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Huns lost their horse archers

antiques roadshowantiques roadshow Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 247
edited April 2015 in Multiplayer
the huns absolutely need to find some way to win with horse archers in MP. that's what their known for, and that's what their army is built for. barbarians have infantry and the huns have horse archers. I know not what CA is thinking making Hunnic horse archers useless in this game. who is running the CA balance team?
Post edited by antiques roadshow on
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Comments

  • MautidatesMautidates Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited April 2015
    As soon as they fix charge speed to match the specific weight class of each cavalry unit these Horse Archers will become pretty viable. The Hunnic ones with parthian shot are allready absolutely dominating gods in campaign, just wait for some patches to get multiplayer in a good spot.
    Team WRE
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    the huns absolutely need to find some way to win with horse archers in MP. that's what their known for, and that's what their army is built for. barbarians have infantry and the huns have horse archers. I know not what CA is thinking making Hunnic horse archers useless in this game. who is running the CA balance team?

    I AGREE. The Huns ha should be their best units and be really good units.
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  • MautidatesMautidates Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    I AGREE. The Huns ha should be their best units and be really good units.

    They are allready the very very best. There's just this "one size fits all" (not mine lol :D) cavalry charge thing that makes them a bit meh to use in multiplayer as heavy cavalry dominates in every aspect at the moment. Dominates light cav, skirmish/HA cav, Infantry, 'nuff said.
    Team WRE
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Mautidates wrote: »
    They are allready the very very best. There's just this "one size fits all" (not mine lol :D) that makes them a bit meh to use in multiplayer.

    They arent the best units that the Huns have.
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  • jamreal18jamreal18 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,653
    edited April 2015
    Huns should have the best cavalry as many factions historically moved west to avoid them...
  • MautidatesMautidates Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited April 2015
    jamreal18 wrote: »
    Huns should have the best cavalry as many factions historically moved west to avoid them...

    Nope, only best Horse Archers and Horse Skirmishers. There is a reason why Huns/Magyars/Avars/Turks/Mongols never made any effort to engage the heavy roman/european/ greaeco-byzantine/persian Cavalry up close and relied on hit and run though.
    Team WRE
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Mautidates wrote: »
    Nope, only best Horse Archers and Horse Skirmishers. There is a reason why Huns/Magyars/Avars/Mongols never made any effort to engage the heavy roman/european/persian Cavalry up close and relied on hit and run though.

    The Mongols did have some good heavy cavalry. They still relied on their horse archers but still.
    jamreal18 wrote: »
    Huns should have the best cavalry as many factions historically moved west to avoid them...

    Their horse archers should be WAY MORE deadlier.
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  • MautidatesMautidates Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »

    Their horse archers should be WAY MORE deadlier.

    This is a problem though. If you give them more damage per shot or faster rate of fire + additional ammu you will break them completely for SP. You are allready able to win astounding victories by bringing a fullstack of them (If any other faction would be able to win that way just by spamming one very single unit the forum would drown in OP NREF OMG CA threads). Just outrun and shoot any cav, harass and melee down skirmishers, snipe gen and see the enemy run after some final flaming/whistling combo volleys.

    For Multiplayer, giving them more killing power, well, we would end up with just another winfaction and spam specific unit to win roster, we allready have that by Noble Alani/Noble Germanic Cav dominance. My proposal, implement the different charge speeds for every cavalry weight first, also more different fatigue rates as heavier ones should get tired faster, leading to mediums/heavies being completely unable to ever get a kill against very light/light skirmish cav, and then look how the MP is developing for further tweaks to be made.
    Team WRE
  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,370
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Their horse archers should be WAY MORE deadlier.

    The problem lies more with general game balance instead of hunnic unit stats. Bows do too little damage and all bows with less than 200 range are pointless. If an opponent bring germanic archers they will eat your mounted bowmen alive. The only saving grace of HA's is that they're slightly harder to charge and kill.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    The problem lies more with general game balance instead of hunnic unit stats. Bows do too little damage and all bows with less than 200 range are pointless. If an opponent bring germanic archers they will eat your mounted bowmen alive. The only saving grace of HA's is that they're slightly harder to charge and kill.

    I didnt say how they should be buffed... :rolleyes:

    Buffing the bows in general could make it... but again so many things need to be taken into count.
    Mautidates wrote: »
    This is a problem though. If you give them more damage per shot or faster rate of fire + additional ammu you will break them completely for SP. You are allready able to win astounding victories by bringing a fullstack of them (If any other faction would be able to win that way just by spamming one very single unit the forum would drown in OP NREF OMG CA threads). Just outrun and shoot any cav, harass and melee down skirmishers, snipe gen and see the enemy run after some final flaming/whistling combo volleys.

