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Diplomacy Guide.

Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior MemberPosts: 453Registered Users
edited April 2011 in Total War: Shogun 2
This is diplomacy guide for those who don't know how diplomacy really works or who wants to learn something more than they already know. I'll describe here what true politician should do according to Sun Tzu to win his battles.

The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

Take heed and bear witness to the truths that lie herein. Don't let yourself be defeated on the field of battle to the point when you'll be forced to accept another clan's protection as its vassal. The most important thing to remember is that vassal clans (like Tokugawa in the begining) can't declare wars on their own. They can declare war only against enemies of their masters. Your hands are pretty much tied if you don't have common enemy then. You also can't ally with anyone although you still can trade. Additionaly you'll lose money as tribute to your lord.

For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

You won't believe me but peace is all. Peace with the clans let you wage war against those who will wage war against you. To achieve this goal you'll need how to convice you enemy not to attack. As an example; you battle against an enemy clan who did declare war on you and at the same time you have message that another clan, very powerful, on the other side of your domain wishes to attack you. Prevent this from happening in the first place. It's always cheaper to buy peace than loan swords and bows to win peace. Offer money (pay at once or in tribute), hostages, marriage, trade) and try to make millitary alliance with this mighty clan. Once you do that they should be your valueable allies rather than fearsome foes.

He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.

Question is: when is it the right time to strike and when not to? Check out your neighbours and their allegiances. Daimyo's honor dictates that he must go to war on side of his ally, who has been attacked or lose honor. Stay your hand. Let yourself be attacked because by doing so you'll deny your foe ability to call his allies for help significantly. It's always easier to beat one foe than coalition of them. If you have to attack then find the clan who has no friends nor allies and is weaker than you or have different religion. Also be sure to have many supporters for your cause to make the enemy weaker because they'll have to fight more enemies on multiple fronts.

He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious.

Take your time. Wait in shadows. Observe. Then strike. Let your neigbours to wage war against themselves and decide for yourself when to draw your sword and to whose side. Pick up your battles rather than let yourself be led to fight them that way you will suffer no defeat.

There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.

Don't war more than you need. If there is a possibility to cease figthing when having wars on multiple fronts do it and use your spared army to break the might of another clan. Don't throw lives of your subjects recklessly beating down already beaten opponent but secure peace and move on to another threat. You also need to remeber that seizing multiple provinces too fast gives you diplomatic penalty so better avoid conquering everyone as fast as possible, especially in situations like that.

Secret operations are essential in war; upon them the army relies to make its every move.

Use agents like ninja to sabotage armies. The less they do move the more time you have to prepare your defences or ambush them and the more inactive they are the better off you are always, it's like destroying an entire army for one turn. Destroy farms to make sure they'll have to keep their armies in cities and thus dening their strenght. Convert the populace with monks, convert agents so they can't work against you, make cities rebeling to make their armies occupied. Also bribe medium armies with your metsuke: people who join your side and abandon their lord at the same time are double gain, because he did lose troops and you bought fast troops. Remember that any unsuccesful or failed attempts of your agents will reflect negative in your diplomatic relations. Always have spare money for agents to do their job.

In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good.

Don't loot cities. You'll get some money of this but after that you'll need to keep strong garrison here thus making most of your army unmobile. It's almost like lost of an army. Other than that looting damages daimyo's honor which can reflect your diplomatic relations.

Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

Maintain good standing with most powerful clan all the time by marriages, military alliances, attacking common foes and giving the gold from time to time if you're rich enough. Also don't wage war on clans that are too far away - except if you want to land on their beaches and set up another base of operation from there - because integrity of your land will make your provinces easier to defend with less forces required.

Only when these rules will fall, because your enemy believe you to be weak, go to war. If you'll follow these simple rules you'd be able to succed both in diplomacy and war.
"I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

"Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
Post edited by Holy.Death on

Comments

  • Moocow2020Moocow2020 Senior Member Posts: 105Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    So what you are trying to say is.... to be successful in diplomacy, no blitzkrieg tactics huh? Somehow I think it'd be cheaper to blitzkrieg then bribe people into alliances and trade agreements afterwards... at least you'd be getting a lot more revenue. Then again, I suppose my games aren't centered on diplomacy.
  • MolaconMolacon Junior Member Posts: 26Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Nice guide, Holy.Death. I prefer diplomacy and measured growth, so it's good to see some ideas on successful use of diplomacy.
  • Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior Member Posts: 453Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Moocow2020 wrote:
    So what you are trying to say is.... to be successful in diplomacy, no blitzkrieg tactics huh? Somehow I think it'd be cheaper to blitzkrieg then bribe people into alliances and trade agreements afterwards... at least you'd be getting a lot more revenue. Then again, I suppose my games aren't centered on diplomacy.
    I will point out a few things to make sure what this guide is for. It's NOT designed to:
    - Win the game as quick as possible.
    - Win the game on hardest game level available (I play on hard because I am happy on such level).
    - Win the game effectively or in cheap way (and I mean in terms of cost to effect).

