do more damage (maybe slower), while the later could raise your meele defence (I think it's fair to say, that you can better parry with a sword, than with a axe).
    Hammers could be similar to axes and do more damage while being slower.
    Maybe you should make differences between quality of the weapons (still speak of non magical) and add things like "sharp on both sides" or add things like rapier and sabres, with slightly different stats.
    Also the different armour types could influence exhaustion (something Warhammer doesn't care about). If your guys wear plate armour, he will get faster tired than in light armour ect.

    Main Factions:

    I touch on this before, but I think I should go in more detail in which faction would be a priority, compare to others, just like I did with the Empire subfactions. Now let's remind us who are the main factions:

    Bretonnia
    Empire
    High Elves
    Wood Elves
    Dark Elves
    Warriors of Chaos
    Demons of Chaos
    Beastmen
    Vampires
    Tomb kingdoms of Khemri
    Ogres
    Dwarves
    Orcs and Goblins
    Lizardmen
    Skaven

    If only 8 of those could themselves a ticket for being playable, I think those 8 would be:

    1 Empire of Sigma
    2 High Elves
    3 Chaos (Warriors and Daemons combine)
    4. Dwarves
    5. Orcs and Goblins
    6. Skaven
    7. Vampire
    8. Tomb Kingdoms of Khemri

    Now if we would talk about 10 or 12, I think we should talk about those:

    9. Dark elves
    10. Bretonia
    11. Wood Elves
    12. Lizzardmen

    The other would come after that. Now first I wanna remind you, that all of these would get subfactions (3 or 4), which are far more important than the choosing of them bonus from a family. Second let's talk why some faction landed on the lower ranks.

    9. Dark elves:
    I would love them to be in, but when given the choice between not having the skaven or the Khemri in, they lose. They lose because they are relative similar to the High Elves (which got to be playable in my mind), while skaven are very unique and unlike everyone else. The Khemri on the other hand, are somewhat close to the Vampires, but are a "neutral" faction and hence would give the player something out of the ordinary, something what doesn't operate in the thinking of the other factions.

    10. Bretonnia:
    Well they have a similar problem as the Dark Elves. A cousin which is more important than them: the Empire of Sigma. When in question, the Empire does represent the "humans" more and better than Bretonnia.
    They also have the Problem that GW did not give them a new army book for a decade. This means they have relative few units and really a one trick pony. The main choice will be what kind of knight you use, because besides knights, there is nothing they are good at. Infantry? A joke. Range/Arty? Oh please! Monster/creatures? Well you have pegasi knights...
    This would hunt them in sieges as well.
    I hope/suspects that Bretonnia get a new army book relative soon (1-2 years maybe?). If that happens you could deliver the "new" more shiner Bretonnia as DLC/Addon.

    11. Wood Elves:
    Well besides my "logic" issue with them and that we have two other elves faction, which I view more important, the real issue is a other: Navy.
    As far I know, there is no mention of wood elves having a navy what so ever. Doesn't surprise, if you think about it: they only care about the woods they are in and they life to protect the trees. What is the main martial for ships? Wood.
    Now you could assume that they use design similar to the High Elves or be very creative, but both of those option have risk: the first makes more similar to the High Elves and strips the High Elves a bit of uniqueness. The latter is problematic because of GW/Fluff, since is needs to be approve and still should make sense in the Warhammer world.
    I don't know enough about them, to judge how internal conflicts would work for them.

    12. lizzardmen:

    All mayor other powers are fairly away from them (including the things Erminaz mention), but what more damming is the fact that navy is a even bigger problem.
    No mention of a navy and whenever they do move they use portals. Creating a believable fitting navy is even harder here, because they are based on the Aztecs. Which had a lot of things, but a important navy wasn't one of them.
    Just let them use portals A has the problem that you would need portals on every Inland and B fells cheap. Not only do you take away "half" of the tactical gameplay away, but also it would be annoying as hell, if you play "not Lizzard" and they keep coming out of portals. So that is a problem.
    internal Conflicts? I only know they have disputes about the interpretation of certain text/the will of the old.

