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Fixing Heavy Cavalry

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  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    No. They shouldn't cost the same, there is already a pricing issue with them, that's why noble alani cav are always banned or restricted in tournaments and that's one of the reasons that Nordic factions are so strong with 6 cav rules.

    So following your logic there is a price issue with all the cav in the game since they are all caped. I´m very happy you finally agree with me.

    Noble Alani are now 700 with the calculated price increase they would cost between 970 - 990. Put them at 990 and the Noble Germanics at 970 if you want. Therefore the price increase for the noble Alani would be 290 and for the Noble Germanic 220 a very nice difference of price increase, which again, follows your logic. Do the same for the nordic horse lords and there you have it. No more cav cap, more dynamic builds and gameplay.

    Did you play a game using this pricing for the cav units to see if it makes sense? I would very much like to have your feedback regarding that.
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    So following your logic there is a price issue with all the cav in the game since they are all caped. I´m very happy you finally agree with me.

    Noble Alani are now 700 with the calculated price increase they would cost between 970 - 990. Put them at 990 and the Noble Germanics at 970 if you want. Therefore the price increase for the noble Alani would be 290 and for the Noble Germanic 220 a very nice difference of price increase, which again, follows your logic. Do the same for the nordic horse lords and there you have it. No more cav cap, more dynamic builds and gameplay.

    Did you play a game using this pricing for the cav units to see if it makes sense? I would very much like to have your feedback regarding that.

    Again no I haven't stop asking me and I never said increasing cav prices was a bad thing its just you only have a 20 difference which isn't enough. Then a noble Germanic with 2 XP should beat noble alani.

    Increasing cav MIGHT be alright but you have to reprice other units as well or you can just create more problems. Only changing cav won't work IMO.
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 932Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Increasing cav MIGHT be alright but you have to reprice other units as well or you can just create more problems. Only changing cav won't work IMO.

    Indeed, but this price increase i way too big for one go.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • Voyager IVoyager I Senior Member Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Balancing by spreadsheets is a really ******g bad idea. You're making a basically arbitrary assignment of value to statistics that don't translate directly into gameplay and then comparing those number against each other in a vacuum. While it's true that better units are going to come out with bigger numbers, this level of abstraction will inevitably miss the forest for the trees.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    Again no I haven't stop asking me and I never said increasing cav prices was a bad thing its just you only have a 20 difference which isn't enough. Then a noble Germanic with 2 XP should beat noble alani.

    This one beats the other and therefore it should be more expensive is way too simple thinking about the game. You can´t ignore the fact that noble germanics have better melee atack, better melee defence and the steady ability. In theory they should do a bit better than alani nobles against any unit that is not cav and last more against missiles. That´s why you have to be very carefull comparing only how they do against each other.
    memccann wrote: »
    Increasing cav MIGHT be alright but you have to reprice other units as well or you can just create more problems. Only changing cav won't work IMO.

    As far as we all know major changes all around the roster brings chaos and disorder. Because if something gets unbalanced you wont know the source. I don´t know if only changing heavy cav will solve all problems i suspect not, but i know it changes gameplay to a more diversified dynamic because i´ve tested it.
    Balncing has to be done piece by piece.

    Ok...i´m not asking here, just thinking out loud: "Did he try to play some games with one of his friends using this prices to see how they work? It would be so nice to have some feedback"
    Voyager I wrote: »
    Balancing by spreadsheets is a really ******g bad idea. You're making a basically arbitrary assignment of value to statistics that don't translate directly into gameplay and then comparing those number against each other in a vacuum. While it's true that better units are going to come out with bigger numbers, this level of abstraction will inevitably miss the forest for the trees.

    Nah. It´s way more complicated than that. Assignment is not arbitrary and trees are looked up to, one by one, always considering the forest they form.
    I just started this work, so im not sure it will be perfect. But the numbers that are coming out do make sense and do improve gameplay, balance and dynamics.
  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Posts: 458Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I rather enjoy the idea of having price changes instead of stat changes. That is what ****ed me off so much about Rome 2 was CA would just screw with stats almost every time, patches 9,15,16, being the exceptions.

    I do wonder if these cav price changes are to much, but then again I haven't tried them myself. When I do have some down time, however, I will certainly try and get some guys from Sith to play with these prices to see how we feel about it.

    I won't judge your pricing atm because I have yet to see how it actually affects the game. Anyway, have a pleasant day.
    "Who I am is not important, my message is." ~ Darth Reven
    MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL!!!! https://www.youtube.com/user/teubel98/feed
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Posts: 84Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The most important thing to note is this: As the price of elite cavalry increases, the value of the heavy spear will decrease.

    Of course, this is mostly a change we will see affecting cavalry.... I mean, spear infantry gets used so rarely anyhow.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I rather enjoy the idea of having price changes instead of stat changes. That is what ****ed me off so much about Rome 2 was CA would just screw with stats almost every time, patches 9,15,16, being the exceptions.

    I do wonder if these cav price changes are to much, but then again I haven't tried them myself. When I do have some down time, however, I will certainly try and get some guys from Sith to play with these prices to see how we feel about it.

    I won't judge your pricing atm because I have yet to see how it actually affects the game. Anyway, have a pleasant day.

    You don´t even have to play a battle. When building your army you already can realize the changes its going to bring.
  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Posts: 458Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/155103-New-TW-Esque-title?p=1371583#post1371583
    You don´t even have to play a battle. When building your army you already can realize the changes its going to bring.

    In a way yes, in another way no. You really can't fathom the full change something can have until you experience it.
    "Who I am is not important, my message is." ~ Darth Reven
    MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL!!!! https://www.youtube.com/user/teubel98/feed
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    That is 100% correct, but when building an army you can already see that the options increase and the meta with elite cav + 2h axes is not viable anymore.
    If antoher Meta emerges from those changes you can, of course, only find out with lots of playing and testing.
  • |Sith|DesertFox|Sith|DesertFox Senior Member Posts: 458Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    That is 100% correct, but when building an army you can already see that the options increase and the meta with elite cav + 2h axes is not viable anymore.
    If antoher Meta emerges from those changes you can, of course, only find out with lots of playing and testing.

    Yeah, I really want to like this game but its balancing is just lazy atm. The fatigue system is also really annoying. The whole game in and of itself is just boring. Hopefully patch 3 hits in the next 2-3 weeks or I'm just going to abandon this and play EU IV all the time. :D
    "Who I am is not important, my message is." ~ Darth Reven
    MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL!!!! https://www.youtube.com/user/teubel98/feed
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