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How to beat two handed axe spam as romans?

ComesTarkinComesTarkin Junior MemberPosts: 21Registered Users
edited April 2015 in Multiplayer
As title says, I really like ERE as faction after Tagmata nerf, it's versitaile , balanced (although it still needs few buffs and fixes like attacking testudo.), i'm doing more or less ok when i'm playing them , i don't always win but i don't always loose. However what really grinds my gears is this new 2 handed axe + cav spam.

I tried countering with hetaireia and tagmata but they are just too expensive to be cost effective, nordic player will always have more cav and axes in that situation. Shock cav doesn't seem to work either, you need to get like super clean charge into axes, and it's almost impossible when they are in the blob with cav ;/ Do you guys have any ideas how to beat 2 handed axes as romans without noob tactics like pikebox ? :(
:cool:
Post edited by ComesTarkin on
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Comments

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,675Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    I don't play multiplayer but can't you just kite them to death with Mounted Sagitarii ?
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Rewan wrote: »
    I don't play multiplayer but can't you just kite them to death with Mounted Sagitarii ?

    spoken like a true campaign player
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  • ComesTarkinComesTarkin Junior Member Posts: 21Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Rewan wrote: »
    I don't play multiplayer but can't you just kite them to death with Mounted Sagitarii ?

    Nah, that wouldn't be good idea since they have no partian shot and thanks to not differenating cavalary weight they will be easily caught by nordic horse lords/ any heavy cav :( + they just don't pack a punch, by the time they get let's say 20 kills half of my left flank will be dead. ;/
    :cool:
  • HannibalBarkasHannibalBarkas Senior Member Posts: 2,860Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Purely using my fantasy here as I don't play a lot of MP atm but how about pike spam + cav spam?

    Something like 7 pikes, 4 Tagmata and 4 Clibanarii? Or 7 pikes, 2 Legio, 4 Tagmata, 2 Cataphractii and 2 Scholae Palatinae? Or to look less spammy 6 pikes, 2 Protectores Domestici, 3 Sagitarii, 4 Tagmata, 2 Cataphractii and 2 Scholae Palatinae.

    You'd definitely have the superior cavalry and without missiles or cav support your opponent will have a hard time defending his axemen against Alexandrian tactics of pikes and rear charges.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Bring Burgundians.

    lol
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  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Bring xbows, slingers the maximum cav u can, cheap inf and hetairia. That's ur best bet.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

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  • RewanRewan Senior Member Posts: 1,675Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    spoken like a true campaign player

    Thx.


    Anyways, if horse archers don't fill the bill, I guess it kinda forces you to have enough cav to overpower their cav and then rely in hammer+anvil tactic paying special care not to start the infantery fight before your cav won...
    I don't know.
  • ComesTarkinComesTarkin Junior Member Posts: 21Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Purely using my fantasy here as I don't play a lot of MP atm but how about pike spam + cav spam?

    Something like 7 pikes, 4 Tagmata and 4 Clibanarii? Or 7 pikes, 2 Legio, 4 Tagmata, 2 Cataphractii and 2 Scholae Palatinae? Or to look less spammy 6 pikes, 2 Protectores Domestici, 3 Sagitarii, 4 Tagmata, 2 Cataphractii and 2 Scholae Palatinae.

    You'd definitely have the superior cavalry and without missiles or cav support your opponent will have a hard time defending his axemen against Alexandrian tactics of pikes and rear charges.

    Thought about that , but in my opinion the only way for pikes to work is pikebox with hetaireia and javelinmen and I would like to avoid that since it's not very nice to oponent (not that bringing axe spam vs ere is. :P )

    The problem with tactic you propose is that he won't let his axemen leave his cav, they will be always nearby to support, and once my cav and his cav + axes go into that giant blob of love pikes won't be able to support me, and it's going to happen because guy would have to be an idiot to charge in front of pikes, he will just split and go around my pikes straight for cav.

