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Concernedtinople

FredrinFredrin Senior MemberLondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
edited February 2015 in General Discussion
OK, this is not an excuse to go nuts and call doom on the coming game but I am legitimately concerned about sieges. With the usual caveats about preview build, outnumbered garrison forces etc, watch from 4:30 to about 7:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AbMRuLV8s

Constantinople had the strongest city fortifications ever constructed, falling only once to the Fourth Crusade in the 1,000 years between their construction in the 5th century and their capture by the Ottomans in 1453.

In this video, it takes roughly 4 minutes from an attack order to 3 units of skirmishers on the gates for WarriorofSparta's whole force to be streaming through the gates.

Not quite what we'd been led to expect from Rally Point 23 (6:50 onwards)

Am I missing something here? Please keep it civil in the comments.
Post edited by Fredrin on
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Comments

  • TheGhostOfProman16TheGhostOfProman16 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,749
    edited February 2015
    All I can say is we've only seen the preview build from October.
    We won't know if it's going to be a problem until the game actually comes out on the 17th.
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  • RealWarfareRealWarfare Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,036
    edited February 2015
    Al is telling the truth in the video; the walls are seemingly impenetrable. The gates, not so much. They do know to say the right things, only bending slightly on the truth. :D

    Anyway on topic, it really looks like a repetition of Rome 2. If you fail to take a city, you should have to return to the drawing board, form a new plan and execute it once the necessary key elements of it (such as siege equipment or reinforcements) are in place. Torching the gates is not just a last resort, it's actually highly effective and reduces or entirely nullifies the need for these elements. Essentially, it also means sieges can only really end one way once an assault has begun - someone emerges victorious and the siege is lifted/over, as opposed to the whole process going on for additional time because the attackers weren't sufficiently prepared to assault. The latter makes for more interesting gameplay, where you have to consider more factors if the siege goes on for longer than anticipated.

    It's fair to say that the torches is pretty much the core issue here. Without them, the player would have had to retreat and actually figure some sort of plausible method to take the city, instead of having perhaps one of the most effective means at hand and for granted.
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  • GingerRoeBroGingerRoeBro Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,041
    edited February 2015
    What's the point of them making the city look so unstoppable and amazing when all I have to do is send a bunch peasants to the gates and burn it down? Makes no sense to me to put that much effort into the walls when all Anybody's going to do is just burn the gates.
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  • GelstonGelston Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,591
    edited February 2015
    I miss draws in sieges.
  • Lord_DGPLord_DGP Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 733
    edited February 2015
    Huge Cities like Rome and Constantinople...
    Lord DGP wrote: »
    ...should be difficult to capture, but the AI often does not defend these cities, so it will be an underwhelming experience when your troops attack these cities and only face garrison troops. :(

    My suggestion would be to boost the AI city defence like in Hannibal at the Gates or the Ashikaga Shogunate in Shogun 2, giving them a huge garrison army.

    I know this is a workaround and cheat, but why do they design huge epic cities with an AI that won't defend them.

    Underwhelming experience - Example:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AbMRuLV8s

    Aside from the fact that sieging cities with torches should be punished much more or taken out completely, the local garrison is not enough to offer a battle through the entire city.
  • AlebrigAlebrig Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 25
    edited February 2015
    Is there any mods that get rid of torches for gates in Rome II? If so, maybe modders could do the same for Attila?
  • CobblarsCobblars Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 186
    edited February 2015
    Alebrig wrote: »
    Is there any mods that get rid of torches for gates in Rome II? If so, maybe modders could do the same for Attila?

    Probably yes and yes.

    SP campaign; I can understand the concern. Though Attila still on an early build. Can only keep fingers crossed that there has been some improvement.
  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator USAModerators, Tech Moderators, Knights Posts: 7,730
    edited February 2015
    Good thread title. I would agree on both main points made in this thread.

    1)Torches as coded in the review builds negate the usefulness of walls.

    2)The siege is recorded from the preview build from October.
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  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    We need to go back to older games where you cannot breach a city gate without a ram, or a spy opening it(I actually really liked this feature). And when you run out of siege equipment, that's it, the battle ends, you lost, but you maintain siege and build up again. No assaulting without siege equipment, period.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    Good thread title. I would agree on both main points made in this thread.

