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Just tired of the meta game works

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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    So you want good shock cav but you don't want them to have an easy time pulling out? How will you cycle charge then?
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    So you want good shock cav but you don't want them to have an easy time pulling out? How will you cycle charge then?
    I think circle charge should only limit to case where you cannot break through enemy line. If the line is breached, the cavs should have to either stay in melee or accept losing cavalrymen that stuck in enemy formation. With friendly infantry support, Shock cav should be able to fight well in melee against charged infantry, while should be less effective in melee against melee cavs.

    The way that pull through and circle charge with cavs works right now makes cavalry combat very counter-intuitive. Charging cavalry through your formation into enemy line frontally then follow with your own infantry while the cavs can be pull out all that blob with little damage.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    To be honest they aren't charging into that many men, usually 3-5 men deep so it kinda makes sense
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • BelisarAUTBelisarAUT Senior Member Posts: 208Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Seriously, screw that ****** separation between shock and melee cavalry, it's not only completely ahistorical but makes cavalry even harder to balance - there was no single patch when both melee and shock cavalry were both at the same time truly balanced.

    The whole concept of melee cavalry is absurd, cavalry is not here for a prolonged melee against infantery, no way it should be viable to charge with cavalry right into infantry and slaughter it.
    Check out my channel for some fierce 1v1 online battles
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJeTRll-Z3rfFWZq3mDIt7g
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    To be honest they aren't charging into that many men, usually 3-5 men deep so it kinda makes sense
    5 men is quiet deep in the context of TW series. I don't mind about cavs can break through 5 men deep, however, if a player decide to charge into an infantry formation of that depth frontally, they should expect to lose a significant amount of cavalry. On return, when charging an already engaged enemy from the rear, shock cavalry should perform better in prolong melee instead of having to continuously circle charge. I think shock cavalry role should be break into enemy line and spread havok, not constantly run around and headbutt.
  • heavycavalryheavycavalry Senior Member Posts: 113Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    BelisarAUT wrote: »
    Seriously, screw that ****** separation between shock and melee cavalry, it's not only completely ahistorical but makes cavalry even harder to balance - there was no single patch when both melee and shock cavalry were both at the same time truly balanced.

    The whole concept of melee cavalry is absurd, cavalry is not here for a prolonged melee against infantery, no way it should be viable to charge with cavalry right into infantry and slaughter it.
    Then what unit do you think should be used to counter melee infantry spam?Better melee infantry than your enemy?
    steam ID:[han]heavycavalry1
  • Mahmoud ben-ShareefMahmoud ben-Shareef Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    I like the buff of Skirmisher in patch 15 but Hoplites are OP. Thorax, Carthaginian, Veteran Hoplites can beat any sword of the same tier, while elite Hoplites can kill anything except those with Headhunt, Second Wind magic.

    i call BS on that!
    dont know if meant patch15 specifically or general but either way that isnt the case!
    next time u wanna tell me elite pikes r op! or swords r prone to cav attacks!
    All sword unit need a small 5 bonus vs inf. for Hellenic/Italian sword have some relevant. Barb. sword needs a small adjust in their AP damage.

    imo its just the tribals from tylis who need adjustment.
    hellenes should have other tools; but if i inderstood u correctly, nothing on foot should b useful except sword infantry and missiles.
    italic swords r perfectly fine too

    id rather have that anti inf bonus just on melee cav
    5 men is quiet deep in the context of TW series. I don't mind about cavs can break through 5 men deep, however, if a player decide to charge into an infantry formation of that depth frontally, they should expect to lose a significant amount of cavalry. On return, when charging an already engaged enemy from the rear, shock cavalry should perform better in prolong melee instead of having to continuously circle charge. I think shock cavalry role should be break into enemy line and spread havok, not constantly run around and headbutt.

    if horses could penetrate that deep from the front regularly itd become totally impossible to keep hostile cav from skirmishers. but hey! pull through would b a thing!
    Then what unit do you think should be used to counter melee infantry spam?Better melee infantry than your enemy?

    rear-attacks and skirmishers?
    remember the times when ppl picked like 5-6 elite melee cav? i thought this to b a bit excessive - some ppl like it some dont. i for my part would prefer a good compromise between patch14 and patch15 beta.