    Additionaly I don't think have clear cav advantage against 6 golden chevron horse lords. :(


    @Theokles

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUJa4MoYnHE

    @Pamina

    The problem is I don't have money for all that :( Let's say I do something entirely ridiculous:

    Palatina general
    8 Equites promoti (I won't be able to look at myself in the mirror but it's still better than pikebox.)
    2 xbows
    1 lanciarii seniores
    4 hetaireia / 3 hetaireia + 2 contarii

    That leaves my center wide open + enemy has more axes and better cav. Nevertheless gonna try it on weekend, maybe this will actually work :D

    @Rewan

    The problem here is that axe support cav, they are right behind them, there is no infantry vs infantry engagement, cav clashes and axes follow right into the blob. They have huge meele attack and damage which makes my cav melt.
    :cool:
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    What about pushing up pike as support for your cav? Engage his cav, line up your pike - and when he closes in with axes, pull back your cav through your pike. His forces will follow if they have an attack order - and then they die.

    You can also use your pike to cut him off from supporting one of his flanks. You take your line of say 4-5 pike and retreat it or push it forward at an angle, essentially forming a wall, cutting one of your opponent's flanks off. Use that time to overwhelm his other flank by engaging his cav and rear charging his engaged axes. Finish them off and you can do the same to the other flank. I also suggest you take a couple each of crossbows or slingers to kill/delay his cavalry/ and or huscarls.
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  • SnipingAchillesSnipingAchilles Senior Member BelgiumPosts: 289Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    They are killed easily by anything that is not infantry related.
    AggonyAchilles on Steam.

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  • Voyager IVoyager I Senior Member Posts: 122Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    They are killed easily by anything that is not infantry related.

    Yes, but assuming there are cav limits in place he's going to have just as many of those as you.
  • jonasneejonasnee Senior Member Posts: 1,737Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Voyager I wrote: »
    Yes, but assuming there are cav limits in place he's going to have just as many of those as you.
    missiles? also ERE has their own axemen.
    put your actions where your mouth is.
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    Total war is best when it is kept simple and not overly complex
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    jonasnee wrote: »
    missiles? also ERE has their own axemen.

    it always boils down to if your opponent makes mistakes. no real chance otherwise. Het guards not as cost-effective as huscarls or nordic axe warriors, and can't spam as many of them. Tagmata not as good as Nordic HL. Pikes are always limited to 4 in tournaments so you can't bring the 6 pikes needed to hold up the axes and cover enough ground to be effective (imo).

    Funditores work very well at killing huscarls, but they have too little ammo. No point bringing crossbows because their reload rates are so low that they won't be very useful against a rush army where the axes clean up the flanks in a minute or so, before the crossbows let loose more than 2-3 volleys.

    Finally, ERE has no real cost-effective low/mid tier sword inf like Hirdmen or Nordic Warrior that could potentially shieldwall/attacking testudo and win an inf fight while having good enough melee attack stats to help out in a cav battle effectively. Protectores Domestici are the only ones with attacking testudo IIRC but they have very poor melee attack stats.
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  • Pine89Pine89 Senior Member Posts: 580Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    imo without a well tailored ruleset the ERE is the second worst faction, surpassed only by the WRE hands down.

    oh wait, I forgot the celts :p
  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    ERE are a good hun counter and huns can beat any Germanic faction and most Nordics
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    ERE and WRE is missing:

    - cost effective 2h axes
    - 700 talent elite cav
    - cost effective midtier cav
    - cheap offensive melee inf

    What they got:

    - tanky spears
    - tanky melee inf with a buggy formation
    - sweg

    Sad, i would prefer strong romans over so called "viking forefathers" anyday. Now constant dlc faction spam, balance 9/10.
  • blademaster3090blademaster3090 Senior Member Posts: 402Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    ERE and WRE is missing:

    - cost effective 2h axes
    - 700 talent elite cav
    - cost effective midtier cav
    - cheap offensive melee inf

    What they got:

    - tanky spears
    - tanky melee inf with a buggy formation
    - sweg

    Sad, i would prefer strong romans over so called "viking forefathers" anyday. Now constant dlc faction spam, balance 9/10.

    their midtier cav is badass tho.
    Check out my youtube channel! Mainly Rome 2 Multiplayer tactics, tutorials and replays :)
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  • Y@$!N[email protected]$!N Junior Member Posts: 2Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Slingers or javelinmen. Axe inf generally has very low armour.

