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If you had one scentence to explain what you are least happy about in multiplayer...

WalrusJonesWalrusJones MemberPosts: 84Registered Users
edited May 2015 in Multiplayer
... What would it be? What one thing takes you away from the game? Be it an imbalance, something which simplifies the game too much, or a bad dynamic?

Really, one sentence can be too little, but try to keep it within three.

I am asking this because of I common complaint that I have heard, that I have made too many changes in the content I have made.
- I accept this. So, here I am, asking all of you, if you were only going to make one change, what would it be?

The goal is to compile the fewest changes humanly possible, so that I can make a smallest mod, that could improve the game for the most people.
Something that people could adopt in mass without having to learn too many new, and unique features.

(I don't need to hear about UI, or camera issues, I can fix those without being intrusive at all.)
Post edited by WalrusJones on
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Comments

  • SaltyJohnSaltyJohn Senior Member Posts: 147Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Too many neighsayers, not enough honest footslogging.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    ... What would it be? What one thing takes you away from the game? Be it an imbalance, something which simplifies the game too much, or a bad dynamic?

    Really, one sentence can be too little, but try to keep it within three.

    I am asking this because of I common complaint that I have heard, that I have made too many changes in the content I have made.
    - I accept this. So, here I am, asking all of you, if you were only going to make one change, what would it be?

    The goal is to compile the fewest changes humanly possible, so that I can make a smallest mod, that could improve the game for the most people.
    Something that people could adopt in mass without having to learn too many new, and unique features.

    (I don't need to hear about UI, or camera issues, I can fix those without being intrusive at all.)

    the fact that skirmishers and spears are not strong enough.

    to go in a bit more detail, i'd like greater ammo and range for slingers, 175 like the armenian slingers are good. i'd like buffs on sassanid archers. i'd like parthian shot on 90% of skirmish cavalry.

    i would also like much higher melee attack stats OR melee defense and health statsfor spear infantry. spears should either be like the scavenger mob and kill a lot of cav quickly in a support role, but die to a charge, or like the hoplites of rome 2 and hold forever.
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  • Pine89Pine89 Senior Member Posts: 580Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I agree, skirmishers take ages to kill something.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Skirmishers are useful but they need a SLIGHT buff and reworking. If you make them too strong the you indirectly make pikes really strong as well and a skirmish and pike meta will be more boring than what we have now. Again spears arent that bad at the moment but they need a slight buff as well to make the more durable.

    Tweaks are needed but it shouldn't end up too different from what we have now.
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    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Heavy melee cav is way too strong because:
    They are too cheap;
    They have no counter besides other heavy melee cav because skirmish cav has no parthian shot;
    Their charge speed is the same as for medium and light cav so they can easily catch everybody;
    Spears are still too weak in general.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Salty John wrote: »
    Too many neighsayers, not enough honest footslogging.

    Maybe you could add the answer to his question to that.
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Skirmishers are useful but they need a SLIGHT buff and reworking. If you make them too strong the you indirectly make pikes really strong as well and a skirmish and pike meta will be more boring than what we have now. Again spears arent that bad at the moment but they need a slight buff as well to make the more durable.

    Tweaks are needed but it shouldn't end up too different from what we have now.

    I am thinking of the least intrusive way to rework them.

    Probably altering their trajectories to make close range skirmishers more capable of filling a support role, while leaving ultra-high lethality skirmishers, and long range skirmishers with trajectories which require a more clear line of sight to fire on a target.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Heavy melee cav is way too strong because:
    They are too cheap;
    They have no counter besides other heavy melee cav because skirmish cav has no parthian shot;
    Their charge speed is the same as for medium and light cav so they can easily catch everybody;
    Spears are still too weak in general.

