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Patch 3 changes

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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Melee cav is fine. German factions are not OP Nordics are probably better IMO, well Jutes anyway. Huns are good, romans still need a bit of work, they have nothing in their roster in any department that makes them stand out so no reason to take them. Sassanids still need a bit of work but are ok.

    Please do not complain about strong cav or we get Rome II boring game. Who cares if melee is good on charge? Shock cav is useful so is melee, they both have a role in the game so there is no need to change it. Only reason to nerf melee cav charge would be if a) it made shock cav useless or b) it made infantry useless and both of them are still very useful so don't change it. Lesson is don't let your infantry get charged.

    Finally someone says that the nordics are better. Nordic Horselords is more cost effective then noble horse, plus scares. Sassanids are quite good imo. The nerf hammer on germanics was strong, just the vandals and alani rule but not because of the germanic units. Also the sassanid skirmishers are not that bad as people make them they are just overpriced. Germanic archers have slow reload, the persian ones actually use their ammo in a game. It's still silly that nordics spam heavy melee cav and the game is really straightforward has a very basic meta, which has a big sign saying CAVALRY on it.
  • Voyager IVoyager I Senior Member Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    WRE gets Crossbows for 350, and Armigeri Defensores for 425 are remarkably cost-effective infantry (even without Attacking Testudo). Unfortunately, nothing else they get is particularly good compared to what other factions have access to, Crossbows get countered by the 200 range archers that are already in every game of QB and "cost-effective mid-tier infantry" isn't really enough to build an army around in this game.

    Tweaking Scholae Palatinae from Medium to Heavy would probably make them good instantly but I don't think "make the game feed even harder into the Heavy Melee Cavalry with Spears meta" is what anybody wants.

    Lastly; in a game of 10,000 cost armies, overpriced is the same thing as bad.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    If it is at such a great place at the moment why all tournament rules cap cav? First it was 8, now most of them is 6.

    That and at the end of my post i said its nonsense bringing all cav armies, which by the way was about the place of melee cav without spears in the game atm. Weapon choice or game balance thats a fact.
    I like that cav is strong in the game, but all cav types should have their specific role in battle, they don´t. Therefore its not perfectly balanced and for sure not in a great place. It´s not bad and i have fun plying the game.



    Well, i care, because there is already something called shock cav that is good on the charge.

    Its actually not that hard to understand...Shock cav kills stuff on the charge it should destroy infantry,if its not braced heavy spears, and do a lot of damage to cav, but if it stays unsuported it should loose to cav with anti cav bonus. This one shouldnt do much against infantry but be deadly against shock and anti inf cav, this last one however should be very cost effective against infantry in prolonged melee if it is not spears.
    Or they do this, or they make only one cav roster with units that have different stats.

    TOTALLY AGREE.

    Mele cav can do the job of shock cavalry, because its deadly on the charge. That sucks and make them too usefeull.
    Arhu wrote: »
    6. nerf the alani noble cav

    No, only increase their price. They're perfect stat wise.
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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Some real good suggestions.

    Mine:

    1. To emphasise - regardless of changes incoming - the map pool should be larger and the maps bigger. No point giving us the option for 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 if the maps aren't there for them.
    2. Greater faction variety. Sassanids and Huns are starting to become more viable, but lets look east and south for some more inspiration. This is something SP players can get behind too.
    3. The upcoming create your own map feature (whenever that happens) needs to have CA support. In that the best can be added to the existing map pool for QB as well as custom and lobby. No half measures.
    4. Remove guerilla deployment from the majority of celtic units.
    5. Parthian shot to all bow cavalry.
    6. Parthian shot to all bow cavalry.
    7. Parthian shot to all bow cavalry.
    8. etc
    9. etc
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  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Posts: 192Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Elite swordheerbann should actually have a much higher melee attack because now they are virtually identical in stats to the regular sword heerbann but much more expensive and with much less melee attack (32 vs 50 (and 45 for royal antrutiones)) and their high tier axe units loose their scare abilitiy as well as the immunity to fear, that doesn't make sense.