    If you win the cav battle then it's extremely easy to finish them off.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    ERE are a good hun counter and huns can beat any Germanic faction and most Nordics

    nope
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Elite Agathrysi warriors have same stats for 50 extra cost. Take 6 of those, 6 noble alani cav, an alani general and 2 sarmatian spears (war dogs) and pray for mistakes.
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Elite Agathrysi warriors have same stats for 50 extra cost. Take 6 of those, 6 noble alani cav, an alani general and 2 sarmatian spears (war dogs) and pray for mistakes.

    But they don't have 2 weaponrange and 20 bonus vs inf. The falx units are actually fairly balanced, the 2h axes are just op and way better than any other shock inf. I imagine a huscarl, nordic. h. lord combo being stronger then n. alani. elite agarthirsy combo.
  • Pine89Pine89 Senior Member Posts: 580Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    But they don't have 2 weaponrange and 20 bonus vs inf. The falx units are actually fairly balanced, the 2h axes are just op and way better than any other shock inf. I imagine a huscarl, nordic. h. lord combo being stronger then n. alani. elite agarthirsy combo.

    indeed, also to put things into perspective, elite palatina have pretty much the same stats of uar warriors, except that they cost 100 more, don't have a bonus vs infantry and don't scare.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    2 hand and uars are op.
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  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Posts: 1,485Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Huscarls wreck uars.

    That's how OP they are.
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Huscarls wreck uars.

    That's how OP they are.

    Because DLC=OP!
  • SutherlandSutherland Junior Member Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    My opinion is that huscarls should have 10 bonus vs inf, and 700 cost. Royal one - 775.
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    Sutherland wrote: »
    My opinion is that huscarls should have 10 bonus vs inf, and 700 cost. Royal one - 775.

    The bonus vs inf is not the problem, it's the high charge high melee damage and high melee attack. I would lower the melee attack significantly to nerf them against cav. Their strength against inf can remain. Huscarls and royal huscarls should cost around 800/850, other 2h axes a bit more expensive 2. I don't see why the heiteira guard should be more expensive this is actually a fairly balanced unit, so the huscarls should have a similar price.
  • HallorranHallorran Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The bonus vs inf is not the problem, it's the high charge high melee damage and high melee attack. I would lower the melee attack significantly to nerf them against cav. Their strength against inf can remain. Huscarls and royal huscarls should cost around 800/850, other 2h axes a bit more expensive 2. I don't see why the heiteira guard should be more expensive this is actually a fairly balanced unit, so the huscarls should have a similar price.

    They need both they are too strong against both infantry and cav. But the issue is not just with Huscarls its with all 2 handed axe. Pricing is also an issue though its not balanced between the 2handed axe factions.
    AggonySpoon, MizuSpoon
  • SutherlandSutherland Junior Member Posts: 20Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    The bonus vs inf is not the problem, it's the high charge high melee damage and high melee attack. I would lower the melee attack significantly to nerf them against cav. Their strength against inf can remain. Huscarls and royal huscarls should cost around 800/850, other 2h axes a bit more expensive 2. I don't see why the heiteira guard should be more expensive this is actually a fairly balanced unit, so the huscarls should have a similar price.

    Perhaps it would be better to make melee attack lower, may be weapon damage, may be bonus vs inf. But not charge, because its not so easy to make clear charge against infantry units of skilled enemy. He can interrupt them.
    As i saw - armigeri defencores can deal quite good damage to elite agathyrs warriors in prolonged melee with interruptred charge,but it doesnt work with huscarls totaly. Elite agathyrsy and huscarls have almost the same stats, but huscarls have +20 bonus vs Inf, and elite agathyrsy +0. So these is an example.
  • obelixthegreatobelixthegreat Senior Member Posts: 228Registered Users
    edited April 2015
    An interesting way to balance inf would be to decrease melee dammage and attack for all units. As counterpart give them better and more distinct bonuses.
    The higher the dammage and attack, the lower the bonus.

    I didn´t give a great thought to the stats, its just an example at how units could be more specialized in killing specific units, making them all more usefull.
    Spears would also be more usefull in this case.
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