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Dribbs' Guide to Diplomatic Relations

DribbsDribbs Senior MemberPosts: 1,285Registered Users
edited July 2011 in Total War: SHOGUN 2
This table ... [link] ... lists the factors in detail.

Overview

Diplomacy in Shogun 2 is based on a numerical system of 'relationship factors'. A factor can grow or decay over time and has a positve or negative value that reflects it's significance in the campaign. Each clan uses these factors to govern its diplomatic relationship with other clans it has already encountered.

You can view these factors as a tooltip by bringing up the Diplomacy Panel (default shortcut key 'K') and hovering your mouse over the diplomatic relation column in the encountered clans section. See screenshot below ...

diplomacy.jpg


Diplomatic Relations

Following each end turn iteration, the prevailing positive and negative factors are aggregated. The resultant total is applied to a sliding scale to determine the diplomatic relationship with other clans. The approximate scores are shown in brackets below :-
Very friendly (+50 and higher)
Friendly (+1 to +49)
Indifferent (-49 to 0)
Unfriendly (-50 to -99)
Hostile (-100 or lower)
The diplomatic relations between two clans will directly influence their willingness (or not) trade, ally, etc. You can improve diplomatic relationships by entering into negotiations and using the build tools to make a proposal. Similarly, an AI clan may approach you with a diplomatic proposal which you can accept, reject or modify.

There are many negotiation options available to you but always consider a clans power, prosperity and integrity ratings as these will influence the outcome and the longevity of any agreement. Also consider that successfully negotiating with one clan can have an adverse effect on other clans attitude to you, especially if they are hostile to the clan you have negotiated with.


Factors In Detail

Each diplomatic factor comprises :-
  • An initial value - which depends on the factors siginifance, the campaign turn number, and the overall strength/prosperity of each clan
  • A trend - determining whether the factor will grow or decay each turn
  • A step value - the rate at which the growth or decay takes place per turn (some factors are static)
While some factors have a minimum or maximum value, most seem to be unlimited.


List of Factors

This table ... [link] ... lists the factors with the corresponding trend, step and initial values (the latter are approximations). The table columns are sortable. Alternatively, the factors are shown below in an alphabetic list format :-

Alliance broken
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -38 and -40

Alliances were not honoured
Trend: (+) Step: 1 Initial value between -27 and -57
Triggered by breaking an alliance with the enemy of an AI clan

Alliance with an enemy clan
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -2 and -27
Can be triggered by an AI clan going to war with you

An enemy of my enemy is my friend
Trend: (-) Step: 1
Initial value +15
Decays over time

Backstabber! Attacked by forces given passage
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value -28
Can be tiggered even when AI declares war

Clan commands respect
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value +50
Shogunal Deputy trait

Clan is not respected
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value -50
Peer contempt trait (lasts six turns)

Daimyo honour
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value +10 +20 +30 +40
Differs depending on clan and stage of game

Dishonouring treaties
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -5 to -48
Can be tiggered even when AI declares war

Gifts appreciated
Trend: (-) Step: 1
Initial value variable
Approx +1 for each 75 koku (maxes out at +100)

Hostages
Trend: (-) Step: 5
Initial value +100

Hostile agent actions
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -44 and -50
Can be triggered by a failed bribe

Marriage between clans
Trend: (-) Step: 2
Initial value +100
Stops decaying at +20

Marriage with hostile clan
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value -32

Mastery of the arts
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value +10 (+30) +20 (+40 +60)
Chi Tea Ceremony +10 and Chi Calligraphy +20. Values can be higher depending on clans and game length (possibly bugged)

Military alliance
Trend: (-) Step: 3
Initial value either +70 or +100
Differs depending on clan and stage of game

Past friendship
Trend: (-) Step: 2
Initial value between +15 and +35
Differs depending on clan and stage of game

Past grievances
Trend: (+) Step: 2
Initial value between -45 and -65
Differs depending on clan and stage of game

Realm divide
Trend: (-) Step: 5
Initial value between -15 and -20
Depending on difficulty level? Max -200

Religious differences
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value between -10 and -25
Depends on alliances and stage of game

Revolts Incited
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -10 and -12

Sabotage attempt
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -4 and -18
Depending on stage of game

Same religion
Trend: Static Step: N/A
Initial value +10

Territorial expansion
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -6 and -12
Approx -6 per additional province held

Trade agreement
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between +15 and +25
Seems to max out at +60

Trade agreement broken
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value -18
Can be tiggered even when AI declares war

Threats of attack
Trend: (+) Step: 2
Initial value between -32 and -54
Can be triggered by allies or vassals threatening another AI player

Unreliable ally
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -23 and -44
Triggered by some clans but not all

War!
Trend: (-) Step: 1 whilst at war
Trend: (+) Step: 2 once peace brokered having been at war
Initial value between -70 and -142
Depends on previous contact

War declared on a friendly clan
Trend: (+) Step: 1
Initial value between -11 and -13


