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Ugh, Medieval II's Campaign is the worst in the series.

Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior MemberOak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
edited September 2015 in Rants and Raves
So im playing as Poland, and in my conquests, I am careful to only take land owned by Rebels, and only taking other factions land in cases of retaking land lost to them.

I fight on and off wars with Denmark and HRE, as I slowly conquer parts of modern Western Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, all land owned by rebels. Then a major war breaks out with Denmark and HRE attacking me without provocation. Denmark and HRE one side and me by myself.

I would be fighting with all my fury but for some reason that I cannot figure out, one turn I just jumped from around 7500 Florins to Negative 12,000 florins. I cannot figure out why this happened, and I have been unable to obtain any new units at all, I cant even replace lost diplomats.

I maintain that the single worst design choice in all of Total War is requiring the use of agents to conduct diplomacy, this should have never been there at all.

Using, the one diplomat I do have in central Europe, I constantly plead with HRE and Denmark for ceasefire, I even offer the areas they are attacking, but the reject me each time. I would not be as angry about this if the Diplomacy screen kept on labeling my offers "Very Demanding", when they are quite generous: Please, ill give you that castle/city, just give me a truce!

And of course the ******* POPE steps in and excommunicates me for fighting the HRE because it took Prague from me and killed many of my citizens.

And now I have lost all of my starting territory, 85%% of my troops, no money to replace them, and am trying to withdraw to Kiev in hopes of reforming myself, but by debt remains below negative 10000 florins. WHY???? I ended up disbanding most of my units that were in places other than the three regions on my border with Denmark and HRE, and that barely helped my debt at all, it only made things worse because I threw away over half of my military.

My one good force, much of which is understrength is completely trapped behind enemy Lines south of Breslau, my only hope is to sneak and fight my way to Kiev.


Im sorry, but in all of my many years of playing Total War, I have never encountered such a hopeless situation as this except in cases where I went mad with conquest and attacked many factions.

Not once in this entire campaign have I attacked or declared war on any faction except for Rebels and Egypt very early on when I joined and single handedly won a Crusade.



I understand a game being challenging, but this is just unreasonable.

This is terrible, why does everyone say Medieval II is the best? Im sorry, but from what I can tell, compared to all other TW games I have played, it is the worst. It is not a bad game at it's core, but all other Total War I have played have been much better experiences than this.

Ill keep playing it, with other factions to see how it goes, and the Kingdoms campaigns may be better, but this is unreasonably frustrating. I don't understand why everyone accepts this. Rome I was a much better experience than this.



I am frustrated and this is me venting some steam.

The Era and scale/scope of it make is still worth playing for me, with my love of history.

after playing many hours in Medieval II, I am just struggling to understand why so many players insist that this was the Best total war game, it just isn't from what I can tell.
"we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

"No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
Post edited by Half_Life_Expert on
«1

Comments

  • MacklesMackles Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,464
    edited August 2015
    I don't know about you, but if I was part of an alliance attacking a rich kingdom presenting a timid diplomatic front and actively reducing the size of its armed forces, I wouldn't feel particularly inclined to make peace when what's on the table will be mine anyway within a few years of campaigning. As far as the money issues go, I would do a little digging to see where your surplus went.

    Heh, a little digging. A nice gold mine would surely help, no?
    "Conquer, Punish, Enslave" - Words for the would-be Imperialists to live by!

    Somewhere on that hill, its gonna get bloody contradictory between us and them real fast. - Anon
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    But when I would conduct a similar strategy in other Total War games, this situation would never happen.
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,296
    edited August 2015
    Really? Wouldn't this same thing happen in RTW?

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • MacklesMackles Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,464
    edited August 2015
    But when I would conduct a similar strategy in other Total War games, this situation would never happen.

    Say it with me now. Western. Roman. Empire.

    Or any other faction in Attila that isn't the Sassanids. It's a cruel game...
    "Conquer, Punish, Enslave" - Words for the would-be Imperialists to live by!

    Somewhere on that hill, its gonna get bloody contradictory between us and them real fast. - Anon
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited August 2015
    With the pope: he won't excommunicate you for defending yourself. You either have to declare war on a Christian who's got decent papal standing and then refuse to ceasefire when he tells you to, or (the more likely reason), you have poor religious authority in your regions. You need +90% religion in provinces, and churches. Lots of churches. Skip building a church for a money/military building = skip out on papal influence = excommunication.
    Once you've got a decent amount of churches, you get a decent papal standing. Abbeys and higher religious buildings aren't necessary unless you want him to love you.