    For Multiplayer, giving them more killing power, well, we would end up with just another winfaction and spam specific unit to win roster, we allready have that by Noble Alani/Noble Germanic Cav dominance. My proposal, implement the different charge speeds for every cavalry weight first, also more different fatigue rates as heavier ones should get tired faster, leading to mediums/heavies being completely unable to ever get a kill against very light/light skirmish cav, and then look how the MP is developing for further tweaks to be made.

    Dont mention SP in here... It's a banned word like ****
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  • MautidatesMautidates Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 423
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »

    Dont mention SP in here... It's a banned word like ****

    Sry Steppe Bro, as long as CA does`nt make different stats and balancing for..for...dat mode when you play alone/with friend against this AI and MP you will not get rid of taking the former into account. :P
    Team WRE
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Mautidates wrote: »
    Sry Steppe Bro, as long as CA does`nt make different stats and balancing for..for...dat mode when you play alone/with friend against this AI and MP you will not get rid of taking the former into account. :P

    You dont need a balanced game to play **. Just look how hard CA try to balance the game and how much important they consider ** over MP.
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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited April 2015
    the huns absolutely need to find some way to win with horse archers in MP. that's what their known for, and that's what their army is built for. barbarians have infantry and the huns have horse archers. I know not what CA is thinking making Hunnic horse archers useless in this game. who is running the CA balance team?

    Hopefully they are not "fixed" as horse archers with parthian shot are easy mode. It takes no skill to play with them and if they some day become able to kill enough opponents even my 3 years old niece can win anyone with them.

    Horse archer army was practically impossible to beat in S2 if you didnt know to expect one and in S2 they didnt have Parthian shot. With parthian shot and speed 100 it would be ridiculous and only thing you would see in quickbattles would be 20 HAs, as everything else would fail agaisnt any 3 years old playing with them. That would be absolutely terrible game play and would make MP even more dead than it is now.

    Problem is that it is far too easy to use them.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    Hopefully they are not "fixed" as horse archers with parthian shot are easy mode. It takes no skill to play with them and if they some day become able to kill enough opponents even my 3 years old niece can win anyone with them.

    Horse archer army was practically impossible to beat in S2 if you didnt know to expect one and in S2 they didnt have Parthian shot. With parthian shot and speed 100 it would be ridiculous and only thing you would see in quickbattles would be 20 HAs, as everything else would fail agaisnt any 3 years old playing with them. That would be absolutely terrible game play and would make MP even more dead than it is now.

    Problem is that it is far too easy to use them.

    Horse archers are my favorite class of warrior. I dare you to insult them once more.

    It takes way more skills to use them than spamming infantry.

    They should be fixed so we can bring them in multi, if you hate it cause you only play vs noobs in qb and dont want to get spamed, then just join tournaments and play with players that have a little sense of honor at least.

    Dont penalize the true nomad players cause you cant andle the noobs who spam ha (they're actually quite easy to beat if you know what you're doing... wich i dont think you do).
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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Horse archers are my favorite class of warrior. I dare you to insult them once more.

    It takes way more skills to use them than spamming infantry.

    They should be fixed so we can bring them in multi, if you hate it cause you only play vs noobs in qb and dont want to get spamed, then just join tournaments and play with players that have a little sense of honor at least.

    Dont penalize the true nomad players cause you cant andle the noobs who spam ha (they're actually quite easy to beat if you know what you're doing... wich i dont think you do).

    What skill they require? All you need is keep them out from melee which every 3 years old who can hold a mouse can do. They have parthian shot so little micro that was needed in S2 is not needed anymore. I liked to use some HAs in S2 but R2 and Attila it is just easy mode and because of that it is impossible to balance them. Either they are easymode with every 3 years old can use and win against everything else, or they just doesnt have enough ammo to win battles. Line between those outcomes is very thin and easy mode mentioned first would be such huge fail that it would kill a game.

    Current state i can beat them easily. Only HA faction is Huns and their cavalry is weak so Hunnic cav spam will allways fail and that is very good for the game and especially for the MP.

    And i think infantry spam would take quite lot of skill at least if you would like to win any games with that. Maybe could work in the red line corner, but other that that it will allways fail agaisnt any even semi competent player, just like hunnic cav spam will fail now.