    Cav is countered by infantry when its tied down and melee cav is destroyed by shock cav. At the relative balance of shock cav and melee cav is brilliant. Shock cav is the most powerful and that is countered by missiles and using cheaper units to block charges. Change the speed of cav that's fine but melee cav isn't OP.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Cav is countered by infantry when its tied down and melee cav is destroyed by shock cav. At the relative balance of shock cav and melee cav is brilliant. Shock cav is the most powerful and that is countered by missiles and using cheaper units to block charges. Change the speed of cav that's fine but melee cav isn't OP.

    This was suppose to be a thread in which the people simply list the one thing that bothers them the most in mp unit balance and yet its the second time you reply to a post without even having answered the thread.

    I never said melee cav is op. Elite melee cav is too cheap people shouldn´t be alowed to spam them at will. Changing the speed would almost fix it. But the Elite ones would still be too cheap.
    They can be melted in seconds by good javelinmen but strangely no one brings them because they are the same price as melee cav, which kills everything without distiction. So let´s bring cav.
    I´m going to ask you for the third time now in this forum:
    If the balance is so awesome like you say. Why cav has to be capped in tournaments? I really hope you answer this time.
    memccann wrote: »
    Tweaks are needed but it shouldn't end up too different from what we have now.
    Yeah right...thats because the average 4 rooms in MP lobby suddenly turned into 40. Oh wait...It´s Rome 2 that has 40.
    Not saying i want inf spam to become the meta, i want a balance where nothing has to be caped, or better, all has to be capped equally and all types of builds have a chance to work if played properly.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Why is cav capped?

    Russian tourneys made it 6 cav right from the start before people even played the game much as a gut reaction. People got used to 6 cav and don't like to play with other rules because they just instantly say that cav is OP and stuff without trying different situations. When the rules are max 8 you see people take 6, 7 or 8. If cav was OP they would take 8 every time.

    If you look at quick battle where there are no rules and people can use whatever they want I rarely see more than 8 cav. That's how you can tell cav isn't op, when people have no restrictions at all and don't spam it. Cav is important and powerful but it is just a part of an army. Infantry and skirmishers are also important. If you want you can play me and spam cav I will be happy to show you.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • Voyager IVoyager I Senior Member Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    8 Nordic Horse Lords = Not Spam, thanks for the clarification Matt.

    Also Shock Cav only beats Melee Cav if they break them on the charge, otherwise they get trapped in a melee slowly dying as they have wiffle bats for hand weapons.
  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Posts: 458Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I for one wouldn't mind a price increase to elite melee cav like maybe, nordic horse lords 800, noble germanics 800. Stuff like this. This game is really boring and repetitive because all you see is elite cav.

    I hate to say but Rome 2 did cav better in the way that cheaper cav was useful.
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  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesPosts: 1,627Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Factions dont have enough personality or just dont have the good one.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


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  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I for one wouldn't mind a price increase to elite melee cav like maybe, nordic horse lords 800, noble germanics 800. Stuff like this. This game is really boring and repetitive because all you see is elite cav.

    I hate to say but Rome 2 did cav better in the way that cheaper cav was useful.

    While price increases are actually highly invasive to do, making inexpensive/non-super elite/general purpose cavalry useful isn't.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Agree with Walrus, the heavy spear cavs need big nerf, may be not directly though. The 1st thing should be nerf is impact damage.

    I think sword/axe cavalry need a buff, 10 bonus vs infantry for Sword/Axe would be nice.

    Spear infantry need more HP to withstand charge, and maybe more bonus vs cavalry.
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Agree with Walrus, the heavy spear cavs need big nerf, may be not directly though. The 1st thing should be nerf is impact damage.

    I think sword/axe cavalry need a buff, 10 bonus vs infantry for Sword/Axe would be nice.

    Spear infantry need more HP to withstand charge, and maybe more bonus vs cavalry.

    Axe cavalry actually have 10 net bonus versus infantry, 5 from KV rules (Which spear cavalry also gets,) and 5 from their axes. Axe cavalries marginally superior performance against infantry isn't noticeable because of the fact that many units will be seeing 1/3-1/2 of their men loosing 2/3 of their health to impact damage. Resulting in a good chunk of an infantry unit only being able to survive one hit from a spear anyhow.