    1)Torches as coded in the review builds negate the usefulness of walls.

    2)The siege is recorded from the preview build from October.

    Number 2 is interesting. The video is dated 18th January but does that mean the preview build has received no updates since then? That would certainly be a good sign.

    I'm hoping/guessing torches are just there as a temporary mechanic until they design in something that makes more sense.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    Fredrin wrote: »
    Number 2 is interesting. The video is dated 18th January but does that mean the preview build has received no updates since then? That would certainly be a good sign.

    I'm hoping/guessing torches are just there as a temporary mechanic until they design in something that makes more sense.

    The preview build is from October, yes, but I don't think it received any updates at all, I think those players just keep the same build. It was purely for advertisement, so CA picked something stable and sent that out, while working on the game after that, and keeping it to themselves.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

    My Build:
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  • mmurray821mmurray821 Moderator Moderators Posts: 5,227
    edited February 2015
    Speculation on my part:

    1)The preview builds are not getting updated since they are a 40 turn stand alone thingy.

    2)The builds in the Let's Play videos most likely are being updated and show newer builds than the preview version.

    I still hope torches are gone for the gates, but I won't hold my breath.
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  • GelstonGelston Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,591
    edited February 2015
    mmurray821 wrote: »
    Speculation on my part:

    1)The preview builds are not getting updated since they are a 40 turn stand alone thingy.

    2)The builds in the Let's Play videos most likely are being updated and show newer builds than the preview version.

    I still hope torches are gone for the gates, but I won't hold my breath.

    The torches were on the stream today. You can also burn down gates with fire arrows.
  • Count RaviolliCount Raviolli Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 119
    edited February 2015
    Yes- NO MORE TORCHES! No more city assaults without siege equipment!
  • MooseDeeMooseDee Banned Banned Users Posts: 359
    edited February 2015
    The torches are still there because it is a feature that's so hardcoded into the game it requires a lot of time and resources to have a rethink and a redo.

    Don't treat this game as if it's a completely different one to rome 2.
  • trojan1001trojan1001 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6
    edited February 2015
    Fredrin wrote: »
    Number 2 is interesting. The video is dated 18th January but does that mean the preview build has received no updates since then? That would certainly be a good sign.

    I'm hoping/guessing torches are just there as a temporary mechanic until they design in something that makes more sense.

    Who needs torches even.
    With the cool new ground breaking feature of ''siege escalation'' even an army without any siege engines can render the sturdiest of walls useless after a couple of turns :eek:
  • Augustus caesarAugustus caesar Member Registered Users Posts: 81
    edited February 2015
    MooseDee wrote: »
    The torches are still there because it is a feature that's so hardcoded into the game it requires a lot of time and resources to have a rethink and a redo.

    Don't treat this game as if it's a completely different one to rome 2.
    You have no idea that the feature is hardcoded into the game. The only reason CA hasn't released mods to change it means they don't want it removed i bet its the easiest feature to remove since it doesn't relate to anything else in the game. Dont make excuses for CA i think we've had enough of people saying that something is sooo hard for CA to do or it would require alot of work. Thats their job they should spend entire days and nights working to get it right thats what they do. This is like saying that team will never beat the other team because its so hard. its not true, with enough hard work and determination anything is possible especially with today's technology. Removing torches i think a company like CA can handle it along with great many other things as well
    "Make haste slowly" Augustus Caesar
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    You have no idea that the feature is hardcoded into the game.

    It is hardcoded. If it wasn't, we would've modded it by now, but there are no mods related to the term "torches" in the workshop that I can find.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • Augustus caesarAugustus caesar Member Registered Users Posts: 81
    edited February 2015
    I gave you a reason why i dont think its hardcoded. There are alot of other things that you should be abl to mod but your not allowed to this is one of them, battle maps are another, Now they released them in atilla its all about what CA wants people to change. We had campaign map modding before and they took it away. Your only guessing saying its hardcoded.
    "Make haste slowly" Augustus Caesar
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    trojan1001 wrote: »
    Who needs torches even.
    With the cool new ground breaking feature of ''siege escalation'' even an army without any siege engines can render the sturdiest of walls useless after a couple of turns :eek:

    :D Anything to avoid an actual assault taking place, eh?