    As for your money: that's a pretty insane change in money. You sure it's a full -20,000 florins? Because losing 20k per turn is tremendous.
    Usually money drops are from closed trade between neighbours from going to war, and from moving lots of free garrison troops out of their cities.
    You sure you didn't have a bunch of buildings queued or something?
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,888
    edited August 2015
    Yes, Medieval2 is the worst part of the series. Finally someone who has seen through the nostalgia addled narrative of the fanboys. Factions in Med2 are hardcoded to wage war against the player if he's reached their borders, there's no way around it. You share borders with anyone and they will make war. The Pope will punish you for fighting against invaders and excommunicate you if you don't let them take your lands. Then they can wage war against you without repercussions and even increase their standing with the Pope because they are fighting against "heretics" and no one will make peace and there's a lot of public unrest. You might even get crusades called on you. You can try to get one of your holy men be elected Pope, but it doesn't matter, he'll do the same thing as before. That's why playing as a Christian faction is one of the worst experiences in all of Total War.

    Deinstall and forget about it. Don't even try the mods, they don't change anything about those issues.

  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    edited August 2015
    Can't say I hate Medieval 2, it's the game that truly made me love the series for the first time. I admit that the campaign is a bit wonky and the Pope is best ignored.

    That said, I've never actually wound up in a situation similar to the OP. Even then, the game takes patience to really get into; I've generally found that I have to be a lot more careful with my expansion (really make use of that 500 turn campaign length).
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    daelin4 wrote: »
    Really? Wouldn't this same thing happen in RTW?

    No, not really, the Campaign AI was more reasonable, not as good as more recent titles, but still reasonable.

    Mackles wrote: »
    Say it with me now. Western. Roman. Empire.

    Or any other faction in Attila that isn't the Sassanids. It's a cruel game...

    With the WRE, that's the specific situation designed into that faction, so I understand it there. Attila has a different design philosophy.

    From LSD:
    With the pope: he won't excommunicate you for defending yourself. You either have to declare war on a Christian who's got decent papal standing and then refuse to ceasefire when he tells you to, or (the more likely reason), you have poor religious authority in your regions. You need +90% religion in provinces, and churches. Lots of churches. Skip building a church for a money/military building = skip out on papal influence = excommunication.
    Once you've got a decent amount of churches, you get a decent papal standing. Abbeys and higher religious buildings aren't necessary unless you want him to love you.

    I have almost completely obeyed the pope in all of his missions, the one I didn't complete was due to a dumb technicality (he ordered me to recruit a priest, I already had one in that region so I didn't recruit one)

    When he called the First Crusade of the Campaign, against Cairo, I was the only faction to join, and I single handedly won, logic would dictate that I should have gained great favor from the Pope.

    In all of my core regions in Central and Eastern Europe, they were ether just above or just below 90% catholic, with the exception of Smolensk and Crimea, as I had only just conquered them and was actively spreading Christianity with churches and priests, by the pope's orders.

    I never declared war on the HRE, they attacked me each time. The first time I was able to negotiate a Ceasefire because the main army attacking me joined a crusade. When the Pope threatened to excommunicate me, I was laying siege to Prague, which was taken away from me the previous turn by HRE.
    As for your money: that's a pretty insane change in money. You sure it's a full -20,000 florins? Because losing 20k per turn is tremendous.
    Usually money drops are from closed trade between neighbours from going to war, and from moving lots of free garrison troops out of their cities.
    You sure you didn't have a bunch of buildings queued or something?

    -12,000ish down from 7500ish, I know, it doesn't make any sense, I didn't go on any spending spree, there were no messages of a catastrophe or anything, none of my settlements were under siege, and the only place with rioting was Crimea, which I had just taken. I managed to get it up to -9800 at one point by virtually cannibalizing almost all of my units in Western Russia and Ukraine areas.

    I had a couple small farms queued in my newer regions, along with a small church in Crimea.