    Then we add the charge bonus to the cavalries damage and melee attack for the first 30 seconds... And you see why most infantry units react in the exact same way to a cavalries attacks if charged. Cavalry on the other hand, have enough hitpoints for a higher base damage to have an effect.

    Fixing impacts would do quite a bit to improve diversity.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Axe cavalry actually have 10 net bonus versus infantry, 5 from KV rules (Which spear cavalry also gets,) and 5 from their axes. Axe cavalries marginally superior performance against infantry isn't noticeable because of the fact that many units will be seeing 1/3-1/2 of their men loosing 2/3 of their health to impact damage. Resulting in a good chunk of an infantry unit only being able to survive one hit from a spear anyhow.

    Then we add the charge bonus to the cavalries damage and melee attack for the first 30 seconds... And you see why most infantry units react in the exact same way to a cavalries attacks if charged. Cavalry on the other hand, have enough hitpoints for a higher base damage to have an effect.

    Fixing impacts would do quite a bit to improve diversity.

    Since you gonna remove the impact damage, the axe/sword cavalry will become significantly weaker against infantry, more bonus vs infantry must be added to keep their current performance vs infantry.
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Not remove, simply do things that will change it to be more fair, and counterable.

    As for changing the effectiveness of cavalry weapons, no distinction is made by the game between cavalry weapons and infantry weapons.
    I would have to change hundreds of entries. If I want to change this, and I have done this once already, in a different mod.

    The goal here is to make something minimally invasive, that is easy to pick up with knowledge of vanilla.
    Why? We need something that is minimally invasive (So people are not afraid of adopting it due to word of mouth,) but gives people renewed hope, at least until the next patch.

    For the past week, the competitive lobbies have been in the single digits. This is the closest I have seen any melee combat total war game get to the death of its multiplayer.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Why is cav capped?

    Russian tourneys made it 6 cav right from the start before people even played the game much as a gut reaction.

    Nope. The first tournament played in Attila was The Flash hosted by Maximus right after the game released. He won spamming cav.10, 12 in some Battles. Thats because the next tournaments caped cav not because of some instinct.
    memccann wrote: »
    People got used to 6 cav and don't like to play with other rules because they just instantly say that cav is OP and stuff without trying different situations. When the rules are max 8 you see people take 6, 7 or 8. If cav was OP they would take 8 every time.

    Again, nope. The reason they bring 6 or 7 is because of the max 6 of the same rule and the faction they are playing only has one elite melee cav unit. All other cav are so useless that they prefer bringing less.
    memccann wrote: »
    If you look at quick battle where there are no rules and people can use whatever they want I rarely see more than 8 cav. That's how you can tell cav isn't op, when people have no restrictions at all and don't spam it.

    Indeed in quick battles you see mostly 8 to 10 cav. Almost all of them Elite and that´s my point. You shouldn´t be able to spam elite cav. If you bring more than 4 than your army should become non viable. Beeing able to bring only two elite and 4 to 6 mid tier cav would naturally balance most of the other units. I have nothing against the cav heavy builds in Attila. Its the heavy elite cav builds that are ruining the game for so many players.
    memccann wrote: »
    Cav is important and powerful but it is just a part of an army. Infantry and skirmishers are also important.

    Completely agree. Thats why heavy elite cav shouldn´t be the main part of an army. You can win a battle in Attila without bringing skirmishers, as long as cav is not caped. You can win a battle without bringing infantry, as long as cav is not caped. But you can not win a battle without bringing cav, without boxing.
    memccann wrote: »
    If you want you can play me and spam cav I will be happy to show you.
    I hate spamming cav, or anything else for the matter.

    And please answer the question to the thread.
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    There was another I remember where the cap was 10. That was ..... Insane...