    13. Ogres:
    Well I didn't mention them, because for me they have pretty much the lowest priority for me personally. They don't have too much problems. I don't know how the "inner faction" would work for them for sure and they navy isn't flash out, but still thinkable since there are ogre pirates.

    14. Beastmen:

    Sorry, but outside of multiplayer, no. They would work well as rebel faction (spawning constant, trying to raid and plunder), but as "normal" faction? I don't think that would work. To scatter around the map, no navy, either so strong that it destroy every threat instance or too weak to survive.

    In terms of not "tabletop playable" faction, I think Kislev should be on the highest priority wise, after that Tilea and Estalia.
    I think however you could put them in a later DLC
    In a "Idle" world, I think I would go with the 10 main faction option (both Dark Elves and Bretonnia were safe) and perhaps add other either in DLC or give them extra campaigns design for them.

    Battle field creatures/special objects

    In TW the wildlife only exist for the graphics and has no real influence. In the Warhammer world, it could make sense to put wild creatures on the battle field, which you can try to avoid, to use or kill for experience.
    Those would work as third party mostly, attack who ever come near first, except that some creature could have a alliance with certain faction and tend to help them, if they fight near they nest, giving the defender of a territory a bit of edge. Overall it would be similar to "Empire at War".

    Special objects could be shrines of different types, magical woods, pretty much everything what the Warhammer rulebook know as "terrain" could be integrated. There should be dedication of the Word map, of what will be on the battle field (you see a Sphinx, you get a Sphinx).
    Also some characters could have special abilities interacting with terrain. Example: a Sigma priest could create a shrine, which gives boost for him and units around or he could simply "bless" a building or terrain type/area.
    This could be part of the defence stance.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • SmokeScreenSmokeScreen Senior Member Posts: 2,429Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    For those interested in Warhammer, here is the next game set in said universe. Mordheim

    http://store.steampowered.com/app/276810/
    "I just traded Finland's military to Kenya for 50 lions"

    The awesome World War 1 Thread
  • Deacon412Deacon412 Senior Member Posts: 806Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    while that will be good thank God CA doesn't make TBS games. heres to ca!
    LSD wrote: »
    Cash money is the general reason.
    The guy they're paying for advertising, whose degree came from a plastic bag he found behind a local supermarket (Tesco i think), told the Creative Assembly that "brands" are today's buzzword.
    Apparently Total War isn't a brand unless it's the title's prefix.
    Call of Duty is a brand. Look how much that sells.
    Nestlé is a brand. They make games right?
    Uh, let's see. Ralph Lauren? Audi? I could list them all. And i will...
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Well it looks like we will see CA vision of Total War: Warhammer ^^

    I gonna predict that we will see strong RPG elements (always been part of TW) and a Inventor system (Attilia seems to experiment with this).
    I'm a bit afraid that the magic system will rather simple instead as complex as it should be.
    As map I would Imaging a Mediaeval 2 map (equivalent of Europe and America and "Atlantis").
    I do think that it will be NOT "The end of Times", because that would be a stand-alone add-on in the same sense we see with "Attila" for "Rome 2".
    The Faction probably will be rather classic TW (hence not the system I imagine), I still think we can count on my top 10, 12 or maybe even 14 factions to be in.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • leafs43leafs43 Member Posts: 51Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    SiWI wrote: »
    Well it looks like we will see CA vision of Total War: Warhammer ^^

    I gonna predict that we will see strong RPG elements (always been part of TW) and a Inventor system (Attilia seems to experiment with this).
    I'm a bit afraid that the magic system will rather simple instead as complex as it should be.
    As map I would Imaging a Mediaeval 2 map (equivalent of Europe and America and "Atlantis").
    I do think that it will be NOT "The end of Times", because that would be a stand-alone add-on in the same sense we see with "Attila" for "Rome 2".
    The Faction probably will be rather classic TW (hence not the system I imagine), I still think we can count on my top 10, 12 or maybe even 14 factions to be in.


    Magic I think will be fine.

    If anyone played King Arthur-the roleplaying game, it handled magic pretty well. It was one of the few things it got right.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    leafs43 wrote: »
    Magic I think will be fine.

    If anyone played King Arthur-the roleplaying game, it handled magic pretty well. It was one of the few things it got right.