    From

    Ephraim_Dalton
    Yes, Medieval2 is the worst part of the series. Finally someone who has seen through the nostalgia addled narrative of the fanboys. Factions in Med2 are hardcoded to wage war against the player if he's reached their borders, there's no way around it. You share borders with anyone and they will make war. The Pope will punish you for fighting against invaders and excommunicate you if you don't let them take your lands. Then they can wage war against you without repercussions and even increase their standing with the Pope because they are fighting against "heretics" and no one will make peace and there's a lot of public unrest. You might even get crusades called on you. You can try to get one of your holy men be elected Pope, but it doesn't matter, he'll do the same thing as before. That's why playing as a Christian faction is one of the worst experiences in all of Total War.

    Deinstall and forget about it. Don't even try the mods, they don't change anything about those issues.

    This is what I have noticed, the pope is so stupid so much, I even tried supporting some papal candidates of HRE and Denmark to increase their favor with me, still didn't work. I just don't understand why when I offer ceasefire, and the land they are attacking, the diplomacy screen considers it a "very demanding" offer WHAT?? That is a very generous offer! I have no money to give due to this crazy debt.

    Im not going to uninstall, ill still try out other factions and such, but what I am saying is that there are major problems with the campaign that I never hear anyone complain about, and was completely shocked by. The mini campaigns of kingdoms are somewhat better, my Teutonic one as Lithuania has been interesting, fighting many powerful factions to preserve the independence of a Pagan society.
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited August 2015
    Yes, Medieval2 is the worst part of the series. Finally someone who has seen through the nostalgia addled narrative of the fanboys. Factions in Med2 are hardcoded to wage war against the player if he's reached their borders, there's no way around it. You share borders with anyone and they will make war. The Pope will punish you for fighting against invaders and excommunicate you if you don't let them take your lands. Then they can wage war against you without repercussions and even increase their standing with the Pope because they are fighting against "heretics" and no one will make peace and there's a lot of public unrest. You might even get crusades called on you. You can try to get one of your holy men be elected Pope, but it doesn't matter, he'll do the same thing as before. That's why playing as a Christian faction is one of the worst experiences in all of Total War.

    Deinstall and forget about it. Don't even try the mods, they don't change anything about those issues.

    Why do you always get angsty about Med 2? You realise diplomacy is awful in every TW game, and that the whole "AI going out of their way to fight you" thing has been in every single title? In fact, in Shogun 2 (which you often tout as somehow being the "best"), that's exactly how it works, except there you pretend it's some kind of design decision to reflect some make believe pseudo-history. In fact, both allies and vassals in S2 will go out of their way to make war with you, no matter how small their forces are.

    There's no "hardcoded fight the player" mechanic. Nations that border each other make each other the target -- like in every TW game. If you don't want to be the target, make friends with them, or have more troops than them. You don't get factions from the other side of the map declaring on you (like in S2), because they don't border you. It's solely down to who you're bordered with.
    Lastly: like i pretty clearly said, the pope won't hate you for defending yourself. You have to be the aggressor. Keep an eye on your papal standing from time to time. When the crosses get low, build another church, or just buy a priest and send him to the arse end of the earth.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    On the contrary LSD, I have been largely satisfied with AI diplomacy in Total war, until I started playing Medieval II this year

    But to you point at the bottom:

    I keep insisting: I AM NOT THE AGRESSOR, they took land from me, massacred the citizens of Prague, I march over there to take it back, and the Pope punishes ME??

    This is just so stupid: In my HRE campaign, I rebelled against the pope and crushed the Papacy, and I had over 70 years of game time to prepare for an onslaught of Christian factions against me.

    As Poland, I obey the pope to the best of my ability, and I get stuck with all this!!
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited August 2015
    On the contrary LSD, I have been largely satisfied with AI diplomacy in Total war, until I started playing Medieval II this year

    But to you point at the bottom:

    I keep insisting: I AM NOT THE AGRESSOR, they took land from me, massacred the citizens of Prague, I march over there to take it back, and the Pope punishes ME??

    I've never liked the diplomacy in any of the TW games. It all feels exactly the same, if not worse, in each new title (e.g.:earlier games everyone threw trade agreements around, even with enemies, like they were nothing; later games, even your supposed allies won't trade with you).

    I've played a lot of M2, with a lot of different factions, and i've never experienced that. I think you can get excommed for being hugely aggressive after being attacked, like taking out a bunch of their armies and cities (as in, getting into a position where you're the victor, but continuing to stay at war with them), but for "just" taking Prague back...makes absolutely no sense.

