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Lol found another little Paradox dig at Rome II

Buttons the KittenButtons the Kitten Senior MemberPosts: 199Registered Users
edited November 2014 in The Graveyard
For those who remember, a few years ago Paradox and CA reps had a little public spat over at paradox's forums and the two dev teams lovingly fell out a tiny bit.

I was just having an in-depth look at Paradox's new project HOI4 and I found this picture in their dev diaries.

attachment.php?attachmentid=113009&d=1407508757

Reliability :0 Engine :0

Nice one Paradox :D

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?794277-Hearts-of-Iron-IV-Developer-Diary-8-Experience-and-Variants
Post edited by Buttons the Kitten on
«1

Comments

  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Haha that's pretty funny! At least the Rome II vessel can flaunt with its superior deckspace. :D
    The best is yet to come
  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Childish jabs, inb4 it starts a war.
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • ostrogothostrogoth Senior Member Posts: 481Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I think they hinted about Europa Universalis: Rome 2. Some sort of tease by them.
  • NOOBZNOOBZ Junior Member Posts: 13Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    what is Paradox
  • Shiningpotato16Shiningpotato16 Senior Member Posts: 569Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    NOOBZ wrote: »
    what is Paradox

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=paradox
    If the water is up to your neck: chin up
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,177Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    NOOBZ wrote: »
    what is Paradox

    Paradox is a publisher that likes to brutally **** out small developers and crush/abandon them at a whim.
  • scott1000scott1000 Senior Member Posts: 152Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Paradox = Huge 3d battles -5 lol
  • eXistenZ2eXistenZ2 Senior Member Posts: 579Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    NOOBZ wrote: »
    what is Paradox

    A company that brings out games of €40, and then throws in half of the mechanics in €100 dlc's
  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    A company that brings out games of €40, and then throws in half of the mechanics in €100 dlc's

    That's simply not true. Even when they do sell new mechanics in DLCs, most of the changes included in the accompanying patch are for free. The new mechanics are there to flesh out already well-designed games with features in plenty, as opposed to Rome II where there's virtually never any DLCs that include new mechanics or features but only locked parts of the game.
    The best is yet to come
  • LestaTLestaT Senior Member Posts: 3,284Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    That's simply not true. Even when they do sell new mechanics in DLCs, most of the changes included in the accompanying patch are for free. The new mechanics are there to flesh out already well-designed games with features in plenty, as opposed to Rome II where there's virtually never any DLCs that include new mechanics or features but only locked parts of the game.

    What new features ? Songs and sprites DLCs ?
  • eXistenZ2eXistenZ2 Senior Member Posts: 579Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    That's simply not true. Even when they do sell new mechanics in DLCs, most of the changes included in the accompanying patch are for free. The new mechanics are there to flesh out already well-designed games with features in plenty, as opposed to Rome II where there's virtually never any DLCs that include new mechanics or features but only locked parts of the game.

    If it was so well designed, they didnt need to change the mechanics in the first place perhaps?

    And while i really like CK2, I just cant recommend it as just the base game. you will need €30 of dlc on it, and thats with all the customization not calculated in.
  • walterkanewalterkane Senior Member Posts: 449Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    People that get mad at CAs dlc model should at least be appreciative that its not paradoxes.

    Also, look at the graphics on this insane CK2 battle, truly next gen stuff.

    Fight.jpg
  • MatmannenMatmannen Senior Member Posts: 1,235Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    walterkane wrote: »
    People that get mad at CAs dlc model should at least be appreciative that its not paradoxes.

    Also, look at the graphics on this insane CK2 battle, truly next gen stuff.

    Fight.jpg

    You don't get the point of Paradox games...
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenPosts: 18,444Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    What battle? :confused:
    Don't worry.
  • QuigleyerQuigleyer Senior Member Posts: 1,339Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    That's simply not true. Even when they do sell new mechanics in DLCs, most of the changes included in the accompanying patch are for free. The new mechanics are there to flesh out already well-designed games with features in plenty, as opposed to Rome II where there's virtually never any DLCs that include new mechanics or features but only locked parts of the game.

    ^agreeing

    Haha, I was looking at buying a CK 2 copy for my steam after losing my old copy a while back. I can buy the game for $40 (I was eventually gifted it from Humble Bundle, yay) or I can buy the game and all DLCs for $165 (and that's with price cuts). I mean it's not that they're selling you the mechanics, they're selling you extra unit portraits, music, and little unit models/icons to enhance your play with certain cultures.