    Well I just think that it will be not as close to the magic system of the Tabletop game, which is pretty complex and makes for hard decisions, as it could be.
    Instead it could be just bush Button A, get a cool down.
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  • englisharcher89englisharcher89 Senior Member Bath, UKPosts: 3,882Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    We already have things that work like magic in Rome, war cry, second wind, inspire etc. So now only some offensive spells for Bright Wizard/ Chaos Sorcerer/ Necromancer any AoE spells could have a circle marker like Shogun II artillery marker, but you can use them only once or twice with long cooldown.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    We already have things that work like magic in Rome, war cry, second wind, inspire etc. So now only some offensive spells for Bright Wizard/ Chaos Sorcerer/ Necromancer any AoE spells could have a circle marker like Shogun II artillery marker, but you can use them only once or twice with long cooldown.

    or we could do this ;)
    4. Magic

    Now there are two ways, as I see it, that magic could be in cooperated into TW.
    The first would be to simply make it “button mashing”. That however would be a terrible way to represent magic of the Warhammer world.
    Let’s talk shortly how magic works in the Tabletop: the player, who has the turn, throws two dices, the number of energy dices he has to cast spells. The other side gets only the highest number of the two to ban.
    Now the player who can cast magic must make the choice: to I take a lot energy to make my most important spells first, or do I bait the other site with smaller spells on which I hope he/she waste the ban dices, even it could be that the spells fail and hence he actually saves ban energy.
    The other side must equally think about, if it is really worth trying to ban the spell or should I save my energy, in case the other side has a more dangerous spell in reserve.
    Also both sides must consider the equipment they bought for the magic phase.

    In order to simulate this in a TW, I would like to see the following: base of the units/chars used in an army, gear and how the winds of magic blow (a new additional weather condition), every army fills two energy bars. One to cast magic, the other to ban it (even Army with no mages at all can try to ban, but it is hard).
    Now when someone wants to cast a spell he must use some of his energy pool to start casting the spell. If he succeeds to cast the spell (the more energy involves, in relationship of the spell cost, the more like is the success), the other side gets a chance to use they pool of magic defense to ban it, so more energy they use so more likely is the success to ban it. The energy bars should refill itself relative slow, so once to use all to should have to wait ca. 5 minute till it is full again. You know how much energy the enemy has left.
    Now the question is how to make this work without to be too stressful. My solution would be like this: all spells need about 10-15 second to get cast. This should give enough time to order a possible ban.
    All available spells should be shown in the left corner. The minute you move the mouse courser over it, it should show you a description, cast on different level (most spell have two, some three power level you could try to cast them) and also the mage himself should be shown so you can see where he is, with a radius where he could cast the spell.
    Since you can’t cast too many spells normally, it should be too stressful after some initial magical burst.
    How likely spell can be cast or ban depends on skill of the caster, gear and a little bit of luck.

    Speaking of luck, there is one thing I would not integrate into a TW:W and that is “control lost”. Using magic is a dangerous thing in the Warhammer world and very time a mage use a spell, there is a chance to “loose control” which can have various unpleasant effects, most of them including the mage and many members of his units, dying.
    Now since it would be annoying to lose an important Mage casting a minor spell in a small skirmish during a cast, I would do not let normal cast have “loose control”. But I would gave every spell a hyper form, which cost a lot of energy and has the additional danger of blowing the mage up, but is impossible to ban.
    In order to avoid silly AI to always burst into hyper kamikaze mode, they should be hardcoded to only use it, if they defending their last or capital city/castle or really desperate battles. The player him/herself should be careful enough since losing the mage chars should be punishment enough.*
    Alternative the already existing 2nd more powerful form could be the one which can trigger "loose control" while the normal doesn't (no 3th "hyper" form).

    * I like to add that there is a very cynical approach to this whole thing in the Tabletop. You take one poor lvl 1 mage, put him in some cheap close combat unit and then let him cast something in the hope that he blows up and takes enemy elite soldiers with him.
    In TW:W this should be discourage by the fact that you would have to rehire him for money.

    Now when it comes to the spells, I think all of them can be taken from the tabletop. We have 8 different lore’s of magic, each has 7 spells (one is the basic spell), and also many races and some units get some unique spells only they have access.