Disclaimers & Notes

1) This article is based on a Takeda campaign on very hard difficulty. Values may be different for other clans and/or other difficulty settings. The system is fairly difficult to reverse engineer as some of the factors appear to be percentage based and/or formula based. This post is intended as a straw man to get things started.
2) Let me know if there are any errors or omissions.
3) Green denotes a positive effect and red denotes a negative effect.
4) (+) denotes a growth trend and (-) denotes a decay trend.
Post edited by Dribbs on
«1

Comments

  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    This table ... [link] ... lists the factors with the corresponding trend, step and initial values (the latter are approximations).
  • 7horin7horin Member Posts: 31Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Nice work! The link to the table was a bit difficult to find while glancing over. Might want to increase the size of that text some because the table was very useful!
  • YamfunYamfun Member Posts: 87Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Does it mean anything?

    I once had a very friendly allies Takeda, who moved armies next to my empty cities, and then declared war on me.
    Those backstabbing *******s.
  • GuardianOfBlindGuardianOfBlind Senior Member Posts: 947Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I am unsure about "Hostile agent actions" step. I think it depends on realtionships, cause with allied clans the penalty goes away completely in like 3 turns. With +1 change it would take 50 turns
  • THC-Shogun[Dr.MightySnakeTHC-Shogun[Dr.MightySnake Senior Member Posts: 270Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Now I understand how diplomatic + , - works .

    Dribbs,thanks for making it simple.
    -My Honorable threads :D
    The solution to decrease Long loading times(and loading in general)
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    Chief Admiral of ホンダの海軍 Honda's Navy
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  • xdarkcodexxdarkcodex Senior Member Posts: 119Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Good job with the guide. Didn't know about the backstabber one.
  • KessenKessen Senior Member Posts: 382Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I had something strange happen with regard to hostile agent actions. Not sure if it's a bug. Here goes:

    I had a vassal with a metsuke in his castle. While moving my ninja past his province, the metsuke successfully apprehended my ninja, causing the -50 diplomatic relations penalty. Since I was going to move many agents past his province to help him out against a bigger enemy clan, I decided to assassinate the pesky metsuke to prevent further interference with my ninjas and deterioration in diplomatic relations. Strangely, after the metsuke was killed, the -50 penalty became -4.
  • mr_orbitmr_orbit Senior Member Posts: 415Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    great guide, mate :-) very good work
    What would you have me do, Caesar?
  • BatavusBatavus Senior Member Posts: 457Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Not very good with figures myself. I just use trial and error, which can be very interesting at times. And fun too.

    The Shoni were at war with the poor Sagara. I decided to invade the Shoni's northern province because they would be occupied in the south. First I succesfully caused unrest with my monk in a province just below the province I had targeted.

    Anyway, I captured the northern province with my son leading the army. When I entered the Shoni province next to this northern one, the Shoni sent a big army full of samurai units and after a valiant stand on a hill, most of my army was destroyed. My son escaped the battlefield but he must have been caught while trying to leave the province.
    But his sacrifice was not in vain: the victorious Shoni army was also in ruins and when I sent reinforcements the next turn, I opened up negotiations. To my surprise, when I looked at the odds for simple, "Request Peace," the chances were given as High!

    So then I started trying out different combinations (money, military access, etc.) and finally we got a deal not only to make peace but also to become allies! So now I could turn my attention to the Yamana, who are much closer to my Chosokabe home island and I only have to keep a strong force in my conquered Shoni province because it's the only way into the Japanese mainland for the Shoni, apart from going by sea.
    No darn samurai ever won a war by dying honourably. He won it by letting the other poor samurai die honoroubly.

    Napoleon Total War: France Vs. Oldenburg NEW
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=talR3UZGt8M

    Shogun 2 Total War: Chaos At Sea
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPkLPJbAr8
  • KessenKessen Senior Member Posts: 382Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Batavus wrote: »
    Not very good with figures myself. I just use trial and error, which can be very interesting at times. And fun too.

    The Shoni were at war with the poor Sagara. I decided to invade the Shoni's northern province because they would be occupied in the south. First I succesfully caused unrest with my monk in a province just below the province I had targeted.

    Anyway, I captured the northern province with my son leading the army. When I entered the Shoni province next to this northern one, the Shoni sent a big army full of samurai units and after a valiant stand on a hill, most of my army was destroyed. My son escaped the battlefield but he must have been caught while trying to leave the province.
    But his sacrifice was not in vain: the victorious Shoni army was also in ruins and when I sent reinforcements the next turn, I opened up negotiations. To my surprise, when I looked at the odds for simple, "Request Peace," the chances were given as High!

    So then I started trying out different combinations (money, military access, etc.) and finally we got a deal not only to make peace but also to become allies! So now I could turn my attention to the Yamana, who are much closer to my Chosokabe home island and I only have to keep a strong force in my conquered Shoni province because it's the only way into the Japanese mainland for the Shoni, apart from going by sea.