    The ones that add extra mechanics add quite a bit of flavor to the game (The Old Gods, Charlemagne, Rajas of India, the Republic one, and the HRE one) and are $15 as expansions. They are full blown expansions that allow you to play with extended mechanics from what was found in the base game. It is VERY different to play as the Norse in the Old Gods, etc. I feel like Rome 2... is all the exact same. Any culture you play you will play exactly the same, minus some army compositions (but those will be basically the same as well).

    They sell a TON of micro transaction DLC, but most of it is unimportant. If you're starting a game as a Celtic family you can go buy the Celtic pack and unit portraits for like $3, two new culturally significant music tracks for $2 before starting your game if you want to. None of this stuff should have been included in the base game, save for the EU IV converter and Ruler Editor, IMO. Basically they're doing all they can to enhance your experience after the game was released, and I do believe their microtransactions are fairly priced for their time and expenses in creating the products.

    You're not paying $7.99 for 3 new units, let's just say that.

    But if you guys are tired of late-game ROFL-stomping the AI in Rome 2 grab a copy of CK2 and start playing it. The whole game is playing as a member of a family in the medieval ages (and before and beyond, with expansions). You lose quite a bit, there's always a bigger fish, and you'll often-times lose your Kingdom and be knocked down to a lowly count, where you have a lot of extra time to plot the overthrow of your usurper by participating in intrigue and getting really friendly with your fellow vassals.
  • walterkanewalterkane Senior Member Posts: 449Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Matmannen wrote: »
    You don't get the point of Paradox games...

    Yes I do, I've played and enjoyed their games before. My point is that its kind of childish for them to insult CA's games when they don't even try to render real time playable battles.

    I admit that Paradoxes campaign features are usually always better than CA, but CA has to also create/optimize/balance/code ai for real time field battles, sieges, and sea battles. CA essentially is making 2 games with every release while paradox is making one.
    Setrus wrote: »
    What battle? :confused:

    exactly
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,229Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I don't get it, a ship called ROme II? Does it like cruise onto land or make fish gobble mouths or spotlight when in nght battles?
    Itharus wrote: »
    Paradox is a publisher that likes to brutally **** out small developers and crush/abandon them at a whim.

    I think you're mistaking them for EA.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    LestaT wrote: »
    What new features ? Songs and sprites DLCs ?

    Did you take a look at the Art of War DLC, for one?
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    If it was so well designed, they didnt need to change the mechanics in the first place perhaps?

    And while i really like CK2, I just cant recommend it as just the base game. you will need €30 of dlc on it, and thats with all the customization not calculated in.

    The features they implemented with DLCs like Art of War for EU4 were made probably a year after the release of the game. You don't need DLCs to enjoy their games, but some of them do a great job at either adding flavor (like new soundtracks) or adding new mechanics that serve very practical - read, not essential - purposes. Unless you count Rome II's Blood and Gore DLC as "new features" (that DLC would be on par with new unit model DLCs for Paradox games basically), Rome II has no DLCs improving upon the base game by providing new useful features.

    That is not to say that I would like to see CA selling feature components of the game - I get the feeling they would strip them out prior to release and then release them as "new" content after, instead of bothering to be creative post release. I do think it's reasonable to charge customers for that type of content given that it was created after release, especially if it follows a model like Paradox where most features in new patches are free of charge anyway. In Rome II and to some extent the whole Total War series, it's mostly been a matter of patching broken mechanics without adding any really new content to the games. Well, unless we're talking new campaign DLCs which almost exclusively are built upon the exact same features...
    The best is yet to come
  • QuigleyerQuigleyer Senior Member Posts: 1,339Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    LestaT wrote: »
    What new features ? Songs and sprites DLCs ?

    CK 2's The Old Gods adds nearly 200 years to the original game. It also adds new mechanics to playing as the Norse. For example you don't need a cassius belli to declare war on someone not of your religion (only time this is possible), and you begin losing vassal support if you go a certain amount of time without a war. When you are at war with someone without a cassius belli you can besiege their settlements like you normally can, but instead of occupying the territory to count towards your war score for war victory you gain currency, which you can then load up on your ships to take back home, or go get some more before heading back home. Once you return to one of your home ports the funds are transferred into your treasury.