    A general price drop for infantery across the board and an increase for medium and heavy cav would be cool too

    and pike should either move very slowly in formation or when moving faster get much more disorganized and take much longer to organize
  • vaensonvaenson Member Posts: 45Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    just want to add one example where prize decisions seem bit off to me... :confused:

    hetaireia guards vs huscarls

    Att: 35 < 62
    Dam: 56 = 56
    ap: 16 = 16
    bonInf: 20 = 20
    charge: 70 = 87
    def: 40 > 20
    moral: 54 > 45
    armour: 27 > 25
    health: 135 > 99

    without testing i would say that hetaireia should hold out a little longer, but the result will be kind of a draw or slightly advantage for hetaireia (depending on possible clear charge by huscarls)

    lets say both opponents take 4 each of this unit then the prize difference would be 700. This would be an additional huscarl unit or a ton of chevrons or what ever. For sure it would result in a clear win for the huscarl players independent from skill or anything.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    vaenson wrote: »
    just want to add one example where prize decisions seem bit off to me... :confused:

    hetaireia guards vs huscarls

    Att: 35 < 62
    Dam: 56 = 56
    ap: 16 = 16
    bonInf: 20 = 20
    charge: 70 = 87
    def: 40 > 20
    moral: 54 > 45
    armour: 27 > 25
    health: 135 > 99

    without testing i would say that hetaireia should hold out a little longer, but the result will be kind of a draw or slightly advantage for hetaireia (depending on possible clear charge by huscarls)

    lets say both opponents take 4 each of this unit then the prize difference would be 700. This would be an additional huscarl unit or a ton of chevrons or what ever. For sure it would result in a clear win for the huscarl players independent from skill or anything.

    Generally when you see this discrepancy - the more expensive unit will have passive or active unit abilities that the cheaper, better stats units doesn't.

    Not saying that's the case this time around or that's the right way to go - but that is usually the way of it.
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  • SKill3ssSKill3ss Member Posts: 39Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I'd be very reluctant to see any sweeping changes made to cav.

    The distinction between shock and melee cav is fine as it is. If you are stupid enough to take a head on charge from decent shock cav then your Noble germanic or Alani cav will lose. An elite hunnic lancer build is v powerful for example. Not sure how you could improve this without screwing something else up.

    Noble Alani cav need a price increase.

    I forgot about the franks - fairly distinctive faction with **** infantry. Some buffs here and there would be nice.
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Posts: 192Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    SKill3ss wrote: »
    I'd be very reluctant to see any sweeping changes made to cav.

    The distinction between shock and melee cav is fine as it is. If you are stupid enough to take a head on charge from decent shock cav then your Noble germanic or Alani cav will lose. An elite hunnic lancer build is v powerful for example. Not sure how you could improve this without screwing something else up.

    Noble Alani cav need a price increase.

    I forgot about the franks - fairly distinctive faction with **** infantry. Some buffs here and there would be nice.

    The franks are supposed to rely on their shock cav but shock really doesn't work. Melee cav is better at killing inf than shock because shock dies on disengage, even when the infantery is engaged, melee kills shock. It really is a lot easier to get a lot of kills with melee cav than with shock
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    TOTALLY AGREE.

    Mele cav can do the job of shock cavalry, because its deadly on the charge. That sucks and make them too usefeull.

    Like I said they are not too useful because they don't make any other units useless. People are using shock cav a lot more now and most people have a mix of melee and shock. Changing it is pointless and is just asking for problems because then we end up melee cav not being used.

    Melee and shock are both useful no need to change it.
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  • vaensonvaenson Member Posts: 45Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Generally when you see this discrepancy - the more expensive unit will have passive or active unit abilities that the cheaper, better stats units doesn't.

