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Cavalry Immune to Impact Damage?

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  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,370
    edited October 2015
    hruza wrote: »
    This whole impact damage and "charges" are ridiculous anyway. People did not fight by ramming each other like a mad men. They invented weapons for a reason. Horse was transportation vehicle, not a weapon either.

    Right, because medieval knights would slowly trot up to enemy formations and stab them with their lances.
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Right, because medieval knights would slowly trot up to enemy formations and stab them with their lances.
    No, they carried their lances to pick their teeth.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,852
    edited October 2015
    Umm, charges were a thing in warfare, they didn't run at the enemy just because they needed to lose some weight but because it did give them additional momentum for attacks.
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    Umm, charges were a thing in warfare, they didn't run at the enemy just because they needed to lose some weight but because it did give them additional momentum for attacks.
    They did not run to the enemy other then in exceptions. Like when Athenians needed to avoid excessive casualties against Persian archery at Marathon. And then it was more a jog then "run". There are plenty of reason why you don't run in to combat:

    You get tired before combat even started.
    You can't maintain formation.
    Combat was not a pushing match, your "momentum" won't do you any good except getting you impaled on some kind of sharp point. It was fight with spears, swords and axes, not an American football with a ball.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,852
    edited October 2015
    You get tired before combat even started.
    Depends entirely on where you start the charge.
    You can't maintain formation.
    Ditto. Also, not all armies fought in tight formations.
    Combat was not a pushing match, your "momentum" won't do you any good except getting you impaled on some kind of sharp point. It was fight with spears, swords and axes, not an American football with a ball.
    You know, there can be situations in battles where the enemy is not ready for a charge and momentum does indeed give quite a lot of power to your own spear thrust or sword swing.

    Have you actually read any sources on military tactics, ancient or otherwise, or is this just your gut speaking? Charges were a thing well into this century BTW.
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    Depends entirely on where you start the charge.
    Unless you charge down some steep hill, no it does not. Running is always gone tire you. More so if you carry weapons and armour.
    Ditto. Also, not all armies fought in tight formations.
    All fought in formations and you can't maintain any formation in full run.
    You know, there can be situations in battles where the enemy is not ready for a charge and momentum does indeed give quite a lot of power to your own spear thrust or sword swing.
    Like what situation? In no situation you want to end up inside enemy formation unless you are running down fleeing enemy. Once more, fighting is not a pushing match.
    Have you actually read any sources on military tactics, ancient or otherwise, or is this just your gut speaking? Charges were a thing well into this century BTW.
    Yes I did. Did you?

    Charges were carefully managed for speed, with a charge's maximum speed being 20 km/h (12 mph). Faster progress resulted in a break in formation and blown horses. Murat merely demanded that his squadrons should ‘walk on the march and trot in the presence of the enemy’; Wellington’s cavalry always charged at full gallop – even if they sometimes got out of hand. A witness of one of the most celebrated charges of the period, that of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo, described how different it was to the attack à outrance depicted in Scotland for Ever. In reality, the regiment came over the crest of the Mont St-Jean ridge, passed through their own infantry, and almost immediately ran into the advancing French, so that the ‘actually walked over this Column’.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_the_Napoleonic_Wars

    Do you see somebody crashing in to the infantry here? Looks like they pretty much poke their lances, doesn't it?

    rtakt02.jpg

    And some more poking:

    tapestry.jpg

    battle-of-hastings-bayeux-tapestry-photo-researchers.jpg

    BattleofHastings.jpg
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    edited October 2015
    Small point; charges by ancient or medieval cavalry would be quite different from those of later periods.

    Cavalry, especially around the era depicted in Attila and later into the Middle ages became much heavier, even it's lighter forms employing larger horses. The devastating result of a charge would not only come from the morale impact but also from the sheer weight and momentum of the horses themselves.

    A horse, even when turning in place has enough momentum to cause serious damage to modern vehicle bodies made of sturdy metals (something I can personally attest to). Imagine then what the impact would be on ranks of men, a charge of horses at full gallop would most certainly be devastating to infantry, crushing men beneath the sheer weight of the horses; add to the the armour on the horse and it's rider, not to mention the attacks by the rider of the horse and the horse itself trampling and kicking.

    It should also be noted that Parthian and (even more so) Frankish lancers were infamous for eating through many ranks of men before they could be stopped.
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    edited October 2015
    hruza wrote: »
    Unless you charge down some steep hill, no it does not. Running is always gone tire you. More so if you carry weapons and armour.


    All fought in formations and you can't maintain any formation in full run.


    Like what situation? In no situation you want to end up inside enemy formation unless you are running down fleeing enemy. Once more, fighting is not a pushing match.

    Ever heard of shock tactics? They were sort of a big thing around the time and still are. Shock tactics are in fact extremely effective in combat and tend to cause heavy losses for the enemy when executed properly.

    Also, not everyone fought in formation. That required discipline and training which most troops simply did not possess; there being a difference between fighting as a mass and fighting in formation.
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    cool_lad wrote: »
    Small point; charges by ancient or medieval cavalry would be quite different from those of later periods.
    In what were they quit different? You mean later cavalry did not use horses, helmets, lances, spears, swords, stirrups, saddles, armour?
    cool_lad wrote: »
    The devastating result of a charge would not only come from the morale impact but also from the sheer weight and momentum of the horses themselves.
    Source?
    cool_lad wrote: »
    A horse, even when turning in place has enough momentum to cause serious damage to modern vehicle bodies made of sturdy metals (something I can personally attest to).
    Newton's third law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite re-action." That's elementary physic. What kind of sturdy metals is horse body made of?

    Third law in practice:
    "This is the distressing moment Irish travellers are believed to have left a horse to die on the side of a country road after crashing it into the back of a parked car while racing it."

    article-2440291-186F1B1700000578-933_634x599.jpg

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2440291/Distressing-moment-travellers-leave-horse-dead-Irish-country-road.html

    Seems that car won that "charge" hands down.
    cool_lad wrote: »
    Imagine then what the impact would be on ranks of men, a charge of horses at full gallop would most certainly be devastating to infantry, crushing men beneath the sheer weight of the horses; add to the the armour on the horse and it's rider, not to mention the attacks by the rider of the horse and the horse itself trampling and kicking.
    And now imagine what the impact would be on those charging horses and their riders. They would be kicking all right, in agony because most of them would be dead or maimed along with their riders.
    cool_lad wrote: »
    It should also be noted that Parthian and (even more so) Frankish lancers were infamous for eating through many ranks of men before they could be stopped.
    Source?
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    cool_lad wrote: »
    Ever heard of shock tactics?
    Yes. Never heard it included people and animals killing themselves by crashing in to each other full speed thou. But go on and point me to your sources which show they did.
  • hruzahruza Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 489
    edited October 2015
    Horses and impact damage not so total war:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4dd_1191843003 (skip to 0:35)

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7ca_1396108333 (skip to 0:50)

    In formation few ranks deep:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzyJYH0kMVE (at 0:25)

    You don't have to be Alexander the Great to figure out, this is NOT how you want to use your cavalry.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 33,852
    edited October 2015
    So gut feeling devoid of any historical research it is, got it. CA can go and keep the aspect then.
  • WalrusJonesWalrusJones Member Registered Users Posts: 84
    edited October 2015
    Yet, that example of horses dieing from ramming into things really is more just a better example that things can die if you put blinders onto them and run them into very bad, dumb situations.
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