    Last thing: always vote for the cardinal that's getting in. A nation you're at war with won't really care you voted for his cardinal. Voting for the cardinal who gets in is an automatic bump into the pope's favour. On the flipside, i think you lose a few crosses for voting for someone else.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    edited August 2015
    Sorry to laugh HLE but this is funny. I think you've hit all the negatives in the game right off the bat, or almost all. Throw in a few family members with their accumulating negative traits and you'll really get upset.

    I've hundreds, if not thousands, of hours playing the game. I play with the Retro Mod which runs the game over the Kingdoms expansion. It gives units and some adjustments to the base game that help a few things.

    As for your relationship with the Pope, do a couple of things. The first is to send a diplomat to Rome early in the campaign. Once a relationship is established then send a little gold his way every 7 to 10 turns, or when the relationship hits the bottom third of the scale. The second is to get an assassin and put him to work. Rebels are nice for building experience.

    When your receive your threat of excommunication, and you will no matter what, send the spy and assassin to visit the Pope. Go ahead and defend yourself, re-capture whatever you need to. When excommunicated use the Spy first, then assassinate the Pope. Excommunication is over, even if the relationship is still poor.

    With the change in Pope any Crusade is also over. You might still be at war with some factions but, if you work it right and are patient, those factions will sometimes be excommunicated. You will even be told to send your heir on a Crusade to attack them. :)

    I've always thought Med II (with the Retro mod) a very entertaining game, even with the "warts".
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    dge1 wrote: »
    Sorry to laugh HLE but this is funny. I think you've hit all the negatives in the game right off the bat, or almost all. Throw in a few family members with their accumulating negative traits and you'll really get upset.

    I've hundreds, if not thousands of hours, playing the game. I play with the Retro Mod which runs the game over the Kingdoms expansion. It gives units and some adjustments to the base game that help a few things.

    As for your relationship with the Pope, do a couple of things. The first is to send a diplomat to Rome early in the campaign. Once a relationship is established then send a little gold his way every 7 to 10 turns, or when the relationship hits the bottom third of the scale. The second is to get an assassin and put him to work. Rebels are nice for building experience.

    When your receive your threat of excommunication, and you will no matter what, send the spy and assassin to visit the Pope. Go ahead and defend yourself, re-capture whatever you need to. When excommunicated have use the Spy first, the Assassinate the Pope. Excommunication if over, even if the relationship is still poor.


    One of my first major policies was to send a couple diplomats all over the place to establish relations, simple things, trade agreements and exchanging map info, and I did this with the Papal States right after I signed a trade deal with Venice.

    In my next campaign I suppose ill try to lobby *not bribe* the Pope like you say, but answer me this, what buildings do I need for assassins?, I know how to obtain spies, but what do I need to get assassins.

    My whole policy of only attacking rebel territory was to build up my economy and defenses without angering too many people, before going after my long term targets: Hungary and Russia. But now I am struggling, and failing, to survive.

    I only made long distance expeditions in three cases:

    one diplomat I sent from Breslau all the way across the north German plain and then south eventually to Portugal, establishing relations along the way.

    The crusade with one army stack early in the campaign, after I captured Cairo and Alexandria, I sold the land to the Byzantines, who were very happy to have it. I tried to sell it to Venice and Sicily, but they didn't take my offer.

    two units of cavalry, separately, deep across the vast steppes of Rebel territory to both locate the settlements and to serve as early warning posts for when the Mongols invade.
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    edited August 2015
    Should be able to get Assassins from Inns, same as Spies. I usually will pick a different town from each agent type. After a few turns you'll usually (not always) get offered the ability to build a Guild structure for that agent time. Those buildings are beneficial for several things, including agent experience. The Assassin Guild offers public order among other things.

    Use the rebel armies to improve your agent experience in addition to giving your armies military experience. The Spy first, then the Assassin. Sometimes you lose an agent, but not often. They rank up pretty quickly with the experience which makes them very useful against other faction armies, and individuals like the Pope. Have at least two assassins working or available at all times as you do lose one sometimes. Spying on and taking out other faction agents is also a nice way to build experience.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator USAModerators, Tech Moderators, Knights Posts: 7,729
    edited August 2015
    A very entertaining rant, surely... but getting a bit off the ranty side.

    Try to keep it on rant, please... (LMFAO!).