    Not saying that's the case this time around or that's the right way to go - but that is usually the way of it.

    thats true.... and after some tests (5 huscarls vs 4 hetair) the hetairs do better then expected...so maybe no issue here :)
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Arhu wrote: »
    The franks are supposed to rely on their shock cav but shock really doesn't work. Melee cav is better at killing inf than shock because shock dies on disengage, even when the infantery is engaged, melee kills shock. It really is a lot easier to get a lot of kills with melee cav than with shock

    Frankish shock cav is ****. No 10 bonus, no sassanid tankiness, no extreme charge of burgundians and huns. Their melee inf is also ****. You better of spamming noble horse and freemen. One of the weakest factions if you ask me.
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Posts: 192Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Like I said they are not too useful because they don't make any other units useless. People are using shock cav a lot more now and most people have a mix of melee and shock. Changing it is pointless and is just asking for problems because then we end up melee cav not being used.

    Melee and shock are both useful no need to change it.
    Melee does make shock useless, I just tried with the scara francisca vs noble germanic head on vs noble germanic swordmen, there is virtually no difference and in diamond melee actually did better....
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Arhu wrote: »
    Melee does make shock useless, I just tried with the scara francisca vs noble germanic head on vs noble germanic swordmen, there is virtually no difference and in diamond melee actually did better....

    And I haven't tested but most of the time good shock cav will beat noble Germanic cav 1 on 1
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  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Posts: 192Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    And I haven't tested but most of the time good shock cav will beat noble Germanic cav 1 on 1

    No nobles will win eventually, even after having suffered a charge but it will take a very long time and even is the shock wins they will have too little men left to be effective. I think if you try to cycle instead of letting the melee prolong shock will suffer even more.

    Shock is more expensive too, so it ends up being a waste of money.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6d_phQnS0c
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Arhu wrote: »
    No nobles will win eventually, even after having suffered a charge but it will take a very long time and even is the shock wins they will have too little men left to be effective. I think if you try to cycle instead of letting the melee prolong shock will suffer even more.

    Shock is more expensive too, so it ends up being a waste of money.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6d_phQnS0c

    Again Frankish shockcav is really bad. Sassanid and burgundians will show you what good shock cav is like. The franks got CA'd, they are just garbage. They need a massive buff on their shock cav, especially their scara fransisca. Other examples for ****** overpriced shock cav are royal suebi horse or noble gothic lancers. They may not be factions who rely on those units, but they are just pitiful to watch witch their high price and no potential against cav whatsoever. Scara fransisca should be strong as ****, they were the elite of the elite.
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Posts: 808Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    All Shock (Long Spear cavs ) cav have +10 cav bonus. Also they can charge effecitve to all cavs. Shock Cav (with proper charge)>Mellee spear cav .. Mellee spear cav >Shock cav( with not charge).. Mellee spear cavs arent usefull agains infantry. we should use mellee sword cavs for infantriies. Shock cav should be a bit expensive..
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    4. Remove guerilla deployment from the majority of celtic units.

    Worst idea ever.
    memccann wrote: »
    Like I said they are not too useful because they don't make any other units useless. People are using shock cav a lot more now and most people have a mix of melee and shock. Changing it is pointless and is just asking for problems because then we end up melee cav not being used.

    Melee and shock are both useful no need to change it.

    They do what shock cav do.... It screw the shock cav big time. Yes the shock cav can still do its job, but someone else can do it and be good in mele after that. Mele cavalry shouldnt be a huge thread to infantry on the charge.
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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Worst idea ever.

    I agree. Guerilla deployment on all units was a bad idea. :p
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  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,641Registered Users, Smiley
    edited April 2015
    Again Frankish shockcav is really bad. Sassanid and burgundians will show you what good shock cav is like. The franks got CA'd, they are just garbage. They need a massive buff on their shock cav, especially their scara fransisca. Other examples for ****** overpriced shock cav are royal suebi horse or noble gothic lancers. They may not be factions who rely on those units, but they are just pitiful to watch witch their high price and no potential against cav whatsoever. Scara fransisca should be strong as ****, they were the elite of the elite.