    It was practically just spear cavalry, with the least expensive tank infantry as second line units in every battle I saw. It was beyond predictable.
    Uncapped, public multiplayer doesn't reflect true competitive play a majority of time.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The goal here is to make something minimally invasive, that is easy to pick up with knowledge of vanilla.
    Why? We need something that is minimally invasive (So people are not afraid of adopting it due to word of mouth,) but gives people renewed hope, at least until the next patch.

    I like that thinking.
    For the past week, the competitive lobbies have been in the single digits. This is the closest I have seen any melee combat total war game get to the death of its multiplayer.

    Sad but true. I hope that doesn´t make CA to pay even less atention to MP.
  • winsunshinewinsunshine Senior Member Posts: 820Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Not remove, simply do things that will change it to be more fair, and counterable.

    As for changing the effectiveness of cavalry weapons, no distinction is made by the game between cavalry weapons and infantry weapons.
    I would have to change hundreds of entries. If I want to change this, and I have done this once already, in a different mod.

    The goal here is to make something minimally invasive, that is easy to pick up with knowledge of vanilla.
    Why? We need something that is minimally invasive (So people are not afraid of adopting it due to word of mouth,) but gives people renewed hope, at least until the next patch.

    For the past week, the competitive lobbies have been in the single digits. This is the closest I have seen any melee combat total war game get to the death of its multiplayer.

    There is nothing counterable in term of impact damage. As long as the impact damage nets you more kill than the number of lost during the disengage, people will keep spamming spear cavalry, since it is the easiest way to win cav fight and own the late game.

    The only way to stop such deathly circle is lower impact damage of cavalry to the point it is no longer benefit for non-shock cavalry to circle charge. Spear cavs can win for you the cavalry fight, but they can no longer carries the late game. Only by then, you can have some balance between spear cavalry and shock cavalry. However, that still leave sword/axe cavalry out of the scene, and they will be more useless than ever. No cavalry currently can win in prolong melee. That is why axe/sword need more bonus vs infantry.

    Forcing cavalry to stay in melee longer is the only way to make elite foot spearmen have some use.

    The way you change the charge speed is not minimal invasive, it is massive. And pretty much everyone will have to study the rooster like new. But it is good for the game, and I'm welcome it.

    Current state of the game leaves half of the melee cavalry rooster useless.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Nope. The first tournament played in Attila was The Flash hosted by Maximus right after the game released. He won spamming cav.10, 12 in some Battles. Thats because the next tournaments caped cav not because of some instinct.

    Again, nope. The reason they bring 6 or 7 is because of the max 6 of the same rule and the faction they are playing only has one elite melee cav unit. All other cav are so useless that they prefer bringing less.

    Indeed in quick battles you see mostly 8 to 10 cav. Almost all of them Elite and that´s my point. You shouldn´t be able to spam elite cav. If you bring more than 4 than your army should become non viable. Beeing able to bring only two elite and 4 to 6 mid tier cav would naturally balance most of the other units. I have nothing against the cav heavy builds in Attila. Its the heavy elite cav builds that are ruining the game for so many players.

    Completely agree. Thats why heavy elite cav shouldn´t be the main part of an army. You can win a battle in Attila without bringing skirmishers, as long as cav is not caped. You can win a battle without bringing infantry, as long as cav is not caped. But you can not win a battle without bringing cav, without boxing.


    I hate spamming cav, or anything else for the matter.

    And please answer the question to the thread.

    I said I rarely see more than 8 and then you go 'indeed you mostly see 8 to 10' as if you're agreeing with me. First of all that is a lie and second if you take 10 cav and its all elite you will definitely lose because you can't afford any decent infantry. Its more likely that someone takes a mixture of elite and mid tier cav. I see people in tournaments bring Alani Horsemen, the ones that cost 550 in 6 cav rules. If you think that only elite cav is good than you just don't know how to use other cav. My counter to huns who bring elite heavy shock cav is ERE. Huns are very strong with their cav and uars. I use Equites Promoti and Cataphracts and the reason it works is because of the infantry support and the 6 slingers. I have beaten a few clan players on quick battle with that and guess what? It has 8 cav in total, including the general.