    Seriously, I have always liked the game despite all its failures (the technical, some dramatic and some fixed, as well as the design and play results), but I have never considered it 'great' except in its step forward in 3D artwork compared to its predecessor. I liked it because I could play Poland, and the 'bad company' Mongols and Timurids were a nice change for middle to late game staleness... and I very much enjoyed its expansion (Kingdoms). I have to admit I liked FotS far better, despite the flimsy sorts of things like 'You! Honma! I know the human player isn't anywhere near you, or even in sight through the fog of war, but he has declared a peace with Saga, and therefor is below the necessary minimum number of factions! Declare war to save face of the game's difficulty level!'

    As I played frequently as Poland, I should say that it is normal to get sandwiched, and the only question is by whom. As Doug suggested, it is surprising that outrageously negatively self-reinforcing characteristics aren't in your litany as these were my regular grist whenever I played Poland.

    Pretty sure that there is a list of 'wanted' territories with priority in the AI's decision making for each faction. In this case, simply because you take the 'wanted' territory whilst it is under control of rebels does not remove the potential for friction with the faction that 'has its eye on the territory'. That circumstance only delays the inevitable friction, or need for immediate war.

    The pope reacts extremely negatively to any action that involves any army on a crusade of his. Having an enemy army convert to a crusading force whilst in your territory and at war with you is .. unfortunate, no matter how risible from a third party's perspective (tee hee hee!).

    Being excom'd usually means a catastrophic decline in trade revenue as everyone flees any association with your shadow's vicinity, let alone you. If it wasn't that (which you can check by looking at savgames past and present), an interruption of access to one's capitol perhaps, or some other form of relationship or characteristic (or character) that coincided either with war or being excom'd probably contributed. Usually there are two or three things that simply may have happened together, and you certainly have a number of those 'things that happened' in a short period of time.

    Good luck!
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,888
    edited August 2015
    Already got siege battles happening in one of those high level castles with mutliple tiers of walls? If you're the attacker the bad pathfinding will make you cry since you have to maneuver siege equipment through the narrow streets, if you're the defender all you need to do is put a single unit in the center square and let the timer tick down. The AI is utterly unable to deal with the second tier of walls. Also if you defend cities, it's usually better to abandon the walls and bottleneck them in the one single street they'll inevitably use for their assault. The Mongols and Timurids become an utter cakewalk if handled this way.

  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    Well the campaign has ended, and it has only reinforced my thoughts from my OP:

    For starters, that one good force was ambushed and almost wiped out, the dozen survivors limping back to Kiev, only to find that Demark had captured Kiev and severed my faction in two, at that point I only have Crimea, Vilnius, and Smolensk.

    I was able to finally negotiate a peace treaty with the HRE. And a new pope actually reconciled me back into the church

    I am still in debt, but it is gradually getting better somehow. In desperation, I sell Smolensk to Russia, which was my least profitable of my regions.

    Denmark still refuses any sort of truce, even when the Pope demands I make peace! What do you think I have been trying to do every turn you idiot?!?!?!?

    Anyway, I repel a couple Danish assaults on Vilnius, but my forces are collapsing in numbers. I try to make an alliance with Russia, but the strangest thing happens. I am unable to offer alliance as they are allied with Denmark, so out of desperation I simply offer exchanging map info just so we walk away from the table with something.

    Russia refuses any exchange of map info, but offers over 4000 florins as a gift: WHAT?!?!?! that totally caught me off guard and made no sense at all, but due to my debt, I had to accept. It didn't wipe out the debt, but it got it up to above -400 florins.

    A few turns later I try the same thing and Russia again offers this expensive gift, and I take it, but I have to use the resources to build up Crimea, which I do. So the following turn, I offer to sell Vilnius to Russia for a small price, as it is no longer profitable to me. they refuse. Then the next turn they betray me and attack Vilnius: again WHAT?!?! they can afford over 8000 florins in random gifts but cant afford to accept my offer and instead attack me?

    So I repulse the first Russian attack, but since a large stack is on the way, I evacuate my remaining men, and they go on a long and costly march to Crimea. I lose Vilnius the next turn.

    So now the once great Polish Kingdom has been reduced to a small entity on the Crimean Peninsula, and it's archrival, Denmark had advanced to the Caspian.

    I obtain a couple more diplomats, and after I repulse two surprise Byzantine invasions of Crimea, I send one to try and find the now invaded Timurds, in hopes of striking a deal for them to attack the Danes, but never find them.