    S2 HA spam was cheap tactic but at least it took some micro and failed horribly agaisnt any melee cavalry build. R2 HA spam was cheap tactic that everyone could use and with Parthian shot every 3 years old did have "skill" to control it as it didnt require much. Faced it few times, lost some, win most, tested it with clan mates and against good player only way to force win agaisnt it was similar build. Good thing is that in Attila they cant kill as much so HA spammers are rare.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 820
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    What skill they require? All you need is keep them out from melee which every 3 years old who can hold a mouse can do. They have parthian shot so little micro that was needed in S2 is not needed anymore. I liked to use some HAs in S2 but R2 and Attila it is just easy mode and because of that it is impossible to balance them. Either they are easymode with every 3 years old can use and win against everything else, or they just doesnt have enough ammo to win battles. Line between those outcomes is very thin and easy mode mentioned first would be such huge fail that it would kill a game.

    Current state i can beat them easily. Only HA faction is Huns and their cavalry is weak so Hunnic cav spam will allways fail and that is very good for the game and especially for the MP.

    And i think infantry spam would take quite lot of skill at least if you would like to win any games with that. Maybe could work in the red line corner, but other that that it will allways fail agaisnt any even semi competent player, just like hunnic cav spam will fail now.

    S2 HA spam was cheap tactic but at least it took some micro and failed horribly agaisnt any melee cavalry build. R2 HA spam was cheap tactic that everyone could use and with Parthian shot every 3 years old did have "skill" to control it as it didnt require much. Faced it few times, lost some, win most, tested it with clan mates and against good player only way to force win agaisnt it was similar build. Good thing is that in Attila they cant kill as much so HA spammers are rare.

    Agree, Parthian shot make HA build too easy, they should only reserve for a few elite HA to prevent Player from spamming them.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    Cmon guys, right or wrong please don´t suggest or criticize changes based on what could happen in quick battles. Thats just silly. To get a decent battle there is pure luck. They are filled by noobs and spammers and if you go there you should be ok with those.
    Quick battles will only become decent with a soft cap on the units.
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 192
    edited April 2015
    Cmon guys, right or wrong please don´t suggest or criticize changes based on what could happen in quick battles. They are mostly for noobs and spammers and if you go there you should be ok with those. Thats just silly.

    It could also mess up SP campaigns big time
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    Ignoring the fact that this is the multiplayer thread...How so?
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 192
    edited April 2015
    Ignoring the fact that this is the multiplayer thread...How so?
    Units can have different prices but not different stats in mp and sp, making a big faction's unit more powerful could have a large impact on a campaign because suddenly much more resources are needed to fight this new unit
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Cmon guys, right or wrong please don´t suggest or criticize changes based on what could happen in quick battles. Thats just silly. To get a decent battle there is pure luck. They are filled by noobs and spammers and if you go there you should be ok with those.
    Quick battles will only become decent with a soft cap on the units.

    Noobs dont wanna use skills so they want some units to suck bad.

    I already beat a parthian ha spam with few cata with a pike spam plus peltats in Rome2. Dont get how some people fear ha spam.

    Again spammers will spam the best unit in qb, would it be ha, mele inf or anything else. You cant balance and nerf units because of some noobs.
    Agree, Parthian shot make HA build too easy, they should only reserve for a few elite HA to prevent Player from spamming them.

    You dont know what you're talking about. Build based around HA need alot of skills since you need to manage your amo, avoid the ennemy skirmisher and so on.
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  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 820
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Noobs dont wanna use skills so they want some units to suck bad.

    I already beat a parthian ha spam with few cata with a pike spam plus peltats in Rome2. Dont get how some people fear ha spam.

    Again spammers will spam the best unit in qb, would it be ha, mele inf or anything else. You cant balance and nerf units because of some noobs.



    You dont know what you're talking about. Build based around HA need alot of skills since you need to manage your amo, avoid the ennemy skirmisher and so on.

    Fighting with HA is easy as hell. Run into range, release shot then run away. Those are baby skill. The faster the unit you control comparing to your enemy, the easier the game.

    Slower unit is much more difficult to use and require more adept at the game. With fast unit like cavalry, even when you place it in wrong position, it doesn't take much time to fix it. But infantry would take forever to back into safe place.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Fighting with HA is easy as hell. Run into range, release shot then run away. Those are baby skill. The faster the unit you control comparing to your enemy, the easier the game.

    Slower unit is much more difficult to use and require more adept at the game. With fast unit like cavalry, even when you place it in wrong position, it doesn't take much time to fix it. But infantry would take forever to back into safe place.

    What happen agaisnt a competant players when a noob use HA: Run into range, get destroy by foot skirmishers. gg
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  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 820
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    What happen agaisnt a competant players when a noob use HA: Run into range, get destroy by foot skirmishers. gg

    Samething happen to infantry army. Noob crush their army up with adequate support and screening and get crushed by shock cavs. HA is too noob friendly, all you need to do is click in then click out.

