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Short test with Roman spears

Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior MemberPosts: 1,529Registered Users
edited February 2015 in Total War Eras Multiplayer
Ok, it's pretty obvious that gladiators will kill normal auxilia or similarly tanky spear unit thanks to their high attack stats and lose formation. Those units are nice because they can actually help your legions as kind of shock /flank troops.

Ofc, low armor, lose formation and low number of men in unit means that they are vulnerable to cav charges and missiles, and will die fast if they take the brunt of any attack. This is not such great characteristic for spear unit. I prefer reliable spears (who doesn't)

When countered with gallic heavy horse, most of roman spears die quickly in direct charge except one.

Vigiles - as if they are not there. Low morale, low armor, just get shredded.
Gladiators are performing relatively good and they are second best true anti cav roman unit. Still they die and get defeated ultimately.
Gladiatrixes thanks to their higher armor and just slightly lower attack should do better - in reality and idk why - they die to heavy horse charge at vigiles rate, drastically worse then their male counterparts. Not sure why is that but my bet is bug. I would not recommend taking this units to battle. Shame, they sound cool.
Only unit capable of sustained and victorious combat vs enemy heavy horse is auxilia. They are so much better then all other roman spears when killing horses that it's simply beyond comparison.

And yes, I haven't test triarii for obvious reasons. Nobody in right mind will charge it's horses to triarii, even if you have royal cataprachts : )
Post edited by Thorien_Kell on

Comments

  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    10/10 thread
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  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    vegiles are actually quite good, only 200 and hey are equal to levy freemen, very underestimated unit if you ask me.
    most of the others spears are kinda in the position of "why", why would you take an auxiliary infantry when a hastatii basically can do the same cheaper.
    gladiatrices are not that useful of a unit, i mean sure they have their uses but personally I've never seen a reason they can't act as true anti cav on their own and cost the same as swords, they are bad for their price.
    triarii might have uses due too thier high melee deffence and the fact they can beat any cav unit and any spear around their cost, tho again it's so costly that the question is again "why" when you might as well buy a legion cohort, but i could see some usage.
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  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    10/10 thread
    Constructive, intelligent and elaborate input, as always esteemed colleague. You never fail to deliver ; )
    vegiles are actually quite good, only 200 and hey are equal to levy freemen
    That's what I was wandering. I have to test them to see if levy really perform similarly. Still, what good is anti cav unit that gets defeated by cav, and has no javelins ; )
    Imo auxilia is much better choice. They cost twice as much but they deliver. If horses are daring enough to charge them, they will surely die. Hastati are anti-infantry units. They cannot guard your rear and your archers the way auxilia can. That's why.

    Triarii as other high level spears simply do not justify the cost. But they are very sturdy unit that can hold forever.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Gladiatrices aren't worth it ? 11/10 would downvote for machism. I'm feminist and guys like you are making the world a bad place for modern women to live in. Gladriatrcies are op.
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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    We should stop the auxilia, coming onto our country and stealing our jobs #VigiliesFirst
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  • AKKF32AKKF32 Senior Member Posts: 193Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Clearly, you dont how to use light armored troops. Why the hell would u let them get charged by any cavs that is considered 'heavy' by CA??? Light troops are meant as a support tool to the base of the core army- not as units taking charges (unless its vigiles). Keep them safe from charges, be it inf or cavs- and throw them into cav blobs and watch them decimate cav units. Light troops dont have the armor for accepting charges. No matter what weapon you are holding, u will get rekt by charges big time (unless using pikes in an organized fashion) without any armor.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Can I say then "Clearly you don't know what "test" means" ? : )
    This was made to determine he difference and actual role of armor. I knew approximately what should happen but still outcome was surprise in few aspects. I know how to use light troops that was never the question.

    Question is: is it really worth it? To have supporting troop that cannot withstand charge? In current meta? In lategame cycle charging on depleted units? In light of nearly useless special abilities? You elitist-tournament crew are bit self centered imo and nhf ; ) Do you know how many people /common newbie folks/ look at those unit and then see cool gladiator unit with special abilities and high stats and go for it while in reality good old auxilia would be probably be more useful/flexible/reliable unit to take? This is why I do these kind of tests and make this stupid "10/10" posts, as your buddy diplomat would say.
  • AKKF32AKKF32 Senior Member Posts: 193Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Can I say then "Clearly you don't know what "test" means" ? : )
    This was made to determine he difference and actual role of armor. I knew approximately what should happen but still outcome was surprise in few aspects. I know how to use light troops that was never the question.