    I send the other over the Caucasus and into Turk territory, hoping for an alliance. At this point I have abandoned all hope of finding friends amongst the Christians, both Catholic and Orthodox. I am devastated to find that the Turks are allied with the Byzantines, but I am able to get a trade agreement. But then I notice a Mongol settlement in Anatolia. I approach it, and discover the Mongols control the bulk of the Middle East.

    I offer trade, map info exchange, and alliance, and they accept!!!

    On top of this, a lot of my old trade agreements of other factions are still there and I am now getting from them due to owning Sebastopol. The Money pours in and gets over 50000 florins! I even start building a gunsmith with which I can build cannons. Finally!!! If I can just hold off the Danes long enough, I can build an army strong enough to march on Kiev and Sakal, and eventually take the fight back to them in Europe and take my land back!! beyond that I can take my revenge on the evil papacy and all those who support it! Rome Will be MINE!

    I set up a fort at the isthmus connecting Crimea to the rest of Europe, and with my forces there, and reinforcements from my capital, I win one of the my most heroic victories against a Danish force that outnumbered me 4 to 1.

    I can do it! I can recover from this disaster of a campaign!!!! I CAN...............................

    My capital revolts out of nowhere and I lose everything...

    GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad:


    I should have been able to recover long before that revolt, It was simply impossible to make peace with the Danes, I could barely conduct diplomacy with anyone until I finally met the mongols. Except for that brief time when there was real hope, this was one of the worst experiences in all of Total War for me. It was simply not possible for me to win except for that half dozen turns before the completely random revolt.
    Already got siege battles happening in one of those high level castles with mutliple tiers of walls? If you're the attacker the bad pathfinding will make you cry since you have to maneuver siege equipment through the narrow streets, if you're the defender all you need to do is put a single unit in the center square and let the timer tick down. The AI is utterly unable to deal with the second tier of walls. Also if you defend cities, it's usually better to abandon the walls and bottleneck them in the one single street they'll inevitably use for their assault. The Mongols and Timurids become an utter cakewalk if handled this way.

    Yes I know, I already use those tactics, the problem was that until the last 10 or so turns of the campaign, I could not afford any decent units capable of such actions, or any units at all other than the handful I had before the mysterious economic crash. And in the last handful of turns, I could only recruit militia, and some cavalry mercs and one mercenary rocket unit
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • MacklesMackles Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,464
    edited August 2015
    Pope lifts excommunication, orders everyone to make peace. Denmark refuse, threatened with dire consequences.

    post-39026-I-dont-think-so-more-like-chew-pzfZ.gif

    Denmark offers deal with the Russians to get him off his back. Russia refuses and instead gives you money.

    XBZMDDs.gif

    Russia then takes by force what you were willing to give them. Maybe it was something about pride. At any rate, upon seizing Vilnius:

    c9aOyky.gif

    Finally, Med 2 sees Poland almost back on its feet:

    tumblr_mg9rhjODVR1rscw9yo1_500_zps92f11ca5.gif


    Sounds like a pretty epic campaign.
    "Conquer, Punish, Enslave" - Words for the would-be Imperialists to live by!

    Somewhere on that hill, its gonna get bloody contradictory between us and them real fast. - Anon
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    I still have a couple of save games from shortly before the revolt, so maybe ill try again and see if I can prevent the revolt, but I am just so frustrated and cheated that ill just take a break from it.
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    edited August 2015
    Well, now that you are down to the nitty-gritty (and since a picture is worth a thousand words...)

    NuclearExplosion_zpsb107cf9a.jpg

    Then

    teddy-bear10_zpszslgam28.gif and CCC_01_zpskc1zqjyh.jpg

    Better luck on the next one...

    towar_zpsca44866d.gif
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    dge1 wrote: »
    Better luck on the next one...

    towar_zpsca44866d.gif

    Thanks, ill try again from a save game and see if I can stop that revolt, and if I can, I plan to eventually see that emoji image, only with Polish Nobles rather than yellow circles, outside of London, Madrid and Rome. Im banking on the fact that I have obtained access to Gunpowder and have a much easier place to defend, along with this huge influx of money
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • MacklesMackles Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,464
    edited August 2015
    Always my favourite part of a campaign. After getting repeatedly screwed over, delivering vengeance to all those who attempted to arrest the destiny of my faction! Indulge in some good old genocide HLE, you'll feel better afterwards.
    "Conquer, Punish, Enslave" - Words for the would-be Imperialists to live by!