    All spell can be categorize as one of three things: damage, bless and curse.
    Those get split by the fact that each category can either apply to a whole unit or single chars and some of the blessing are only for the caster himself. Some of the damage is place on areas, with some inaccuracy.
    Most spell can be cast more powerful which sometimes make them stronger, but usually only increase the range, with the hyper form, almost every spell has 3 different forms (some 4, some only one).

    It would be nice if the spell made context sensitive, meaning using an air/heaven mage in a naval fight (char should join fleets too), you should be able to boost the sails of you ships with him or that some spells better work in forest.

    Let’s talk about the 8 mayor mage lore’s in general terms:

    1. Fire:
    Describe as magic artillery, it gives a bonus of using more damage spells on the same unit. It has decent blessings as well a curse. Most of its damage is rather unit as char wise.

    2. Beast
    Good to use on monster, cavalry and beast. Most of its spells are here to boost single chars. Does have also some damage spells and most impressive the ability to transform the mage in something different.

    3. Metal
    Damage is base on the armor of the enemy. If the enemy is heavy armor, these spells will be more devastating. Damage spells it has quite a lot, but also a good addition of blessings and curses.

    4. Light
    Very good damage against undead or chaotic, main purpose however is to bless your own units.

    5. Live
    Ha ha stay alive, stay alive HA HA HA STAY AAAAAAAAALIVEEE! Sorry I couldn’t resist. You may guess it, this is the best in blessing your units and keeping them alive (even retrieve them from the dead), but has one powerful damage spell as well.

    6. Heaven
    Your anti air magic, no blessing but curse and A LOT of damage.

    7. Shadows
    Allows to change places with other chars (when the same type, aka infantry or cavalry ect.). It has many cures, but also a lot of damage and only one blessing.

    8. Death
    Gains energy through dead enemies. Little surprise it got a lot of damage, only one blessing but more curses.

    How many and which of these 8 you got, depends on the faction you play.

    For those who play Warhammer: I didn’t describe some aspects of spells, because without further description of how exactly they work I don’t think it would be useful
    But I may revisit this part and add certain aspects like “stays in the game” or what can be casted under what condition, if requested. But for now I think that this gives enough of a first view.
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  • BosseruperBosseruper Member Posts: 68Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    ill be honest with you guys, but i'm not looking forward to this. I have always loved total war for the history, accurate or not, and i'm kinda disappointed that they are moving away from history and going to fantasy. Granted i love fantasy and i think a LOTR total war would be awesome, but i have never found a big interest in war hammer so id rather they make it like an official mod for Attila or something, similar to counter-strike and half-life or unofficial like the third age mod for Rome 1, and instead, make another historical time period, maybe explore WWI, i'm not sure how but i think that they should stick to history.
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  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Posts: 9,305Registered Users
    edited January 2015
    Bosseruper wrote: »
    ill be honest with you guys, but i'm not looking forward to this. I have always loved total war for the history, accurate or not, and i'm kinda disappointed that they are moving away from history and going to fantasy. Granted i love fantasy and i think a LOTR total war would be awesome, but i have never found a big interest in war hammer so id rather they make it like an official mod for Attila or something, similar to counter-strike and half-life or unofficial like the third age mod for Rome 1, and instead, make another historical time period, maybe explore WWI, i'm not sure how but i think that they should stick to history.

    While I disagree with Warhammer being a bad Idea, don't worry I'm sure that after Wh: TW get its Attila style addon, they will continued with a historical setting. (If I would be them, I would pick either Empire 2 or "Victoria")
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  • VudogaVudoga Member Posts: 35Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    I like most of your ideas, but I think the magic thing might be a bit too much. Don't forget, the magic ban thing might be cool but I suspect that's more micro then they want to put in. I'm guessing they'll take the Battle March approach with spell cooldowns and a mana bar. I really don't think they'll put any 'random' elements into the system since, while it can be fun in some games, in a game like Total War, having my stuff blowup because lady luck hates my *** would be more frustrating than fun. In tabletop sure, in RTS? Nope. However, having agents replaced by characters that can actually fight in the battle would be great. You'd have 20 units, and then one slot for a general and several other slots for characters. That'd be an awesome new feature.
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