    THIS IS CURRENTLY A DRAFT

    -in progress-

    gameplay enhancement proposals (HISTORICAL titles) that would imo improve tactical options
    that may also go well with the dogma 'easy to learn, hard to master'


    scouting and environment

    - forest less camo
    - decrease sight heavy units drastically
    - generally more slight hills
    - ponds, rivers
    - light troops move through forest, swamp much easier than main-line troops
    - formation has forest penalty
    - forest break cav charge
    - fundament set, but not utilized
    - changes would improve roster balance; light troops universal
    - most units cannot go into formation in forest

    skirmishing

    - ammunition (arena)
    - missile harrassement - applies movement penalty, morale penalty
    // expectation: skirmishers effective (can slow down rush or counter skirmishers), stacking missile fire no problem, no general sniping, catching skirmishers gets a bit harder (not necessarily bad => more zoning)

    unit balance

    - prevalence cavalry, mobile melee units
    - instead, mobile striking arm causes routs
    - a more differentiated block chance model may do wonders to the skirmishing part
    - - like; generally increased missile block for shields throughout board + slight missile damage increase + armour counting towards missile block (albeit minimally);
    - - armoured units without shield ~+ 10,
    - - armour clad units without shield ~+ 25
    - - units shielded ~+ 55-70, tower shield ~ 85 (may not stack with armor)
    - cav generally poor missile block (0-25) (except horse armor [counts towards shield])

    formations/drill

    - guard mode
    - cav repelling circle/carree/shiltron
    - shieldwall/spearwall/phalanx
    - elite, shock; flying wedge/boar snout - increase attack, drastically increase charge bonus, drastically decrease defense, stamina
    - formations crucial for main line units (sword, spear [in a tw world where non cheesy spears r viable] alike)
    - pls get rid of spaghetti lines PARTICULARLY pike spaghetti

    extensive morale

    - fear effect much greater (skirmishers easily scared due no drill perform defensive formation)
    - local superiority; stacking morale debuff
    - pronounced fear effect

    baggage encampement

    - rallying point
    - ammo refill
    - artillery target
    - eastern factions (camel baggage ammo refill)

    functionality

    - 40-units-host displayed in listing-room
    - 40-units quickmatch

    drawbacks

    - ai would have to consider some of it
    - budget (some/most features debatable whether feasable worth budget perspective)
    - may not correspond with expectations tw conformists/traditionalists

    proposals that may not b feasable but i still felt worth mentioning issues

    [+] unit pushing mechanic (reference; early stages of Arena has shown its possible)
    [+] less napoleon-esqe cuirassier cavalry engagements (much more loose spacing, charge in formation rare, pitched static melee between opposing cavalrymen rare)
    [+] perhaps wishful thinking but the game would greatly benefit from uniform unit sizes (altering sizes, altering gameplay [missiles get stronger/weaker; increased/decreased distances, et c.])


    check
    [c] reintroduction 40 units
    [c] reintroduction guard mode
    ...
    in progress

    nice to have
    [+] introduction mass system
    [+] introduction line of sight
    [+] introduction bracing mechanic
    ...
    in progress

    detriment
    [-] unit stiffness causes strange behaviour on individual soldiers on the charge as well as in protracted melee
    - - units occasionally stick out in order to keep formation like uncooked noodles instead of participating in the brawl (looking pretty is not the point of formation fighting)
    [-] second wind, ... other active abilities with poor context
    [-] pike phalanx currently broken (+ spaghetti lining) (also due to lack of pushing mechanic [reference; early stages of Arena])