    Somewhere on that hill, its gonna get bloody contradictory between us and them real fast. - Anon
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    I had one save game that I used to try again, and mercifully the revolt did not happen. I was able to get enough men back from the front to ensure that would not happen again!

    So a little over a dozen turns later..........
    Battlefield Report from an officer of the King's guard to be read to all of the people of the kingdom

    Summer, 1490: Northwest of Caffa, Crimea.

    We marched quickly from the city to confront the Danes, whom had been pulled off the attack on us by our comrades who had marched to the Danes' rear from our frontier post: Fort Krakow. Initially only our royal mounted guard and three companies of Militia arrived at the battlefield, located at the base of a mountain range. We knew our comrades from Fort Krakow were already higher up on a hill, and the Danes just over a ridge in front of them, with us behind the Danes farther down in a valley.

    Unable to do anything but quickly join with our comrades, we ascended from the valley, with our scouts informing us that the mounted archers from our comrades had engaged the Danes, along with a small band of Strzelcy, the descendants of the survivors of the fallof Vilnius many years ago.

    We were also informed that the main body of the Danish force was breaking off from it's original position to engage us! Unable to match the Danes in numbers, we began to set up a small line at the top of the valley to try and buy time for our comrades to engage the Danes from the rear.

    Just as we were in position, with the Danish Heavy infantry ready to attack us, we saw, on the hill from which they came, our comrades on the ridgeline, silhouetted by the sun which was behind them. However, we saw not many men, but small groups of men on the ridge , standing near large objects on the ground with which they were working. Then it became clear, our heroic comrades had managed to bring their 8 great Bombard cannons and 4 hired arrow rocket launchers from Fort Krakow in incredible time!

    Despite the years of practice and training, these contraptions had never been used by our army on the field before, and we in the Royal guard were both excited and very nervous to discover how they would work and perform in battle. But one thing was for sure, our comrades had to engage the Danes very fast, as they had disengaged from us and returned back toward them!

    Then there was a horrendous thunder and a great fire, as all of the contraptions unleashed their power at once. Large flaming spheres and many small, fast flaming projectiles stormed through the air and directly into the ranks of the Danes. It was sheer terror for the Danish warriors, men were blown to pieces and ignited all over the field. Then came the second volley and there was more of the same destruction all over the field.

    Yet, encouraged by their leader, the Danes pressed on. It was shortly after this rallying cry that the militia from Fort Krakow stormed upon the Danes from a nearby gully, quickly joined by local cavalry which stormed down from the mountains. All this time missiles from the arrows and crossbows from earlier in the fight continued to rain fire down upon the Danes.

    What transpired can be described as nothing but complete panic and terror from the Danish Ranks, with the bravest of their knights being torn to shreds at very short range by the Bombards.

    At this moment, out great king shouted to our small force: "We cannot wait for the others to get here! We will ride and march forward now and exact revenge on these devils, who drove you and your ancestors from our homes many years ago. FOR OUR ANCESTORS!!! FOR OUR LAND!!! FOR OUR FAMILIES!!! CHAAAAAARRRRRGE!!!!!!"

    All of out men immediately replied to the Kings call, and we stormed directly into the rear of the collapsing Danish force. The enemy forces completely collapsed. We showed no mercy, many of them were cut down by our Royal Guard and Militia, with some escaping only because out small force was not large enough to cover the entire area. Mercifully, the gunners of the Bombards and Launchers had seen the situation and tamed their terrible contraptions.

    Our people have won many great battles in our history, but this victory has no equal. We have completely smashed the best the Danes could throw at us, and send those lucky few fleeing straight back to Denmark where they belong.

    Remember this day my fellow Poles, as it has shown we can not only defeat, but destroy our archenemy, Denmark. These new contraptions will give us final victory!

    We will liberate out lands! we will exact revenge on all those who betrayed us! We will return to our home once again!

    I just felt like reporting this battle in that way.

    That was from the perspective of the reinforcements, all of which could not arrive due to army size limit. I mainly controlled the force from that frontier fort, which I have personally dubbed Fort Krakow, after my long lost original capital.

    Obviously I had to make up some things for this narrative, like the Kings short speech is my own creation, but this is basically true to what happened.

