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Why 6 cav rules suck

DiplomattDiplomatt Senior MemberPreston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
edited April 2015 in Multiplayer
The results from cup of nations 2015

1st Stradomski - Jutes
2nd William - Jutes
3rd Klayton - Jutes

Do I need to say anymore?
[WOLF]Diplomatt

Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
Post edited by Diplomatt on
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Comments

  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited April 2015
    I think the problem is more that nordic horslords are the second best heavymelee cav and huscarls are op aswell. 2h axes are way to strong. Elite melee cav is way to cheap. Result is obvious.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 402
    edited April 2015
    6 cav excluding gen rules are better.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 192
    edited April 2015
    I think the problem is more that nordic horslords are the second best heavymelee cav and huscarls are op aswell. 2h axes are way to strong. Elite melee cav is way to cheap. Result is obvious.

    2h should have an incredible strong attack, they could cleave man and horse in half! But the real problem is, is that elite units are relatively way to cheap as are cav and again melee cav is too powerful against infantry.

    And than take for instance the franks, their best (devensive) infantry is the royal anstrutiones, which costs 775 compared to 750 for the royal huscarls but even upgraded to triple gold they get hacked away in seconds by huscarls. That's wrong but also if the battles were slower other units would have some chance to respond
  • HannibalBarkasHannibalBarkas Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,860
    edited April 2015
    If the balancing weren't so bad ...
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited April 2015
    Arhu wrote: »
    2h should have an incredible strong attack, they could cleave man and horse in half! But the real problem is, is that elite units are relatively way to cheap as are cav and again melee cav is too powerful against infantry.

    And than take for instance the franks, their best (devensive) infantry is the royal anstrutiones, which costs 775 compared to 750 for the royal huscarls but even upgraded to triple gold they get hacked away in seconds by huscarls. That's wrong but also if the battles were slower other units would have some chance to respond


    The damage of 2h axes is ok. But wielding a two handed weapon slows you down your swings are slower and therefor easier to dodge. That's why the melee attack should be lowered, it's to high the bonus vs inf is enough but the high melee attack makes it to strong against cav. Franks inf is ****, and their shock cav is overpriced. 3rd best shock cav selection, but none is really that cost effective. Scara Fransisca is **** for the price.
  • ArhuArhu Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 192
    edited April 2015
    The damage of 2h axes is ok. But wielding a two handed weapon slows you down your swings are slower and therefor easier to dodge. That's why the melee attack should be lowered, it's to high the bonus vs inf is enough but the high melee attack makes it to strong against cav. Franks inf is ****, and their shock cav is overpriced. 3rd best shock cav selection, but none is really that cost effective. Scara Fransisca is **** for the price.

    their roster is pretty good for sp, since freemen are really cheap and decent for their price and the franks get a melee attack bonus when a unit suffers losses but for MP where elite units which perform much better are available for a little bit more the cost they aren't very good
  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 458
    edited April 2015
    Arhu wrote: »
    2h should have an incredible strong attack, they could cleave man and horse in half! But the real problem is, is that elite units are relatively way to cheap as are cav and again melee cav is too powerful against infantry.

    And than take for instance the franks, their best (devensive) infantry is the royal anstrutiones, which costs 775 compared to 750 for the royal huscarls but even upgraded to triple gold they get hacked away in seconds by huscarls. That's wrong but also if the battles were slower other units would have some chance to respond

    I would have no problem seeing Huscarls at maybe 875-925 range and Royals up to 975. I have no idea why ****** Thracian oathsworn are 1050, but a unit as versatile as Burgundian axes and Huscarls are in the 600s-700s range. I have just stopped playing MP right now SP is plenty of fun, and Europa Universalis has been calling my name as well :) I am just sick and tired of 6 royal lancers with 6 axes, or 6 horse lords and 6 Huscarls. I've played in 2 tournaments so far and they've just been boring with the lack of variety, but meh might just be me.
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  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 402
    edited April 2015
    I would have no problem seeing Huscarls at maybe 875-925 range and Royals up to 975. I have no idea why ****** Thracian oathsworn are 1050, but a unit as versatile as Burgundian axes and Huscarls are in the 600s-700s range. I have just stopped playing MP right now SP is plenty of fun, and Europa Universalis has been calling my name as well :) I am just sick and tired of 6 royal lancers with 6 axes, or 6 horse lords and 6 Huscarls. I've played in 2 tournaments so far and they've just been boring with the lack of variety, but meh might just be me.

    it definitely isn't you. but tournaments in any TW game aren't shining examples of varying tactics and strategies. Not even changing environments affects that, the Fear the Forest tournament I recently held is proof. Made rules of min 2 guerrila units and all the maps were heavily forested, but the meta still reigned supreme.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 405
    edited April 2015
    it definitely isn't you. but tournaments in any TW game aren't shining examples of varying tactics and strategies. Not even changing environments affects that, the Fear the Forest tournament I recently held is proof. Made rules of min 2 guerrila units and all the maps were heavily forested, but the meta still reigned supreme.

    Attila is particulary bad. The game is really unbalanced and the common shared units are better then faction specific ones. That's why you see the same over and over again. It doesn't help either that cav ***** on everything, but costs the same or less than anything else.
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    The results from cup of nations 2015

    1st Stradomski - Jutes
    2nd William - Jutes
    3rd Klayton - Jutes

    Do I need to say anymore?
    Ahaha . I said that winner player would be Jutes Stromdovski or Willima Kazankat :) not Alans ..
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited April 2015
    Ahaha . I said that winner player would be Jutes Stromdovski or Willima Kazankat :) not Alans ..
    8 cav max ,4 same unit be more balanced. I dont last patch 2. Sasanids and Huns have +1 cav limit. They havent foot general.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    How about a Tournament limiting heavy cav (melee an shock) to max 2 and nothing else.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited April 2015
    How about a Tournament limiting heavy cav (melee an shock) to max 2 and nothing else.
    do you wanna see jutes become even more OP?
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    They would be able to bring only 2 nordic horse lords and most of the factions have better medium and light cav than the nordsmen. Without the horse lords, even light shock cav would be bad for the huscarls.
    And its not like someone uses their heavy cav tho charge the 2 handed axes anyway.
    It should be worth a try.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 937
    edited April 2015
    Agartha limited heavy cav to 4 in their turney, have to say it was pretty good.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,485
    edited April 2015
    Pamina wrote: »
    Agartha limited heavy cav to 4 in their turney, have to say it was pretty good.