    Attila changing proposals/speculation

    theres enough reason to believe that 2 handed axes + elite cavalry r so overly prevalent in this game for a reason

    hetaireia guards [+ 25]
    burgundian axemen [+ 50]
    nordic axe warriors [+ 50]
    huskarls [+ 75]
    royal huskarls [+ 75]

    nordic horse lords [+100]
    heroic cav [+ 25]
    noble horsemen [+ 50]
    noble alani cav [+ 50]
    alani mounted veterans [+ 25]
    noble germanic horsemen [+ 0]

    crossbows buff
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    i call BS on that!
    dont know if meant patch15 specifically or general but either way that isnt the case!
    next time u wanna tell me elite pikes r op! or swords r prone to cav attacks!



    imo its just the tribals from tylis who need adjustment.
    hellenes should have other tools; but if i inderstood u correctly, nothing on foot should b useful except sword infantry and missiles.
    italic swords r perfectly fine too

    id rather have that anti inf bonus just on melee cav



    if horses could penetrate that deep from the front regularly itd become totally impossible to keep hostile cav from skirmishers. but hey! pull through would b a thing!



    rear-attacks and skirmishers?
    remember the times when ppl picked like 5-6 elite melee cav? i thought this to b a bit excessive - some ppl like it some dont. i for my part would prefer a good compromise between patch14 and patch15 beta.
    i personally think patch 14 with a few balance changes (make spears slightly better/worthwhile) would have been the best way, that way we wont have to nerf cav and therefor not just end up with a sword META but instead a META where cav was slightly worse but still kept sword in check without problems.

    also from what i understand (I've seen some test done on youtube) cavalry generally would have a very hard time pushing through more than 2 lines of men.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • Mahmoud ben-ShareefMahmoud ben-Shareef Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    i personally think patch 14 with a few balance changes (make spears slightly better/worthwhile) would have been the best way, that way we wont have to nerf cav and therefor not just end up with a sword META but instead a META where cav was slightly worse but still kept sword in check without problems.

    also from what i understand (I've seen some test done on youtube) cavalry generally would have a very hard time pushing through more than 2 lines of men.

    yes, sounds good.
    cavalry in general r in dire need of buff particularly in offensive capabilities as the protracted melees make hit and run (except kiting) imo impossible even when spread out. once caught the enemy has enough time to send foot reinforcments in. cav need buff even more so with the free javelins which make even sword infantry useful as a cav deterrent.
    +
    now with cavalry being weak the usefulness of hoplites and spears outside of cav fights r getting apparent. => sword meta. we have armoured naginata in shogun 2 which r imo balanced by now. would an "excell at nothing"/allrounder unit destroy meta in rome 2? i think not but unit diversity seems to b rather unnappealing to some traditionalists. also imo the spear as a weapon never became obsolete throughout the ancients. a veteran is a veteran regardless.

    ive been pleading for useful mid/high tier spear/hoplite for a very long time now xD. patch15beta looked promising in this respect but in the end balance between these two didnt change. now its all slower paced + free javelins and cav nerf :C

    id prefer a patch14 balance (+working morale system)
    + the strong (naginata-like) hoplites and useful spears from patch15beta (this is what i mean by good compromise)
    + some hybrid(melee/skirmishers) buff
    + either a fix on pikes or price decrease all across this class.
    - altho that superficial bonus vs infantry on foot swords i do not miss at all

    slight adjustment to elite melee cav + increased deadliness vs large of hoplites and spears if necessary

    this imo looks juicy

    THIS IS CURRENTLY A DRAFT

    -in progress-

    gameplay enhancement proposals (HISTORICAL titles) that would imo improve tactical options
    that may also go well with the dogma 'easy to learn, hard to master'


    scouting and environment

    - forest less camo
    - decrease sight heavy units drastically
    - generally more slight hills
    - ponds, rivers
    - light troops move through forest, swamp much easier than main-line troops
    - formation has forest penalty
    - forest break cav charge
    - fundament set, but not utilized
    - changes would improve roster balance; light troops universal
    - most units cannot go into formation in forest

    skirmishing

    - ammunition (arena)
    - missile harrassement - applies movement penalty, morale penalty
    // expectation: skirmishers effective (can slow down rush or counter skirmishers), stacking missile fire no problem, no general sniping, catching skirmishers gets a bit harder (not necessarily bad => more zoning)