    So they essentially added going on viking to the Norse religions. This also comes with it a very problematic succession law (Gavelkind) which constantly divides your territory between heirs when the ruler dies, which means you also have a lot of domestic wars and bloody fights for power. Lots of your sons wind up killing each other to try and get a bigger slice of the cut. If your sons are granted land they will openly war with each other, granted your crown authority is low enough to allow vassal fighting.

    Then there's music, portrait packs, and unit packs to spice it up even further, if that's your kind of thing. Personally I think the music pack is essential for the Norse, pretty banging war music.

    In Swords of Islam they added a whole new Decadence system to the game. Every new version of the game comes with brand new mechanics to make it feel like you're playing a similar game about a different culture with different culture mechanics.

    In Rome 2 you play the Romans like you play the Suebi like you play Carthage, only units and army composition change. Even the politics is exactly the same. EVEN THE ADVISORS are exactly the same. Culture is a percentage and a symbol, it's not at all driving how you play the game.
  • MrOuijaMrOuija Senior Member Posts: 698Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    walterkane wrote: »
    Yes I do, I've played and enjoyed their games before. My point is that its kind of childish for them to insult CA's games when they don't even try to render real time playable battles.

    I admit that Paradoxes campaign features are usually always better than CA, but CA has to also create/optimize/balance/code ai for real time field battles, sieges, and sea battles. CA essentially is making 2 games with every release while paradox is making one.



    exactly

    And not only that, but each "new" Paradox game comes out with 10 year old graphics. You don't even have to do real time battles, but at least attempt to make your game look like you're improving it. Since EU2 it seems like they've just tacked on mechanics to the same bland engine.
  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Quigleyer wrote: »
    In Rome 2 you play the Romans like you play the Suebi like you play Carthage, only units and army composition change. Even the politics is exactly the same. EVEN THE ADVISORS are exactly the same.

    The units are technically the same too, the only difference is in the appearance and slightly different combat statistics, but all rosters include pretty much the same type of units with identical features (artillery for everyone and javelins for virtually all sword infantry, to name a few things). It's bland, to put it lightly. There could easily have been a lot of variety given the exciting setting, but CA seemingly lost much of their creativity.
    The best is yet to come
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    i don't get why there needs to be a war, total war was always build on 3D battles with a campaign strap on.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • eXistenZ2eXistenZ2 Senior Member Posts: 579Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Did you take a look at the Art of War DLC, for one?

    *snip*

    So basicly, they make the game more enjoyable and practical if you pay for the dlc.... And they do drasticly change the mechanics of the game. Any strategy guide that was made in 2013-early 2014 has absolutly no validity anymore, because of the many changes. I could live with the latter if its an improvement (which it in general is, if it doesnt open up a whole can of new bugs), but it isnt done to enhance your experience, but for mp games. Which is strange since 80% play exclusivly singleplayer. Anderson said this:

    "I don't give a **** about the AI in this issue.. Its a matter of problem for the players vs players.."
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2awrx1/johan_andersson_of_paradox_interactive_responds/

    (Also pointing out that CA at least never swore at his customers, and they got quite some abuse)

    And what is the difference between unlocking Pergamum or Colchis and unlocking muslims as playable factions? very little.
  • QuigleyerQuigleyer Senior Member Posts: 1,339Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    .... And they do drasticly change the mechanics of the game. Any strategy guide that was made in 2013-early 2014 has absolutly no validity anymore, because of the many changes. I could live with the latter if its an improvement (which it in general is, if it doesnt open up a whole can of new bugs), but it isnt done to enhance your experience, but for mp games. Which is strange since 80% play exclusivly singleplayer. Anderson said this:

    "I don't give a **** about the AI in this issue.. Its a matter of problem for the players vs players.."
    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2awrx1/johan_andersson_of_paradox_interactive_responds/

    (Also pointing out that CA at least never swore at his customers, and they got quite some abuse)

    And what is the difference between unlocking Pergamum or Colchis and unlocking muslims as playable factions? very little.

    Hah, but that's what Rome 2 did, just by fixing up the game they released. What about that new culture system? What about the huge unit re-balancing? New siege AI? The seasons? Formation attack? Fire at will with melee? Do these not count because they were added in to a game that was hastily released? Even though I doubt strategy guides are a large factor developers think about when messing with mechanics- no strategy guide that worked at the beginning of this game is going to work now. I bet you'd get a lot of strategies on how to defend your flag when you're caught in forced march... but it doesn't work like that anymore.