    To use infantry at adept level require much more practice, and noob always mess up with their charge and position their army badly. But with fast Cavs, such mistake become irrelevant.

    There are many great Nomad players that can execute the tactic flawlessly, but the playstyle itself is very basic and noob friendly. It does not require adept skill and knowledge the game.
  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    I already beat a parthian ha spam with few cata with a pike spam plus peltats in Rome2. Dont get how some people fear ha spam.

    So how did you force him to come in to your range? His HAs did outrange your peltast and even after HAs had used all their ammo how did you force him to do suicide agaisnt your pikes? I quess you didnt, your opponent decided to do suicice and lost because of that. He could have just manouvered around your army waithing for openings to shoot backs of flanks of your units and if there would have been none then just manouver bit more until there would have been or time would have run out. With pikes and peltasts you cant force HA build to do anything, he only engages if he chooses to do so and only with his terms. Only way to lose agaisnt that kind of builds with HA army is by doing suicide which you have no way to force him to do.
    Belialxv wrote: »
    You dont know what you're talking about. Build based around HA need alot of skills since you need to manage your amo, avoid the ennemy skirmisher and so on.

    That doesnt take much skill. You have superior mobility. Even if you could only micro one unit at time it would be enough for that and tactically that is not exactly rocket sciense. If someone can use balanced build even semi effectively like winning normal AI with similar 20 unit build, using HA army is walk it the park.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    Tajl wrote: »
    So how did you force him to come in to your range? His HAs did outrange your peltast and even after HAs had used all their ammo how did you force him to do suicide agaisnt your pikes? I quess you didnt, your opponent decided to do suicice and lost because of that. He could have just manouvered around your army waithing for openings to shoot backs of flanks of your units and if there would have been none then just manouver bit more until there would have been or time would have run out. With pikes and peltasts you cant force HA build to do anything, he only engages if he chooses to do so and only with his terms. Only way to lose agaisnt that kind of builds with HA army is by doing suicide which you have no way to force him to do.



    That doesnt take much skill. You have superior mobility. Even if you could only micro one unit at time it would be enough for that and tactically that is not exactly rocket sciense. If someone can use balanced build even semi effectively like winning normal AI with similar 20 unit build, using HA army is walk it the park.

    The dude was awfull, like all the morons who spam ha.

    Nomad style army are the most micro intensive armies, dont know where you take that they dont require skills.

    Listen Tajl and winsunshine, it's not because you guys cant manage to beat a certain of weak build that CA should nerf the units that it require.
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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited April 2015
    If they're going to fix horse archers to make them useful they also need to fix slingers so they don't run out of ammo in 2 minutes.
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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,485
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    If they're going to fix horse archers to make them useful they also need to fix slingers so they don't run out of ammo in 2 minutes.

    And give them greater range.
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  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    The dude was awfull, like all the morons who spam ha.

    Nomad style army are the most micro intensive armies, dont know where you take that they dont require skills.

    Listen Tajl and winsunshine, it's not because you guys cant manage to beat a certain of weak build that CA should nerf the units that it require.

    Generally i agree that it is true that only morons spam HAs and they fail with them because they are morons. But it doesnt mean that good players couldn't spam them and be very succesful with them. Most good players just doesn't do it because it is cheap tactic, would ruin their reputation, wouldn't be any kind of challenge and wouldn't help them to increase their skill as skill is only increased when used and HA spam doesn't take much skill.

    I dont know what is micro intensive for you, but if nomad army is micro intensive for you, you probably have lot of problems with balanced 20 units build when you actually have to be able to react on your opponents plans. Of course that can depend on opponents too and if you only play agaisnt new players it doesn't take much micro either.

    I think it would be quite stupid to balance units based on how new players use them, so balancing HAs based on average useless HA spammer would be quite stupid. Good players would **** everything with them. Balancing should be done based on what good players can do with units.

    And yes I had some problems in R2 agaisnt some HA builds when they were played by players with some skill. And i tested HA builds agaisnt some clanmates and could easily cause problems for them too. (there is reason why practically every tournament have rules restricting how many HAs you can have) With Attila I have no problems with HAs, but this thread is about buffing them and buffing them would be very stupid thing to do. They are just fine like they are now, no need to make easy mode for cheap players.
  • TajlTajl Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 257
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    If they're going to fix horse archers to make them useful they also need to fix slingers so they don't run out of ammo in 2 minutes.

    Cheap slingers are allready maybe the most cost effective ranged units in game....
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