    unit balance

    - prevalence cavalry, mobile melee units
    - instead, mobile striking arm causes routs
    - a more differentiated block chance model may do wonders to the skirmishing part
    - - like; generally increased missile block for shields throughout board + slight missile damage increase + armour counting towards missile block (albeit minimally);
    - - armoured units without shield ~+ 10,
    - - armour clad units without shield ~+ 25
    - - units shielded ~+ 55-70, tower shield ~ 85 (may not stack with armor)
    - cav generally poor missile block (0-25) (except horse armor [counts towards shield])

    formations/drill

    - guard mode
    - cav repelling circle/carree/shiltron
    - shieldwall/spearwall/phalanx
    - elite, shock; flying wedge/boar snout - increase attack, drastically increase charge bonus, drastically decrease defense, stamina
    - formations crucial for main line units (sword, spear [in a tw world where non cheesy spears r viable] alike)
    - pls get rid of spaghetti lines PARTICULARLY pike spaghetti

    extensive morale

    - fear effect much greater (skirmishers easily scared due no drill perform defensive formation)
    - local superiority; stacking morale debuff
    - pronounced fear effect

    baggage encampement

    - rallying point
    - ammo refill
    - artillery target
    - eastern factions (camel baggage ammo refill)

    functionality

    - 40-units-host displayed in listing-room
    - 40-units quickmatch

    drawbacks

    - ai would have to consider some of it
    - budget (some/most features debatable whether feasable worth budget perspective)
    - may not correspond with expectations tw conformists/traditionalists

    proposals that may not b feasable but i still felt worth mentioning issues

    [+] unit pushing mechanic (reference; early stages of Arena has shown its possible)
    [+] less napoleon-esqe cuirassier cavalry engagements (much more loose spacing, charge in formation rare, pitched static melee between opposing cavalrymen rare)
    [+] perhaps wishful thinking but the game would greatly benefit from uniform unit sizes (altering sizes, altering gameplay [missiles get stronger/weaker; increased/decreased distances, et c.])


    check
    [c] reintroduction 40 units
    [c] reintroduction guard mode
    ...
    in progress

    nice to have
    [+] introduction mass system
    [+] introduction line of sight
    [+] introduction bracing mechanic
    ...
    in progress

    detriment
    [-] unit stiffness causes strange behaviour on individual soldiers on the charge as well as in protracted melee
    - - units occasionally stick out in order to keep formation like uncooked noodles instead of participating in the brawl (looking pretty is not the point of formation fighting)
    [-] second wind, ... other active abilities with poor context
    [-] pike phalanx currently broken (+ spaghetti lining) (also due to lack of pushing mechanic [reference; early stages of Arena])

    Attila changing proposals/speculation

    theres enough reason to believe that 2 handed axes + elite cavalry r so overly prevalent in this game for a reason

    hetaireia guards [+ 25]
    burgundian axemen [+ 50]
    nordic axe warriors [+ 50]
    huskarls [+ 75]
    royal huskarls [+ 75]

    nordic horse lords [+100]
    heroic cav [+ 25]
    noble horsemen [+ 50]
    noble alani cav [+ 50]
    alani mounted veterans [+ 25]
    noble germanic horsemen [+ 0]

    crossbows buff
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    i call BS on that!
    dont know if meant patch15 specifically or general but either way that isnt the case!
    next time u wanna tell me elite pikes r op! or swords r prone to cav attacks!

    Do some research before you call BS on anything.

    On higher end, Elite hoplites beat Elite Sword.
    v5nyQ4t.png

    On lower end, mid-tier Hoplites beat mid tier-sword.
    8952agC.png

    Spear stats is ok, in fact, I believe spear damage can use some buff. But the bonus vs infantry for Hoplite Wall skill should be remove as soon as possible, and replace it with 100% bonus toward armor/defend instead. Hoplites Wall should act like a defense mechanism, and Hoplites Wall might hold against sword in prolonged time. But at current state, the skill makes Hoplites can kill infantry faster than elite sword.

    pi1qvju.png

    All swords should lost 10 from their base damage, and replace with 10 bonus vs infantry instead. OathSworn should have 35 weapon damage and 10 bonus vs infantry.