    I did read some topics about beating legendary as Oda in 8 years. If you want to use "war feeds war" motto then this guide isn't much help. I agree, there ARE much "better" (more efficient and cheaper, in terms of cost to effect) ways to win the game but this guide isn't centred around winning quickly but to use diplomacy as succesful tool in your conquest of Japan. Some people wants to win game fast and I am fine with that, there are though other people who simply can't or don't even think about using diplomacy right way (well "right" is subjective term) and I am here to show them the way.

    I'll give an example as any man should: I was at war with the Asai clan who wanted to destroy me. After I seized their capitol at Omi - and turn after - I did lose much of my strenght (2500 to 500, human played drop-in battle when AI did siege at Omi) I found myself attacked by the Sakai to the north. I needed time and free hands to battle them back. To make the matters worse I also I got message from friendly source within the Uesugi clan that their daimyo did want to attack me, and he had 8 provinces to the east and was only once province away, while I was still fighting against the Asai clan. A feast for crows was I, eh? What did I do? My priority was to make peace with the Asai who still had Iga and Echizen, they agreed. Next step was to prevent another war. After agreeding on terms to the Uesugi clan (I gave him my only son as hostage plus 1200 gold for military alliance) I sent my ninja to sabotage large Sakai army and that way I bought myself one additional turn. My second general went to his daimyo's aid and reinforced almost destroyed army in Omi. Turn after I did sabotage the Saiko army again and went with my daimyo and all forces I could muster to forest nearby road to ambush them. Full succes and that was drop-in battle too with evenly balanced forces.

    Hatakeyama - 5 or 6 provinces - declared war on me turn after I eradicated the Sakai from the face of Japan. How nice, isn't it? With my only army far to the north there was little I could do. General went to Ise and Yamato has been abandoned to its fate and even fierce fights couldn't save it. Hatakeyama sized it a couple of turns after the war was declared. My situation was pretty bad - I had to reinforce Omi, Ise and do something with my daimyo and his army.

    Another diplomatic negotations - this time with the Hatano, the Takaoka clans and the Ashikaga Shogunate - to allow me to pass through their lands from Wakasa (former Sakai province) to the borders of Hatakeyama and Settsu province. Meanwhile my agents were busy: I did sabotage two medium armies and bribed one of them to join my cause with my metsuke. I also did sabotage the whole Hatakeyama army on the road between Omi and Wakasa. While monks were keeping Hatakeyama armies demoralised I joined all forces I could spare at Omi under my only general who then went through Ise to recapture Yamato. Long story short: thanks to my political sheme, use of agents and good strategy I was able to secure Settsu without even needing to siege the city (they has been starved out and no one did help them), seized Kawachi on the same turn and recaptured Yamato.

    I didn't capture Bessho, Kii and Kage only because Asai regained their strenght turn after and declared war on me. I forced the Hatakeyama clan to break all alliances, make their daughter to marry my only son and sign peace treaty. Now it's time to clean up the Asai...

    That's the way I play and I enjoy it. I have seen it in action so I know that diplomacy really works and for some players can make the game better - in terms of enjoyability - or easier because you don't war with everyone. Not everybody want to play total war or play quick and extremely effective and this guide is for them.
    "I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

    "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
  • FieldMedicFieldMedic Member Posts: 92Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Good stuff, although like Moocow I disagree somewhat with not taking territories quickly. Seems to me that a small diplomatic penalty is worth crushing a defeated enemy quickly and preventing him from rebuilding his forces to challenge you again. Once you've smashed through their front lines, drive as far into their undefended rear positions as possible. This would seem to be in line with Sun Tzu when he says "There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare." Ending the war quickly seems prudent, despite what other clans may think of you.
    "It's not enough to live. You have to have something to live for" - Commander Adama
  • Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior Member Posts: 453Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    FieldMedic - I agree that you should take as many territories as you can. I only state that more prudent is to finish one war with already weakened foe (kill him if you can or sign peace treaty if you have more pressing matters at hand and limited forces) then fight against another, more stronger opponent. Weakened foe will remain weakened for some time. Time you require to defend yourself somewhere else. It's also wiser to not get engaged in too many wars at the moment so it's better to buy peace before you have to go to war.
    "I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

    "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 13,109Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Nice guide! Can you submit a shorter point-form version for the FAQ thread? Make sure to post a link to here as well!
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  • Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior Member Posts: 453Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I'll see what I can do, but sure. Here it is:

    Being vassal:
    - You can't declare wars on anyone you want to.
    - You can declare war only against enemies of your masters.
    - You'll lose money as tribute to your lord's clan.

    Making peace:
    - Offer money (single payment if enough or as tribute).
    - Try giving hostages if you can afford it.
    - Marriages boost relationships greatly.
    - Millitary alliance gives you huge boost to relationship plus let you call this clan for aid when you're under attack.

    When to attack:
    - Avoid attacking in the first place (defender can call out his allies for help and they'll listen).
    - Let yourself be attacked (you can even request help from your allies if needed).
    - Attack those who has no friends nor allies.
    - Attack factions close to you (you don't need to estabilish additional army just to watch over distant provinces).
    - Attack clans who has different religion (they are less friendly and less liked overall).
    - Let your neigbours to wage war against themselves and the choose who do you want to strike.
    - Provoke your future enemy (by sending agents to sabotage, demoralise or kill agents who serve your would-be-enemy).