    How long has it been now since the beginning of Rome 2's dev cycle? Shall we say beginning of 2012? That's over 3 years to produce a working siege mechanic that, if I remember rightly, was near enough operational in all games pre-Empire.

    If torches and arrows are being used to burn down gates in the Let'sPlay videos that fills me with no hope they'll have it sorted in time. What on earth is going on?!

    I will routinely auto through sieges - battles which CA freely admits are the most frequent played according to their metrics. Why auto? Because of this insane bug that surely should have been patched up at least a year ago... and now we're being asked to pay for it in a new game? :mad:

    I'm frustrated. And relieved I haven't pre-ordered.
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    It is hardcoded. If it wasn't, we would've modded it by now, but there are no mods related to the term "torches" in the workshop that I can find.

    Can you explain what hardcoded means to this ignorant layman, please? :o

    Does that mean there is no way at all they can alter this particular bit of scripting/behaviour once it's been coded in?

    It would be great if CA could have clarified the technicalities of this issue a while back, to be honest.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    That's exactly what it means.

    hard-code: fix (data or parameters) in a program in such a way that they cannot be altered without modifying the program.

    The program, being the engine itself in this case, which CA can't do to a game that's already released, to my knowledge :P
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

    My Build:
    CPU- i7-4790k Devils Canyon @4.6Ghz
    Cooler: Corsair H110i GT
    RAM: 16GB Corsair Vengeance Pro
    PSU- Corsair 1200i 1200W
    GPU-R9 290X Sapphire Tri-X
    Boot Drive: Intel 530 series 240GB SSD
    Game Drive: Intel 730 series 480GB SSD
    Storage Drive: WD Black 2TB HDD
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    That's exactly what it means.

    hard-code: fix (data or parameters) in a program in such a way that they cannot be altered without modifying the program.

    The program, being the engine itself in this case, which CA can't do to a game that's already released, to my knowledge :P


    Oh God.

    Concerntinople has just become Consternatinople.
  • Gunnerstrip7Gunnerstrip7 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 104
    edited February 2015
    From experience, sieges against bots have been rather easy in TW: Shogun 2 and Rome 2. Attacking is a bit harder sure, but with siege equipment/some kind of world damaging weapon like fire arrows, anyone could take over anything. Also I'm definetly not the best Total War player there is. :P Defending is even easier in my opinion. In Shogun 2 you could defend against a much bigger army with well placed spears and bowmen, with swords acting as back up in case someone got in. On topic, I think there really should be better defensive AI, one would think they'd understand at the very least that a place like Rome or Constantinople is vitally important to their economy. Then again, this is the same AI that frequently starves itself in Rome 2, but I digress. We won't know for sure until the game comes out in a couple weeks.
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  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    From experience, sieges against bots have been rather easy in TW: Shogun 2 and Rome 2. Attacking is a bit harder sure, but with siege equipment/some kind of world damaging weapon like fire arrows, anyone could take over anything. Also I'm definetly not the best Total War player there is. :P Defending is even easier in my opinion. In Shogun 2 you could defend against a much bigger army with well placed spears and bowmen, with swords acting as back up in case someone got in. On topic, I think there really should be better defensive AI, one would think they'd understand at the very least that a place like Rome or Constantinople is vitally important to their economy. Then again, this is the same AI that frequently starves itself in Rome 2, but I digress. We won't know for sure until the game comes out in a couple weeks.

    If you watch the video the AI hasn't even placed its archers on top of the walls to fire down on the troops chucking torches at the gates. Doesn't bode well. What a shame! The actual city and building design is stunning.

    Can I ask, why would CA hardcode something crazy like flaming torches if a) they knew they wouldn't be able to remove and b) they knew Rome 2 was going to act as the base for another major title? Just doesn't make sense to me.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    Fredrin wrote: »
    If you watch the video the AI hasn't even placed its archers on top of the walls to fire down on the troops chucking torches at the gates. Doesn't bode well. What a shame! The actual city and building design is stunning.

    Can I ask, why would CA hardcode something crazy like flaming torches if a) they knew they wouldn't be able to remove and b) they knew Rome 2 was going to act as the base for another major title? Just doesn't make sense to me.