    Cavalry engagement should be more sticky, so spear unit would have time to engage and punish reckless cavalry charge.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Do some research before you call BS on anything.

    On higher end, Elite hoplites beat Elite Sword.
    v5nyQ4t.png

    On lower end, mid-tier Hoplites beat mid tier-sword.
    8952agC.png

    Spear stats is ok, in fact, I believe spear damage can use some buff. But the bonus vs infantry for Hoplite Wall skill should be remove as soon as possible, and replace it with 100% bonus toward armor/defend instead. Hoplites Wall should act like a defense mechanism, and Hoplites Wall might hold against sword in prolonged time. But at current state, the skill makes Hoplites can kill infantry faster than elite sword.

    pi1qvju.png

    All swords should lost 10 from their base damage, and replace with 10 bonus vs infantry instead. OathSworn should have 35 weapon damage and 10 bonus vs infantry.

    Cavalry engagement should be more sticky, so spear unit would have time to engage and punish reckless cavalry charge.
    using the computer is a wrng methode and will create weird results, player vs player test i assure you they would have lost.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    using the computer is a wrng methode and will create weird results, player vs player test i assure you they would have lost.

    I confirm
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


    HUITZILOPOCHTLI

    god of war

    LIZARDMEN #makelustriagreatagain
    Clan Moulder #masterclan
  • venansulavenansula Senior Member Posts: 199Registered Users
    edited February 2015
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    using the computer is a wrng methode and will create weird results, player vs player test i assure you they would have lost.
    There is no weird result, Hoplites outdo Pretorian completely. In human hand, with the correct use of Headhunt magic, hoplites may lose, but I remind you that they are the cheaper unit. Yet, they still outperform Praetorian and many non-Barb sword units, despite being cheaper.

    Hoplites should be a hold line unit, not a infantry killing machine. Their bonus vs inf. must be remove in favor of defensive buff.
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,641Registered Users, Smiley
    edited February 2015
    The reason you get those results is that the AI misuses its abilities to take an early fatigue penalty that reduces the effectiveness of the unit more than the ability would boost.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    There is no weird result, Hoplites outdo Pretorian completely. In human hand, with the correct use of Headhunt magic, hoplites may lose, but I remind you that they are the cheaper unit. Yet, they still outperform Praetorian and many non-Barb sword units, despite being cheaper.

    Hoplites should be a hold line unit, not a infantry killing machine. Their bonus vs inf. must be remove in favor of defensive buff.
    no they would almost certainly lose no matter what, testing vs AI is wrong cause:
    1) there is no setting where AI isn't buffed or nerfed
    2) the AI is going to screw up its abilities, seriously they are better off not having any.

    i some times test vs AI but i don't view the tests as conclusive and at best i use it to get an idea of what to expect, and usually i already kinda predicted results prior.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    There is no weird result, Hoplites outdo Pretorian completely. In human hand, with the correct use of Headhunt magic, hoplites may lose, but I remind you that they are the cheaper unit. Yet, they still outperform Praetorian and many non-Barb sword units, despite being cheaper.

    Hoplites should be a hold line unit, not a infantry killing machine. Their bonus vs inf. must be remove in favor of defensive buff.

    Not only that hoplites don't beat swords but they suck so much that they are virtually useless on the battlefield and nobody brings them anymore except newbies. I'm not sure why you're results are messed up but you probably have "difficulty" slider in wrong place, or you try to fight AI who is dumb enough to fire headhunt right away, exhausting itself way too early.

    Also it's a question of formation attack/ non formation attack with shieldwall /hoplite wall interaction. This can change results drastically.

    Only hoplite that will defeat sword is thorax hoplite (formation attack off, HW on) against thorax swords in other words best mid tier hoplite vs worst mid tier sword.