    Well, you gotta be careful. The Shoni's integrity is Treacherous. When they start amassing troops and sneaking them into the woods near your province, that's when you know round 2 is revving up.
  • BatavusBatavus Senior Member Posts: 457Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Thanks for the advice. :D
    It's just that I was so tainted by the first STW's attempt at diplomacy that I basically never trust anyone. Edit: I mean, I trust no faction but your advice really is logical and unavoidable. Fortunately, the one province that I took from the Shoni is my only border with them so I keep a full stack army and building up a second stack. And when I have the opportunity, I will attack again. Anyway, I can only win this campaign if I conquer 13 provinces in the next 7 years.
    No darn samurai ever won a war by dying honourably. He won it by letting the other poor samurai die honoroubly.

    Napoleon Total War: France Vs. Oldenburg NEW
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=talR3UZGt8M

    Shogun 2 Total War: Chaos At Sea
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRPkLPJbAr8
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Yeah, you need to take into account a clans integrity, prosperity, power etc as these add to the mix.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I'm not sure if this is worth noting but this is what happened.

    I had given military access to another clan. The treaty expired while the other clan had an army inside one of my provinces, so the game teleported that army out of my province. On the next turn, I noticed that I got the dishonoring treaties flag that wasn't there before.
  • GuardianOfBlindGuardianOfBlind Senior Member Posts: 947Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I'm not sure if this is worth noting but this is what happened.

    I had given military access to another clan. The treaty expired while the other clan had an army inside one of my provinces, so the game teleported that army out of my province. On the next turn, I noticed that I got the dishonoring treaties flag that wasn't there before.

    I got something similar, but not same, cause was with enemy clan. They landed invasion force on Shikoku island, so I made a smart plan - make peace with them for 1 turn so that their army gets ported back to mainland, giving me few turns to prepare.

    What I got for this was dishonouring treaties penalty with my allies! My allies who were not involved in all this at all...

    Diplomacy is still a mystery for me even after 3 campaigns.
  • BinJuiceBinJuice Junior Member Posts: 26Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Thanks for this guide. It definitely helps to better understand the diplomacy system.
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    I'm going to refine the diplomatic standing thresholds when I get chance, as I've seem some rogue values. Playing a Hojo campaign at the moment.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Btw dribbs, thanks for putting this together. Diplomacy is definitely one of the more annoying black boxes of this game. :)
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    War!
    Trend: (-) Step: 1 whilst at war
    Trend: (+) Step: 2 once peace brokered having been at war
    Initial value between -70 and -142
    Depends on previous contact
  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 7,365Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    Very nice, very useful, much thanks!
    "Whoever desires is always poor" - Claudian
  • xploringxploring Junior Member Posts: 23Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    This is really useful for managing diplomacy. Thanks. But I don't understand some of it, are there some limits missing? Like gift and alliance. From the numbers, it seems to imply your relationship will deteriorate at a faster rate the more gifts you make. And with alliance, after as time goes by, it seems like I would wish not to have made that alliance because the ally will continue hate you more and more, similar to Realm Divide.
    16kwghv.png
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
    xploring wrote: »
    This is really useful for managing diplomacy. Thanks. But I don't understand some of it, are there some limits missing? Like gift and alliance. From the numbers, it seems to imply your relationship will deteriorate at a faster rate the more gifts you make. And with alliance, after as time goes by, it seems like I would wish not to have made that alliance because the ally will continue hate you more and more, similar to Realm Divide.
    Gifts seem to grant you +1 for every 75 koku (or so) spent. But this maxes out at 100, so it's pointless giving any more if you've reached the 100 mark. And yes, the benefit of an Alliance fades over time. So it's worth thinking about delaying allliances until you are close to Realm Divide.
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited April 2011
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,285Registered Users
    edited May 2011
    New one added to the list ...

    Revolts Incited
    Trend: (+) Step: 1
    Initial value between -10 and -12
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited May 2011
    I couldn't find the original post.

    To declare war and avoid the global "Dishonoring Treaties" penalty, you must wait 5 turns after you cancel a military alliance or military access.
  • MrSuplexMrSuplex Member Posts: 140Registered Users
    edited May 2011
    I still have no idea what the hell Dishonoring Treaties actually means. I'm in a campaign where I never once declared war on anyone, except in one instance where a clan I had no previous relations with declared war on my vassal. Being the honorable daimyo that I am, I declared war on the aggressor in response to protect my vassal. This is the one and only time I declared war, and I have Dishonoring Treaties with some other clans.

    It makes no sense to me at all...
  • Shadow_WarriorShadow_Warrior Senior Member Posts: 240Registered Users
    edited May 2011
    Diplomacy is a two way street, just because you have not dishonored treaties does not mean the clan in question has not and thus it is reflected in your relationship with them.
    The Art of War is in ensuring the enemy know they have no chance of Victory.
  • MrSuplexMrSuplex Member Posts: 140Registered Users
    edited May 2011
    That makes no sense at all...the score is only their feelings toward me. If they are the ones that have dishonored treaties why would they have a negative modifier toward me for that?
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