    Question is: is it really worth it? To have supporting troop that cannot withstand charge? In current meta? In lategame cycle charging on depleted units? In light of nearly useless special abilities? You elitist-tournament crew are bit self centered imo and nhf ; ) Do you know how many people /common newbie folks/ look at those unit and then see cool gladiator unit with special abilities and high stats and go for it while in reality good old auxilia would be probably be more useful/flexible/reliable unit to take? This is why I do these kind of tests and make this stupid "10/10" posts, as your buddy diplomat would say.
    Dude, calm ur **** boy! jk
    What im trying to say is that the way you are portraying and wording your words on those specific units will leave newbies to think that light armored troops can be used as regular troops while those ones u mentioned cant.
    I never said it was a stupid idea, its not an appropriate test. Would u test someone specialized in business science questions? I highly doubt it. In short, test units on what they SHOULD do not on what u want them to do.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    You are right to a point. Yet, in reality of battlefield conditions units very often have to deter from their designed roles. Yes I do have specialized flanking units and glass cannon units as well, that should not go in melee first but fairly often they have to do whatever is badly needed at that point. And this gets worse as battle progresses to an end phases.

    Being resistant to direct cav charge (of very common and beloved unit of barbarian heavy horse) is such an important feature that you can hardly over estimate. This test made me swap all my gladiator spears in my roman armies with auxilia, and I think other people would probably be more informed to make related decisions on subject as well.

    EDIT
    Speaking of which, my next test will be kill speed of auxilia vs gladiators on engaged cav battle units ; ) Thanks for the idea. Can you guess the results?
  • AKKF32AKKF32 Senior Member Posts: 193Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    You are right to a point. Yet, in reality of battlefield conditions units very often have to deter from their designed roles. Yes I do have specialized flanking units and glass cannon units as well, that should not go in melee first but fairly often they have to do whatever is badly needed at that point. And this gets worse as battle progresses to an end phases.

    Being resistant to direct cav charge (of very common and beloved unit of barbarian heavy horse) is such an important feature that you can hardly over estimate. This test made me swap all my gladiator spears in my roman armies with auxilia, and I think other people would probably be more informed to make related decisions on subject as well.

    EDIT
    Speaking of which, my next test will be kill speed of auxilia vs gladiators on engaged cav battle units ; ) Thanks for the idea. Can you guess the results?

    I would bet my money of the gladiators but knowing CA and considering they have a lot more soldiers in 1 unit, the auxilia might win this.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Non of this matters when cav is weak anyway. All you need is swords and some of your own cav. One or two of the cheapest ones possible to make up numbers is as far as it goes
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  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    I haven't seen a spear unit kill cav as quickly and efficiently as gladiator spearmen for their cost. Probably naked spears, but glad spears have more mass i believe. I personally would take a couple glad spearmen along with a couple aux inf if i was coming up against something like Parthia, keep the gladiator spearmen in the rear of the army, away from missiles, and use the aux inf to maybe absorb missiles. I'm actually pretty surprised by your test because in my experience, auxiliary inf are pretty **** against charges and die very quickly. Glad spears can die pretty quick too but they get really quick kills, especially if u turn on killing spree.

    But yes in general, as with a lot of other tests out there, I think these tests have very limited use. Honestly, the one test that I found useful was the effects of charging + shieldwall, or charging + shieldscreen for spears, and the speed differential of camel catas to eastern catas. Testing most other stuff is inconsequential because removing the tons of variables that take place in a regular battle means your experiment has limited use.
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  • AKKF32AKKF32 Senior Member Posts: 193Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Non of this matters when cav is weak anyway. All you need is swords and some of your own cav. One or two of the cheapest ones possible to make up numbers is as far as it goes
    Are u actually saying cavs are weak??? use them well and they are some deadly ****s! But I do agree if u know ur opponent is gonna field a cav/skirmsish build, u can easily counter with many factions. However, if u dont know ur oppoent's playing style and expect a typical parthian/armenian build, u can easily get rekt big time. Ask poccopacs.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    I would bet my money of the gladiators
    Me too but question is how much and how fast they die in process (sometimes you disengage your cav and leave only spears in) imo if they don't kill more then twice(100%) as fast, it's not good enough.
    Non of this matters when cav is weak anyway.
    In my experience difference between good and very good player is how they use their cav and skirmishers. Anybody with few hrs ow watching YT vids can build efficient core.
    I'm actually pretty surprised by your test because in my experience, auxiliary inf are pretty **** against charges and die very quickly.
    See? : ) I tell you, 1 vs 1 head on auxilia is best by far, Armor, mass, formation and sheer unit size counts here. Gladiators are kind of loosely placed anyway.
    Testing most other stuff is inconsequential because removing the tons of variables that take place in a regular battle means your experiment has limited use.
    Well, I will just say that I've learned very much from maximus chanel where he does tons of very similar experiments like this. I believe that I become better player in understanding mechanics of game. Examples?