    But against barbarian chosen swords he will actually do worse then thorax sword, interestingly.
    I suggest you watch maximus chanel and his testing vids, plenty of useful stuff there to learn;
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr7HLoRrUHO7T03BGRf2E1Y3lwlC_Fx77

    And if you still don't believe us, try to take your powerful Hoplite army in MP/quickbattle and tell us how it went : ) Only adriaei have hoplites strong enough to compete with medium-high tier sword faction, but even they are considered non flexible enough by most.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    AggonyDuck wrote: »
    The reason you get those results is that the AI misuses its abilities to take an early fatigue penalty that reduces the effectiveness of the unit more than the ability would boost.

    Then how could you explain the result of Praetorian vs Oathsworn and Hoplites vs Oathsworn. AI behaved the same way but Hoplites was able to kill Oathsowrn faster with less lost comparing to Praetorian.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Then how could you explain the result of Praetorian vs Oathsworn and Hoplites vs Oathsworn. AI behaved the same way but Hoplites was able to kill Oathsowrn faster with less lost comparing to Praetorian.
    because fatigue would mean more in a longer engagement? there are other options too.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Not only that hoplites don't beat swords but they suck so much that they are virtually useless on the battlefield and nobody brings them anymore except newbies. I'm not sure why you're results are messed up but you probably have "difficulty" slider in wrong place, or you try to fight AI who is dumb enough to fire headhunt right away, exhausting itself way too early.

    Also it's a question of formation attack/ non formation attack with shieldwall /hoplite wall interaction. This can change results drastically.

    Only hoplite that will defeat sword is thorax hoplite (formation attack off, HW on) against thorax swords in other words best mid tier hoplite vs worst mid tier sword.

    But against barbarian chosen swords he will actually do worse then thorax sword, interestingly.
    I suggest you watch maximus chanel and his testing vids, plenty of useful stuff there to learn;
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr7HLoRrUHO7T03BGRf2E1Y3lwlC_Fx77

    And if you still don't believe us, try to take your powerful Hoplite army in MP/quickbattle and tell us how it went : ) Only adriaei have hoplites strong enough to compete with medium-high tier sword faction, but even they are considered non flexible enough by most.

    Hoplites is OP, they never lose in frontal combat against same tier unit. However, the faction that own those hoplites are completely lack of other important tool to take use of their unit. They lack of strong mid-tier melee cavs and cost effective screening unit.

    The Maximus tested was skewed up because he test multiple engagements right next to another. This lead to a chain rout effect for Hoplites. In his test Thorax Sword against Chosen Sword, he gives more times between engagement, therefore the Thorax Sword could hold until there is only 20 men left, while the Hoplites, due to chain rout, flee when they still have 40 men despite having more morale than Thorax Sword.

    You need depth understand of the mechanics when watching those video, failed to recognize such simple mechanics like chain rout will lead to wrong conclusion.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    because fatigue would mean more in a longer engagement? there are other options too.

    Praetorian take longer time to kill Oathsword, so if fatigue mean more in longer engagement, then Praetorian is the one who benefit from such long engagement. But instead, more Praetorian die in the process.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Hoplites is OP, they never lose in frontal combat against same tier unit. However, the faction that own those hoplites are completely lack of other important tool to take use of their unit. They lack of strong mid-tier melee cavs and cost effective screening unit.
    Not true, as we have already told you, hoplites lose to swords as a rule. Quality of cavalry is not that important in this meta but helenic faction have in fact excellent cav support, from medians to thesalians, even cataprachts, campagnians, companions ... you name it. They have excellent skirmishers too all they lack is spear levy.

    You need depth understand of the mechanics when watching those video, failed to recognize such simple mechanics like chain rout will lead to wrong conclusion.
    Current meta is sword. Everyone knows it except seemingly you. Check some tournament videos on recommended channel where most skilled and highest ranked players participate. Or just play multiplayer game on occasion. Get educated on subject because you just sound silly now. I don't know why your results came as they have but I assure you, praetorians do not lose to friggin' hoplites, no matter how good they are ; )
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Not true, as we have already told you, hoplites lose to swords as a rule. Quality of cavalry is not that important in this meta but helenic faction have in fact excellent cav support, from medians to thesalians, even cataprachts, campagnians, companions ... you name it. They have excellent skirmishers too all they lack is spear levy.