    This is not how DLC works in Paradox games though- you're mistaken. It only makes it so you can play differently with different cultures. Everything is still fairly viable within a strategy guide for CK 2 (some minor differences to nerf North Korea mode, etc.). You can still load up good ol' Count Murchad of Munster and play in a very similar manner to that of which you did at release. DLC like these are expansions, and believe it or not they actually expand on the game.

    Pergamon and Colchis will add a few units to the game, you'll play the same. If you get Swords of Islam for CK 2 you get the decadence system for when you play members of that culture: http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Decadence . You'll play a little differently with a new culture, but be playing the same game.

    So HUGE difference. One comes with game mechanics and fleshing out, one is a couple of units and unlocked play-ability. But I don't think this is a fair question, as the CK II expansion does cost more. A better comparison would be of like-priced things, like CiG and Swords of Islam. IMO CiG is way worth the money here, and I think it's an actual game expansion- even if it is the same old, same old on some different map.
  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    So basicly, they make the game more enjoyable and practical if you pay for the dlc.... And they do drasticly change the mechanics of the game. Any strategy guide that was made in 2013-early 2014 has absolutly no validity anymore, because of the many changes. I could live with the latter if its an improvement (which it in general is, if it doesnt open up a whole can of new bugs), but it isnt done to enhance your experience, but for mp games. Which is strange since 80% play exclusivly singleplayer. Anderson said this:

    "I don't give a **** about the AI in this issue.. Its a matter of problem for the players vs players.."

    (just to point out that CA at least never swore at his customers)

    The mechanics are "drastically" (your words, not mine) changed with the patches, not the DLCs like Art of War, Old Gods etc. Said DLCs introduce entirely new mechanics, they don't just focus on changing existing ones. Do make a distinction, because there is a difference.

    To clarify my position on patches that changes mechanics, I welcome them as long as they are for the better. Rome II has received a lot of patches just like EU4 for example, but the major difference is that EU4 patches have both improved and added new mechanics or features for free, whereas Rome II patches have almost only patched together the broken game that it was on release, while barely adding any new relevant or game-changing content.
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    And what is the difference between unlocking Pergamum or Colchis and unlocking muslims as playable factions? very little.

    I never claimed there was. Frankly, I don't think there is a difference, but that's not the type of new mechanics we're talking about, that's locked content.
    The best is yet to come
  • PlanetMarsupialPlanetMarsupial Senior Member Posts: 1,601Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »

    And what is the difference between unlocking Pergamum or Colchis and unlocking muslims as playable factions? very little.

    Well actually...

    The Swords of Islam DLC for Crusader Kings II added substantially to the game in terms of mechanics and overall game play for those who chose to get it. For the most part it was a pretty unique experience.

    By contrast, the Pergamon and Colchis DLC adds virtually nothing to the game minus a few new textures and a different starting position (both things which can and indeed have been achieved by modders months and months ago).

    That being said, even though one could argue that the Black Sea Colonies DLC is balanced for the vanilla game and opens up those factions for multiplayer, the thing that is truly irritating is the fact that it locks those factions for those who do not buy it. In other words this means that for modders and their subscribers who have been using those factions for months they are now being forced to pay for something which they had for free.

    CK II DLC does not do this. If I made a CK II mod which starts in say 450 AD, I wouldn't lose it just because Paradox decide that they are going to release a DLC which coincides with the period.

    In my opinion CA's DLC is awful by comparison to what it could be. Instead of adding substantial content to the game, they simply try and milk the game for as much as they can whilst putting in as little effort as they possibly can.
  • DuckyDuck[NL]DuckyDuck[NL] Senior Member Posts: 1,114Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    A company that brings out games of €40, and then throws in half of the mechanics in €100 dlc's

    Well atleast they add new mechanics to there game while CA said they are going to release Unit packs Faction packs and new features DLCs all i have seen is unit packs and faction packs that add copy/past units but new features DLCs NOPE nothing Yes they made EE big that is not what they promised in there reviews before release.