    When to stop:
    - Cease figthing when having wars on multiple fronts (either finish off one enemy or sign peace treaty if impossible and then go to next war or defend yourself against another threat).

    Maintain relationships:
    - Any unsuccesful or failed attempts of your agents will reflect negative in your diplomatic relations with sabotage faction.
    - Seizing multiple provinces too fast gives you diplomatic penalty so better avoid conquering everyone as fast as possible at all cost.
    - Looting damages daimyo's honor which can reflect your diplomatic relations.
    - Daimyo with strong honor gives you boost to diplomatic relations.
    - Factions with the same religion will be more friendly towards you so pick them over factions with different religion who'll be more hostile towards you.
    - Arrange marriages which greatly boosts diplomatic relationships.
    - Try to forge military alliances, this too gives you diplomatic bonus.
    - Attack common foes.
    - You can give gold if you have some to spare.
    - Join allies who cry out for help if it suits you - otherwise your daimyo will loose honor.
    - Try to prevent wars if you can (try to sign military alliance).
    - Signing peace treaty will lower the minuses the other faction will have towards you, so it may be worthwhile to sign these.
    "I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

    "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,271Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Some useful pointers here but what would really be useful is a definitive list of diplomatic bonuses and penalties. I've started compiling a list but would welcome any one else's insight.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 13,109Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    @Dribbs feel free to post them numbers for the FAQ thread.
    How to install Steam games without downloading
    How to post DXDiag: Windows+R key, type "dxdiag" in the input box. Select Save All Information, and attach as [/code]
    [code] in your post
  • dumbnoob1010dumbnoob1010 Junior Member Posts: 8Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Diplomacy works in your way until a stupid "threat of war" event ruins all your effort. So in addition to your points, I want to add "don't trust anybody at any time". I always station at least one ready-for-combat army led by a general near my most loyal allies.
  • Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior Member Posts: 453Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Diplomacy works in your way until a stupid "threat of war" event ruins all your effort.
    Threats of war are helpful because sometimes you can avoid war and even if you can't it's still possible to maneuver your foe into very difficult situation. When I did play my test campagin on hard as the Mori - to check out a few things - I managed to ally with the Kikkawa clan who turn before sought to attack me. They betrayed me so I signed peace treaty with the Amakawa and dealt with these loathsome traitors. Now only very few clans have something good to say to them and the rest of Japan hate them.
    So in addition to your points, I want to add "don't trust anybody at any time".
    Japanese are like one big family - they hate each other while at the same time they keep smiling during a party. "Trust issue" is standard in such games.
    I always station at least one ready-for-combat army led by a general near my most loyal allies.
    I agree that such show of strength discourages the others from attacking you but at the same time you've dead army (they sit doing very little if anything) while at the same time they eat away your income. It's far better to put this army to use rather than keep them in garrison duties all the time.
    "I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

    "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
  • DalkarDalkar Senior Member Posts: 359Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I have a good example of this type of diplomatic scheming.
    The Hojo had become pretty powerful in my Uesugi campaign, with about nine provinces by turn 35. That's almost the same as what I had at that point. I felt that they were too powerful. I noticed they were allied with most surrounding clans. I bribed his allies to break alliance with him, ally with me instead. The next turn, when I had fresh funds, I bribed his trade partners to break trade agreements. I sabotaged his farms with my 5 star ninja specced for sabotaging to reduce his income. After about two turns of this I declared war and all four neighbouring clans joined me in fighting him. He got mullered, to say the least :p
  • Holy.DeathHoly.Death Senior Member Posts: 453Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I have another one. The Uesugi was trying to bribe me to make war against the Mogami (4 provinces to the far east, closer to the Uesugi and the Angekoji allies rather than me). I decided to take 1500 Judas Coins, make the Ueusugi to cancel all trade relationships and break alliance with the Anegakoji (8 or 7 provinces). He agreed.

    I only got minor penalty for breaking trade agreement while the Monk King ended up in war against four clans (me - I decided it'll be wiser to defend my allies, the Angekoji against the Uesugi's aggresion than staying with the Uesugi as my ally, the Angekoji, the Mogami and the Honma). With the Uesugi fighting on two fronts (against my other enemies the Mogami and blocked by the Angekoji provinces east to me) I feel satisfied that my little scheme put an end to his well-being.
    "I can be beaten a hundred times, and still I will rise again, as strong as before".

    "Cowards and traitors deserve no second thoughts, only their complete annihilation".
  • ArchvonbaronArchvonbaron Junior Member Posts: 15Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    My diplomacy tends to go down the declare war, beat the **** out my target's armies, take what I wanted in the first place and then offer a peace treaty and a trade treaty while trying to get them to pay me as much as possible. I only really tip toe around when I need to buy time or an ally holds a province I need. Other then that I do what I need to do so I can avoid losing honour.
  • ninjastealthninjastealth Senior Member Posts: 189Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    This is a wonderful guide. This helps alot.
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,271Registered Users
    edited April 2011
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