    Your knowledge about the same seem rather very limit, you even list units which is terrible in term of cost effective.
    Current meta is sword. Everyone knows it except seemingly you. Check some tournament videos on recommended channel where most skilled and highest ranked players participate. Or just play multiplayer game on occasion. Get educated on subject because you just sound silly now.
    Lol, you don't even know what meta mean, or the correlation between meta and game balance. If sword is meta, then how many thorax sword, pathian sword or pontic sword had won a tournament? Only Celtic Sword has a word in the current meta, and in fact, ton of mediocre player just copy what top player do without give a good though about what actually cause the build effective. Boii and Tylis have very cost effective sub-elite sword infantry, but non-barb mid-tier sword unit is no match for hoplites of same price.
    I don't know why your results came as they have but I assure you, praetorians do not lose to friggin' hoplites, no matter how good they are ; )
    http://www.twitch.tv/winsunshine/b/623816610
    I run my Spartan Hoplites a little bit too much, so they were constantly more fatigue than Praetorian Guard. Despite such handicap, hoplites beat praetorian. I disable formation attack of both unit.

    Most people seem to not realize that, with hoplites wall activated, Elite Hoplites spear has much higher effective damage than any sword unit when armor is put into consider. The fact that they could win against any sword is pretty obvious.
  • The KestrelThe Kestrel Senior Member Posts: 850Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Not a single person has ever said that Pontic Swords are cost-effective.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Your knowledge about the same seem rather very limit, you even list units which is terrible in term of cost effective.
    Now memcann would answer you "1v1 me nemetocenna"!!
    Look you've said that helenic factions have no aces to any good cav. I've just pointed out that they have variety of cav on their disposal. And elite cav except catas are now in distadvantage in all factions, not just helenic.
    Lol, you don't even know what meta mean, or the correlation between meta and game balance. If sword is meta, then how many thorax sword, pathian sword or pontic sword had won a tournament? Only Celtic Sword has a word in the current meta,
    I am going to assume that you are quite young and enthusiastic so I won't bash you as you perhaps deserve. Sword is definitely meta and I know what I'm talking about. Every sword is valid, from iberinas to etruscans to barbarian to roman. Helenic factions are somewhat an exception but even they have access to merc swords that are fairly good, or their own decent elite swords; factions like egypt, epyrus, syracuse and I will count carthago in. All of those can arrange sword core that will easily defeat possible newbie hoplite army with ease.

    Eastern factions have catas, and top tier archers - should they have legion grade infantry as well? They all other factions would not have reason to exist.
    Most people seem to not realize that, with hoplites wall activated, Elite Hoplites spear has much higher effective damage than any sword unit when armor is put into consider. The fact that they could win against any sword is pretty obvious.
    They get +5/+5 on weapon att. /damage. Nice but still not nearly enough to make them cost effective.

    I'm not sure what is wrong with your testing methodology or game (perhaps your game is bugged :P ) but you cannot be right and every other person in the world wrong. Do you play quick battles? Your friends? Anyone? I mean it's possible to win with strongest spear factions like adriaei or sparta, they are not completely hopeless, still they are at disadvantage and people generally avoid them, except newbies.


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    Here I've tried to emulate battle conditions as closely as I've could. I always gave hoplites wider formation, formation off and hoplite wall. I've not even used SW on my swords. I've tired out royal hoplites because i know computer will activate HH too early on his Oaths. I think those results speak for themselves. 2x difference in kills is btw DRASTIC, army convincingly wins even with 20% of kills more.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Your knowledge about the same seem rather very limit, you even list units which is terrible in term of cost effective.


    Lol, you don't even know what meta mean, or the correlation between meta and game balance. If sword is meta, then how many thorax sword, pathian sword or pontic sword had won a tournament? Only Celtic Sword has a word in the current meta, and in fact, ton of mediocre player just copy what top player do without give a good though about what actually cause the build effective. Boii and Tylis have very cost effective sub-elite sword infantry, but non-barb mid-tier sword unit is no match for hoplites of same price.


    http://www.twitch.tv/winsunshine/b/623816610
    I run my Spartan Hoplites a little bit too much, so they were constantly more fatigue than Praetorian Guard. Despite such handicap, hoplites beat praetorian. I disable formation attack of both unit.