    And i would pay for DLCs that add new features and mechanics to a game that is stripped for the younger class to make it easy while i see in threads that the most player are older then 25+ so they can also make DLCs to make the game more how older TWs are. And not the arcade style it is now.
  • eXistenZ2eXistenZ2 Senior Member Posts: 579Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    My point is that Paradox games arent that well finished either at release, given the huge amounts of patching and mechanic changing both CK2 and Eu4 have received. (there is also some complaint about that on their forums). And sorry, just because they release some free content along with patches, (although the line between patching and free content becomes very thin) that doesnt negate that quite some content and mechanics remain locked away with dlc. Since we are talking about Art of War, this is the list:
    - It's now possible to declare a "support rebels"-war against a country that you're supporting rebels in.
    - It's now possible to set an allied in war to prioritise sieging a specific province.
    - It's now possible to set the military focus for your subjects to be Aggressive, Supportive or None, which changes what tactics they will use during war.
    - You can now mothball fleets, which means they will cost less maintainance, but slowly detoriate in the port.
    - You can now designate your vassal into a march They will no longer pay tax to you and you can't annex them, but they will get bonuses in warfare.
    - It's now possible to use your subjects CB/Wargoals when declaring a war.
    - Units with names edited by player are now tagged as custom-named, and will take priority when merging.
    - Added Client States mechanics, where you can now create new custom vassals, decide their name, flag & color, and assign them territory as soon as you reach a certain tech level.
    - You can now sell ships to other nations.
    - It is now possible to transfer control of a province to someone you are allied with in a war.
    - Added peace option "Give up claims" that forces the enemy to give up all their claims on you.
    - Added peace option "War Reparations" that forces the enemy to pay a fraction of their income to you each month for 10 years.
    - Added the possibility to upgrade fleets in one click if you can afford it.
    - Garrisons can now sortie from their fortress against a besieging force.
    - Added the option to abandon your foreign cores for a one-time prestige cost.
    - Added abandon idea group functionality, where you can change your countries setup for the future.
    - You can now toggle your fleets to let your allies & subjects load armies on them.
    - The Holy Roman Empire now have a mechanics for internal religious wars, including leagues for Catholics and Protestants that fight over the faith of the Empire.
    - Implemented a new Unit Builder, where you can build entire new armies or fleets in one click.
    - Over 25 flavor events for playing in West Africa.
    - 50 events related to the Thirty Years War.

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?2032-1.8-Patchnotes-Paid-Free-New-Features

    Quite a lot are very influential in how the game is played. And that is only one dlc

    Im not bashing Paradox, im just pointing out that neither CA or them is perfect, and that they are equally on the dlc train as any other game company. And in my opinion even a bit more, since too many gameplay features come as dlc.
  • PlanetMarsupialPlanetMarsupial Senior Member Posts: 1,601Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »

    Im not bashing Paradox, im just pointing out that neither CA or them is perfect, and that they are equally on the dlc train as any other game company. And in my opinion even a bit more, since too many gameplay features come as dlc.

    It is certainly true that both are on the DLC train, but the difference in my opinion is that Paradox's DLC actually adds substantially to the game, and if you don't think so then you have no reason to get it. By constrast, Rome II's DLC is boring, uninspired, over-priced and ultimately just comes across as a cheap attempt to squeeze money out of the game. Now all of that would be fine if I weren't forced to get it or lose the ability to play factions which I've been able to play for months.

    Of course non of this is to mention that this is just adding salt into the Day One DLC rubbish that CA pushed on its eager fan base a little over a year ago. Either pre-order our game or you have to pay extra to get core factions...sounds great.
  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Posts: 2,036Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Again you fail to make a distinction between reworked/tweaked existing game mechanics, and entirely new mechanics that are implemented after release in the shape of a DLC. You are right on one thing though, they do change how the game is played (that's kind of the point of them anyway, offering a different way of playing it).
    eXistenZ2 wrote: »
    And sorry, just because they release some free content along with patches, (although the line between patching and free content becomes very thin) that doesnt negate that quite some content and mechanics remain locked away with dlc.

    Are you implying that all post-release content they create should be free?

    Rome II DLCs are, as pointed out so many times now, lacking in the feature side of things. Yes, they do add units and they do unlock factions. The factions are basically locked content that you receive but can't use when first buying the game, and as mentioned by some others few faction packs introduce many if any new units (which again are so easy to add). And yes, there are Rome II DLCs that offer a "new" campaign setting, but with little to no new features at all that change the way the game is played - and this not to mention that all campaign DLCs so far have only magnified a part of the timeline that the grand campaign already offers.

    To sum that up, there is a major difference between DLCs for Paradox and TW games. Paradox goes one step further and offers new game mechanics both as exclusive DLCs but also in some of the "locked content" ones we've talked about, while CA pretty much exclusively only offers locked content or expensive campaign DLCs with no significant changes at all over the main game.
    The best is yet to come
This discussion has been closed.