    Well the Scara Francisca do have the elite lance.
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    AggonyDuck wrote: »
    Well the Scara Francisca do have the elite lance.

    So does every sassanid lancer. Gripanvar are nearly as good for 600 and pushtigbhan kick their *** for the same price. The frankish lancers suck, scaras are just the elite of bad lancers. This is by no means fair and does the franks not justice in the slightest. It also makes them very weak as a faction overall.
  • ☢Wraith of Pegasus☢Wraith of Pegasus Member Posts: 88Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    So does every sassanid lancer. Gripanvar are nearly as good for 600 and pushtigbhan kick their *** for the same price. The frankish lancers suck, scaras are just the elite of bad lancers. This is by no means fair and does the franks not justice in the slightest. It also makes them very weak as a faction overall.
    Do sassanid have best infantry in game? or their over expensive 850 archer is even used in battles? no only Armenian slinger their
    over priced spears too what they got is their shock cav and that as it should be. when you nerfed frankish sword and cost effective
    archer then come here and complain.... about their shock cav, faction that even historically has no chance against sassanid in cav department what a joke...
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  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I agree. Guerilla deployment on all units was a bad idea. :p

    lol... The Celts should stay as they are... Mr acting like not understanding what people say... ;)
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Do sassanid have best infantry in game? or their over expensive 850 archer is even used in battles? no only Armenian slinger their
    over priced spears too what they got is their shock cav and that as it should be. when you nerfed frankish sword and cost effective
    archer then come here and complain.... about their shock cav, faction that even historically has no chance against sassanid in cav department what a joke...


    They have neither of those. 2 germanic units save them from being completly useless. Scara francisca is the predeccesor of the frankish knight. The same people who defeated the moors around 750. Scara francisca were the houseguard of karl martell the grandfather of karl the great. The franks had strong heavy cav so had the sassanids with professionalised army.
    That they defeated the moors who were famous cavalryman shows that their lategame unit should be strong, but it isn't. Sassanids got buffed so i think others can be buffed 2. The franks are probably the weakest germanic faction, so pardon me if i ask for some balance. I was not denying the persian superhuman that the sassanids are ;).
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Maybe frank cav needs tweaking, and maybe some other cav to make it perform appropriately for the price but that doesn't mean melee cav should be nerfed as well or that's a big backwards step. Only changes to melee cav should be to make units cost appropriate as well like Nordic Horse Lords beating Noble Germanic is wrong. Yes change balance of certain units but not of the whole category of units.
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  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Not everybody wants to keep it that simple and mediocre as: I just charge my cav in with support and see what happens, no matter what cav it is.
    Why would you not want every cav to have its role?
    If it is ok now, please, please enlighten me and tell me what i use the melee cav with swords and axes for? Since the melee cav with spears does exactly the same thing and kills other cav better.
    And why do we have rules caping cav to 6 in all tournaments if they are not too strong?
    Why elite cav are so cheap that you can bring 6 to 8 of them, if the right thing should be bring max 2 of the best, because of high cost, and surround them with others?
    Super elite cav should be something rare on the battlefield and form the reserve or support of your regular units, never the main force of your army.
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Not everybody wants to keep it that simple and mediocre as: I just charge my cav in with support and see what happens, no matter what cav it is.
    Why would you not want every cav to have its role?
    If it is ok now, please, please enlighten me and tell me what i use the melee cav with swords and axes for? Since the melee cav with spears does exactly the same thing and kills other cav better.
    And why do we have rules caping cav to 6 in all tournaments if they are not too strong?
    Why elite cav are so cheap that you can bring 6 to 8 of them, if the right thing should be bring max 2 of the best, because of high cost, and surround them with others?
    Super elite cav should be something rare on the battlefield and form the reserve or support of your regular units, never the main force of your army.