    There's a chance they didn't know ATTILA was coming up, because since it's based on Rome II, they obviously haven't been working on it until after Rome II was released. Too late to change it, but I had really hoped they would have taken them out for ATTILA, since they did some modifications to the engine, but I'm not expert on engines and whatnot, I dunno if they can change it or not, Hardwaremaster would be the person to go to for that :P

    And they did have a valid reason for putting in torches, they thought it would work fine as a last resort, but it seems that many in the community don't want the last resort, as it kills the point in having walls, really.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

    My Build:
    CPU- i7-4790k Devils Canyon @4.6Ghz
    Cooler: Corsair H110i GT
    RAM: 16GB Corsair Vengeance Pro
    PSU- Corsair 1200i 1200W
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    Boot Drive: Intel 530 series 240GB SSD
    Game Drive: Intel 730 series 480GB SSD
    Storage Drive: WD Black 2TB HDD
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonRegistered Users Posts: 3,014
    edited February 2015
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    There's a chance they didn't know ATTILA was coming up, because since it's based on Rome II, they obviously haven't been working on it until after Rome II was released. Too late to change it, but I had really hoped they would have taken them out for ATTILA, since they did some modifications to the engine, but I'm not expert on engines and whatnot, I dunno if they can change it or not, Hardwaremaster would be the person to go to for that :P

    And they did have a valid reason for putting in torches, they thought it would work fine as a last resort, but it seems that many in the community don't want the last resort, as it kills the point in having walls, really.

    My thinking was that if they didn't know that Attila was coming up they would have changed the engine after it was so unpopular for Rome 2. Modification to the engine sounds like these kind of things are not as hardcoded as I was thinking... maybe Hardwaremaster can clarify if he reads this.

    In terms of the last resort, I suppose this is understable if we're given a first resort... and maybe even a second and third before torches become the best option.

    This has punctured my enthusiasm somewhat as Al Bickham (once again) bigged it up in Rally Point 23 quite heavily. Let's just assume all will be well....
  • tat501tat501 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 795
    edited February 2015
    I'm worried about this. There's been no word from CA on it and my feeling (gut) is that its going to be in the game - i.e. torches. Why? Because they are in Rome 2 - and its basically the same game re-skinned with some more features. All those saying its " a whole new game" - well its not - and it should have been released as an expansion so as not to deceive people into thinking it is.

    As for why torches are necessary - the warscape engine cant, and never has been able to work properly with siege equipment. Don't know why. I'm not a programmer but I would guess its something to do wit hthe AI waypoints. Pre-Empire it worked better (on what was a different engine!) - so whilst we've got this engine, we've got torches.

    Also, will people please stop saying "this is way way pre-alpha - the release version is going to be so much better than this". We have no evidence to suggest that the preview build, released in October, is going to be fundamentally different from the release version in February. On past evidence (i.e. Rome 2,) its likely that the release version will be even worse than the alpha.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,127
    edited February 2015
    tat501 wrote: »
    Also, will people please stop saying "this is way way pre-alpha - the release version is going to be so much better than this". We have no evidence to suggest that the preview build, released in October, is going to be fundamentally different from the release version in February. On past evidence (i.e. Rome 2,) its likely that the release version will be even worse than the alpha.

    Uhh past evidence? Did Rome II even have a preview build that was better than the released game? I thought they were as horrible as the release.
    tat501 wrote: »
    All those saying its " a whole new game" - well its not - and it should have been released as an expansion so as not to deceive people into thinking it is.

    No. Nonononononono. pls no </3 If it was released as an expansion, it would be exactly the same as Rome II, something we don't want. There would be no improvements whatsoever, because they had to modify the engine to add in all these new features and such.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

    My Build:
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  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator USAModerators, Tech Moderators, Knights Posts: 7,730
    edited February 2015
    Regarding the build cited in the OP, that is indeed a previewer's build, hence it _is_

    1)From October
    2)Not updated, it is a closed branch

    This does not change the fact that later versions may show use of torches (I have not seen them, but if someone has, please post a link and give us the approximate time the event is visible so we can use it as an example? Thanks!).
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