    It seems that I can recover from this disaster of a campaign, but there are still many issues with the campaign that are crazy. My frustration is that many of the complaints regarding AI and diplomacy I have seen about TW campaigns from Shogun 2 to Attila, I have rarely seen the issues to the level they say in recent TW games, but they are all over the place in Medieval II.
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,888
    edited August 2015
    Why do you always get angsty about Med 2? You realise diplomacy is awful in every TW game, and that the whole "AI going out of their way to fight you" thing has been in every single title? In fact, in Shogun 2 (which you often tout as somehow being the "best"), that's exactly how it works, except there you pretend it's some kind of design decision to reflect some make believe pseudo-history. In fact, both allies and vassals in S2 will go out of their way to make war with you, no matter how small their forces are.

    There's no "hardcoded fight the player" mechanic. Nations that border each other make each other the target -- like in every TW game. If you don't want to be the target, make friends with them, or have more troops than them. You don't get factions from the other side of the map declaring on you (like in S2), because they don't border you. It's solely down to who you're bordered with.
    Lastly: like i pretty clearly said, the pope won't hate you for defending yourself. You have to be the aggressor. Keep an eye on your papal standing from time to time. When the crosses get low, build another church, or just buy a priest and send him to the arse end of the earth.
    So much misinformation in this here, let's see:

    1.I never once touted Shogun2 as the best TW title, I have been highly critical of it so your entire first paragraph is already off the table. Realm Divide BTW still beats the hardcoded aggression of the TW2 engine titles since it's actually openly told to the player

    2.From Empire onwards, there were actual mechanics involved behind the AI making and breaking treaties with the player, In R1/M2 the AI would always break all treaties and attack if the player was on the border no matter how their attitude might have been beforehand

    3.The Pope will upon hostile contact between two catholic factions force a truce on both factions within two turns. If the AI took any city of you within those turns you are not allowed to take it back or face excommunication. That's how it works. Since there's also no trespassing mechanic the AI is free to put stack besides your cities and take them the very turn the truce expires and the player can't do anything about it. Sieges take often more than two turns and Pope truce therefore makes it impossible to force a surrender which means there are way too many unnecessary siege assaults

    The Pope is one of the worst and most ill-conceived mechanics that have been put in any TW title so far and makes vanilla Med2 completely unplayable as a catholic faction for me

  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited August 2015
    The Pope is one of the worst and most ill-conceived mechanics that have been put in any TW title so far and makes vanilla Med2 completely unplayable as a catholic faction for me

    I can't say I disagree, I gotta put the Pope #2 behind requirement of Diplomats for diplomacy in RTW and M2TW
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • Hidden GunmanHidden Gunman Moderator Moderators Posts: 4,606
    edited August 2015
    Half-Life, here's HG's rule number 1 for diplomacy in Medieval 2:

    Assassinate Pope, install your own. Repeat as needed.
    Yes, it's me.

    Gungho |Takeda| Yamagato Masakage

    You have spoken with clarity of thought and rhetorical flourish...you have surely earned the favour of the mods.

    If you didn't, click here...
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaRegistered Users Posts: 4,784
    edited August 2015
    HLE, here is how you deal with the Pope in Med2 after the cease hostilities mission is issued.

    1. Bring in ONLY a general, preferably one who is so bad that you want him dead.
    2. Bait the AI into attack him. (AI will be the one excommunicated, not you; after this, you can call a Crusade against said factions capital)
    3. Profit.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,888
    edited August 2015
    It tells you just how bad a mechanic is when you have to resort to cheese like that. Yet Rome2 is bashed for every little thing while Med2 is praised and put onto a pedestal of perfection.

  • EllEzDeeEllEzDee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited August 2015
    It tells you just how bad a mechanic is when you have to resort to cheese like that. Yet Rome2 is bashed for every little thing while Med2 is praised and put onto a pedestal of perfection.

    Or...you know...don't get on the pope's bad side. It really isn't difficult. You've got 2 choices: play nice, build churches, crusade, bag factions that the pope hates...or you play not nice, do whatever you like, and make a point of assassinating the pope so you're not permanently excommunicated.

    Majority of games i've played as HRE and England. Always end up at war with France/Spain/Hungary/Denmark. Besides when i first got the game, i've never been on the wrong end of the pope.

    Obviously the pope isn't as bad as you're making out.
    [portable-ID]lsd[/portable-ID]
    Feel free to check out my Steam guide on naval combat in E:TW
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,163
    edited August 2015
    Thread topic is the quality of game's campaign, and the issues surrounding it, not generating statistics.

    Posts deleted.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
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