    Didn't take part but did play a few matches with their rules. It changes things.
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  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 458
    edited April 2015
    it definitely isn't you. but tournaments in any TW game aren't shining examples of varying tactics and strategies. Not even changing environments affects that, the Fear the Forest tournament I recently held is proof. Made rules of min 2 guerrila units and all the maps were heavily forested, but the meta still reigned supreme.

    Yeah only time I do have fun is playing WRE and Sassinids. I love those two and it's so fun to pwn some Jute builds with 6 equites promoti backed by 2 cataphractarii to rear charge Huscarls, and 2-3 elite palatina to just murder ****. :D
    "Who I am is not important, my message is." ~ Darth Reven
    MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL!!!! https://www.youtube.com/user/teubel98/feed
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Registered Users Posts: 84
    edited April 2015
    8 cav max ,4 same unit be more balanced. I dont last patch 2. Sasanids and Huns have +1 cav limit. They havent foot general.

    I personally prefer odd limits, because you will usually see players make very unconventional choices to preserve symmetry, and thus, ease of using the build, meanwhile, others who think they can manage asymmetry will make harder to use builds, but potentially profitable ones.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    I personally prefer odd limits, because you will usually see players make very unconventional choices to preserve symmetry, and thus, ease of using the build, meanwhile, others who think they can manage asymmetry will make harder to use builds, but potentially profitable ones.

    For me, the best rules are the ones that only put limits to bringing the same unit, say 4 to 6. When no more than this rule is needed, you know you have a balanced game in your hands.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 402
    edited April 2015
    Pamina wrote: »
    Agartha limited heavy cav to 4 in their turney, have to say it was pretty good.

    yeah, it was quite an interesting rule set. got rekt by godansmen + horse hewers on the flanks in my game though :_(

    that's what you get for taking sassanids in a 4 heavy cav max tournament, blade.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 937
    edited April 2015

    that's what you get for taking sassanids in a 4 heavy cav max tournament, blade.

    You should Watch last game of the final then, the shashannid guy won.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • SKill3ssSKill3ss Member Registered Users Posts: 39
    edited April 2015
    The agartha tournament was fun but that rule set heavily favoured the Jutes who could bring a **** tonne of axes (max four same) and some decent heavy and medium cav
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited April 2015
    For me, the best rules are the ones that only put limits to bringing the same unit, say 4 to 6. When no more than this rule is needed, you know you have a balanced game in your hands.
    Being Full cav + missle army = nice spam .
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited April 2015
    Being Full cav + missle army = nice spam .
    because bringing a skirmish army is so much easier than a melee rush, oh wait you don't have the talent to skirmish.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 937
    edited April 2015
    Jutes was balanced because they have no decent middle cav.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 402
    edited April 2015
    Pamina wrote: »
    You should Watch last game of the final then, the shashannid guy won.

    ****, i'm sure prince has recorded it, looking forward to watching it :)
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
    www.youtube.com/wolftotalwar
  • CagataiKhanCagataiKhan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 808
    edited April 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    because bringing a skirmish army is so much easier than a melee rush, oh wait you don't have the talent to skirmish.
    I played mostly rush in Attila. I like balanced army in Shogun 2 .I pick every unit type. gun,Bow,Horse bow -gun ,pike etc..
    I played diffrent style in Rome 2 's diffrent patches. I am not great player.
    1)Cav(main destruction power) + infantry + a ele/chariot rush tactic (bactria-pontus -parthia) ,
    2) Infantry + 6 paltast(main destructin power)+ some supported cavs (bactria -pontus-macedonia)
    3) cavs + horse archer + missile foots(main power) (Parthia)
    4) Nomad tacitic with max 6 horse archer (Massagatea)
    5) Phalanxes :) (Sparta ,egypt ,macedonia ,epirus)
    6) inf rush ,+support some cavs and archers (Suebi, Odrys other Barbarians)
    7) balanced army
    I think ArmenianKing is good at missile foots . Danko is best in horse archer.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 228
    edited April 2015
    Being Full cav + missle army = nice spam .

    If this build could beat anything, it wouldn´t be balanced and i was talking about rules for a perfectly balanced game.
  • BelialxvBelialxv Senior Member SteppesRegistered Users Posts: 1,627
    edited April 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    because bringing a skirmish army is so much easier than a melee rush, oh wait you don't have the talent to skirmish.

    Why are we some mean towards each other in this community?

    We already have a bad time making CA listen to us. If we start Bing each other we're F.
    ajz9uoslnqoi.jpg


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  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,737
    edited April 2015
    Belialxv wrote: »
    Why are we some mean towards each other in this community?

    We already have a bad time making CA listen to us. If we start Bing each other we're F.
    i know but sometimes i get really annoyed when people say stuff they quite frankly don't understand, and lets be honest most here disagree with caga anyways, i doubt my disagreement with him will give us less credibility. though i will emit bad wording, i still think it is talking out of ones *** to say skirmishing is a problem (as in it is OP) when every tournament and every half descend player will tell you it's not.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=TJpmII-kxuM
    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
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