    EE seemed to have traumatized some people. Still the game is by no means polished and balanced. Certain unit types just don't have a place and that needs to be changed.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I dont think nerfing melee cav is the way to go, but I don't think they should be able to destroy infantry on the charge the way they do right now, that should be only given to shock cavalry. I agree with most that shock cavalry simply doesn't have much of a place in the battlefield which is something that has to be improved.

    Another thing that I would like to see is fewer casualties taken when pulling out of an engagement with cavalry. I think it was close to perfect in Rome 2 after EE, if you had infantry supporting your cavalry, you could pull them out with minimal casualties. This is another thing that ruins shock cav, you need to be able to pull them out of extended combat, but that is just not possible now, they get slaughtered if they try to pull out.
    Some of the situations are ridiculous too, a shock cavalry flattens a unit, but if it tries to pull through while the unit is basically half destroyed, it still takes a RIDICULOUS amount of casualties. So might as well bring a melee cavalry that won't die in extended combat.

    So many factors play in to the melee cavalry's favor, and these exact factors play against shock cavalry, which results in only a couple of units like Royal Lancers or Pushtigban/Grivpanvar cataphracts being brought.

    Also Sassanids are not strong, that's a ridiculous statement. Literally everything in their roster save for the shock cavalry, Dailamite Warriors and the Persian Mounted Warriors are overpriced. Sogdians are terrible, Elite Dailamites are not worth it, Persian Brigade need a slight price reduction, and the archers are just so poor.
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I dont think nerfing melee cav is the way to go, but I don't think they should be able to destroy infantry on the charge the way they do right now, that should be only given to shock cavalry. I agree with most that shock cavalry simply doesn't have much of a place in the battlefield which is something that has to be improved.

    Another thing that I would like to see is fewer casualties taken when pulling out of an engagement with cavalry. I think it was close to perfect in Rome 2 after EE, if you had infantry supporting your cavalry, you could pull them out with minimal casualties. This is another thing that ruins shock cav, you need to be able to pull them out of extended combat, but that is just not possible now, they get slaughtered if they try to pull out.
    Some of the situations are ridiculous too, a shock cavalry flattens a unit, but if it tries to pull through while the unit is basically half destroyed, it still takes a RIDICULOUS amount of casualties. So might as well bring a melee cavalry that won't die in extended combat.

    So many factors play in to the melee cavalry's favor, and these exact factors play against shock cavalry, which results in only a couple of units like Royal Lancers or Pushtigban/Grivpanvar cataphracts being brought.

    Also Sassanids are not strong, that's a ridiculous statement. Literally everything in their roster save for the shock cavalry, Dailamite Warriors and the Persian Mounted Warriors are overpriced. Sogdians are terrible, Elite Dailamites are not worth it, Persian Brigade need a slight price reduction, and the archers are just so poor.

    What do you want for their roster? 400 talent max for melee inf. 600 for spears. 200 range archers with 62 reload compared 42 for ger. archers. they also have better melee stats aswell. The cheapest bow is 240 has much higher melee def, than ger a. faster firing rate. If you give them 200 range with the rate of fire, then it's just not fair. Sassanid shall get very cheap tanky inf and archers plus the already good cav. Why would ever bring something else with those changes and the current mechanics.
    That's just asking for a power faction or op faction. Much of the viabilty of some factions has to do with mechanics and not that their units a bad. Melee cav without spears are useless so are camels. Bows are not good in generell. It's not a problem of the units itself, it's a problem of the overall b#balance of the game. Some factions just happen to have more of it then others.
  • Voyager IVoyager I Senior Member Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Germanic factions randomly getting the longest range archer in the game on a core roster that already has very good cavalry and infantry options is one of the bigger anomalies in the game.

    So yeah, of course the ******g Sassanids with their trashy melee cav and struggling-to-be-mediocre infantry should have better ranged units than 250 cost Germanic Archers, half the faction identity is built around bows and they're obviously supposed to be good at it (especially given that they aren't getting much else besides Shock cav).
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