    Most people seem to not realize that, with hoplites wall activated, Elite Hoplites spear has much higher effective damage than any sword unit when armor is put into consider. The fact that they could win against any sword is pretty obvious.
    so i took some tests.
    3 spartan hoplites (which i consider to be the most cost effective hoplites) vs 3 legion cohort, same price.
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391364210

    the legion cohort won 2/3 engagements and the last fight ended up with around 20 surviving spartan hoplites survived.
    the reason for the "close defeat" is just simply that the spartan command unit was able to beat all my remaining units, which is a trait a keen to elite hoplites they usually excel at removing damaged units.

    i also tried a test vs AI just to see what results i got:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391364170

    i think this pretty much speaks for itself.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    so i took some tests.
    3 spartan hoplites (which i consider to be the most cost effective hoplites) vs 3 legion cohort, same price.
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391364210

    the legion cohort won 2/3 engagements and the last fight ended up with around 20 surviving spartan hoplites survived.
    the reason for the "close defeat" is just simply that the spartan command unit was able to beat all my remaining units, which is a trait a keen to elite hoplites they usually excel at removing damaged units.

    i also tried a test vs AI just to see what results i got:
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391364170

    i think this pretty much speaks for itself.
    Spartan hoplites is not the most cost effective Hoplites IMO. The most cost effective hoplite should be Thorax Hoplite with their insane weapon damage. Thorax Hoplite will beat Legionary Conhort, while Veterian Hoplite will beat Veteran Legionaries.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Hoplites is OP, they never lose in frontal combat against same tier unit. However, the faction that own those hoplites are completely lack of other important tool to take use of their unit. They lack of strong mid-tier melee cavs and cost effective screening unit.

    The Maximus tested was skewed up because he test multiple engagements right next to another. This lead to a chain rout effect for Hoplites. In his test Thorax Sword against Chosen Sword, he gives more times between engagement, therefore the Thorax Sword could hold until there is only 20 men left, while the Hoplites, due to chain rout, flee when they still have 40 men despite having more morale than Thorax Sword.

    You need depth understand of the mechanics when watching those video, failed to recognize such simple mechanics like chain rout will lead to wrong conclusion.

    Please stop talking absolute nonsense. The conclusions you see in maximus videos are not made only based on that particular test/video. They´re a result of observation on the battlefield and a lot of other testing and discussing between players. The video, while still accurate, is merely a ilustration of this conclusions. There might have been some little, but very little, influence of army losses in the final stats of the last thorax hoplite, maybe. But there definitely was no chain route and yes, thorax hoplites will do worse than thorax swords against barbarians, royal spartans will loose to oathsworn and hoplites will suffer and be cost ineffective against swords in almost all scenarios.
    I agree in one point. You really need in depth understanding of the mechanics to raise logical and trusty conclusions, which you didn´t at all with your testing against the AI.
    Take a friend who plays the game and do the re testing with him. You´ll see for yourself how ridiculous conclusions raised by testing with the AI are.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    People seem to disregard the pretty massive cost-differential between elite-tier spears and elite-tier swords. they will obviously lose out to them, but against most mid-tier swords, elite-tier hoplites have no problem defeating them with formation attack off and phalanx on after the charge. same case with elite-tier spears.

    most of these guys cost 1050-1200 odd talents. for that price, they do a great job.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    We don't disregard it, but making core of 1000+ cost troops to defeat 700+ isn't best option. If you want to go in 1000+ category, noble swords and royal peltasts /royal thorax swords are quite near.

    But yes, elite pikes seem less sucky then mid tier, if nothing they are badass reliable troops that are very hard to kill.

    EDIT

    btw, Obelix The Great, you are da real MVP, enduring all those boring tests with Maximus! : )
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