    Charge mechanics, bonuses and length (30 secs but declining); how long does unit take to get up when knocked back by cav charge and start fighting back?; how fast camel turns and how fast they run comparing to horses? How much impact damage initial charge of horses has considering their mass, not counting unit weapon damage /attack damage, just the impact? How thin formation compares to thicker in 1v1, which mainline sword unit is best and in which circumstances, optimal skirmishing ranges, unit abilities and how useful are they, potentially bugged abilities, effects of expert charge defense, uphill downhill effects and importance, and lot of other interesting and potentially very useful stuff.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    AKKF32 wrote: »
    Are u actually saying cavs are weak??? use them well and they are some deadly ****s! But I do agree if u know ur opponent is gonna field a cav/skirmsish build, u can easily counter with many factions. However, if u dont know ur oppoent's playing style and expect a typical parthian/armenian build, u can easily get rekt big time. Ask poccopacs.

    Yes I am saying cav is week. How often do you see elite melee cav? Cataphracts are ok, still easily countered by javs. Play games with no rules and 4 cheap cav + swords is probably the strongest
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  • AKKF32AKKF32 Senior Member Posts: 193Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Yes I am saying cav is week. How often do you see elite melee cav? Cataphracts are ok, still easily countered by javs. Play games with no rules and 4 cheap cav + swords is probably the strongest
    idk about u, but ive made great use of mid cavs like cap cavs, noble cavs, baktrian cavs, cataphracts and socii shock cavs from rome. Nomads can easily counter any faction becuase of their cavs. Nomads are way too powerful if used correctly. Obviously not too many know how to play with cavs so nomads arent that common.
    The only problem with cavs is that they are quite espensive compared to a unit from the barbs. They cost 700-800 while cavs, the strength of easterns, cost b/w 750-1000.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Cav is somewhat marginalized by current meta - zerg hordes of very though, highly armored, high mass, high morale reliable infantry that has javelins. They don't impose noteworthy morale shocks, most units fight to bitter end, plus battlefield is often infested with way too cheap and too good levy freemen. That is why cav is seemingly underperforming. Especially expensive cav, it can be destroyed in smallest mismicro and it costs way too much.

    However...

    As battle progresses and units get more depleted cav tends to get more and more important. As a rule, player that has some cav remaining in endgame, usually wins. If you know how to use them properly that is.

    I've just fought a pretty skilled guy with spammy roman army of legionaries (common), my averni were outnumbered and it seemed like end for me when my core collapsed at all sides. But I had 3.5 units of h.horse and he didn't have any cav left. First I've mopped up his archers, while my depleted leftover units managed to held his troops long enough for me to cycle charge his slow legionaries to hell and back, thus winning seemingly lost game.
  • BelisarAUTBelisarAUT Senior Member Posts: 208Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    I promise you cavalry is still very strong, they only reason why they feel kinda weak sometimes is because of the huge amounts of javelins going around.

    Cavalry that is not interrupted by javelins can kill pretty much any infantery with repeated charges with ease.

    Edit.:

    Especially elite cavalry only seems underpowered because a small amount of javelins can already kill so much horses, if the amount and/or damage potential of javelins would be reduced, cavalry would quickly gain it's former status back.
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  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    BelisarAUT wrote: »
    I promise you cavalry is still very strong, they only reason why they feel kinda weak sometimes is because of the huge amounts of javelins going around.

    Cavalry that is not interrupted by javelins can kill pretty much any infantery with repeated charges with ease.

    Edit.:

    Especially elite cavalry only seems underpowered because a small amount of javelins can already kill so much horses, if the amount and/or damage potential of javelins would be reduced, cavalry would quickly gain it's former status back.

    Thats why I think that javelin should be nerfed and removed from some units ;)
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  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited February 2015
    Where were you in last several weeks? Everybody thinks so. We've made several really elaborate propositions and ideas how to trim final stages of rome 2, I feel that we are just few steps away from really good and balanced MP game - but real question is, has CA still will and interest to work on rome2, because in their corporate eyes it's a dead product now more or less. And while people seem more then willing to reward their negligent final product policy, why should they change it?
  • GetaeGetae Junior Member Posts: 23Registered Users
    edited February 2015
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