    I actually held a flash tournament where cav wasn't capped would you like to see the final? https://youtu.be/OxOfdhvstPA wow that's funny I beat someone who brought way more cav than me using archers.

    Of course its possible to win with 10+ cav but a build with that much cav is not the strongest. Use that much cav against a good player and you will lose.
    Voyager I wrote: »
    8 Nordic Horse Lords = Not Spam, thanks for the clarification Matt.

    Also Shock Cav only beats Melee Cav if they break them on the charge, otherwise they get trapped in a melee slowly dying as they have wiffle bats for hand weapons.

    If you had played 1 tournament before you would know that nearly every single one has max 6 of the same unit. 8 cav actually adds balance because Jutes are OP in 6 cav max rules due to horse lords and huscarls. They are still viable when its max 8 but you have to play well to stop enemy cav.

    Its good that shock cav loses if they don't get the charge. It means they're powerful but they take skill to use and aren't indestructible. The relative balance between melee and shock cav is great.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Games on more than 6 cav/ 7 cav get even reduced meta possibility due to cav being totally op vs some units.
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  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    to reiterate, and bring this thread back to its point.

    spear weapon buff, give 30 bonus spears to more (read >70%) of spear units, and even the cheapest spears should have the 20 bonus spears.

    remove 30 bonus spears from cavalry, and since you said price increases will be more intrusive, then reduce the effect of impact damage.

    increase bonus vs infantry for swords/axe cavalry.

    increase base reload rates for all skirmishers, and reduce the friendly fire penalties for, at least, javelinmen.

    up the bonus vs mounted and bonus vs infantry for elephants to however high it needs to go so they can finally wreck something.

    balance skirmishers across factions, by increasing the range of all elite tier archers and slingers, and give sassanids the skirmish buff they need, while slightly reducing the germanic archer strength, maybe decrease range to 150. increase ammo for all slingers, or increase the range of the **** tier slingers.

    i wonder if something like this thread is more effective or less effective than something like what reptilicus used to make, babysitting CA through the balance process until they implemented a quarter of what he suggested (however I felt about his suggestions personally :P )
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  • HallorranHallorran Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The current state of 2 handed Axemen, as the meta is evolving its quite clear that having them on your flanks backing up cav avoiding missiles is the way forward.

    They need a nerf tbh +20 v infantry, frenzy and in some cases rapid advance with incredible base stats are insane, they kill most other infantry without breaking sweat and used with cav are devasting.

    Bonus v infantry needs dropping to +10 for a start. Or even plus 5.
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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    2 handed axes should be more expensive
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  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Fixing weapon attributes is easy when I don't have to make new weapons.

    Would it be fair to say that everyone is nice and tired of two handed axe and khanda spam?
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The problem isn't spam, problem is shock inf to verstaile and efficient. But i can bet no group of competitives players will join a mod wich is totally subjectiv, so frankly you should do what u want with your mod and not trying to resolve every balance problems.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

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  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The goal is not to fix every problem, but fix the more core problems, while there is some subjective issues that are coming up...

    What I am noting down are things that could be causes to large problem chains, and thinking of how to fix them in the most minimally invasive way possible.

    A reccuring problem that is fueling fires for both the shock infantry annoyed group, and the cavalry annoyed group.
    Clearly, I am going to fix this, even if saying exactly what the fix would be would cause people to debate over what exactly it would do (I know what it would do, I have tested it, seriously.)

    I would only announce a change in particular because I assume it is something that would be highly popular on its own.

    So, really, having people announce what crops up as core issues to the game to them is me looking for brainstorming materials.
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