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Total War: WARHAMMER Dev Blog – Chaos Warriors, Pre-orders and DLC

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  • ShigawireShigawire Senior Member Norway, BrønnøysundRegistered Users Posts: 4,075
    edited November 2015
    Bart, Mike, Rob: This was a great blog post that gave the impression of being heartfelt and real, not just market-speak. It was an elucidating explanation, although some might not be satisfied with it. A lot of the disdain for pre-orders / dlc has had to do with a faillure to communicate the producer aspect of development to consumers (pipelines of teams assigned to a certain cost, lined up on a Gantt chart etc). But also due to a failure of consumers to perceive that fact, and insert a cynical theory in its place. It's also caused by a mismatch of consumer expectations with developer execution.

    More to the grit of the issue, I do think Mike is on to something when he suggests that perhaps pre-orders could be tangientally toxic. The way pre-orders of games this last decade has evolved to, I do think pre-orders are (in their current form) toxic to the relationship between developer, publisher and consumer (three way toxicity).

    The very nature of a successful pre-order campaign reduces a lot of pressure on the publisher to provide the developer with adequate resources for Quality Assurance. It's not that pre-orders cause a bad launch, but it certainly doesn't incentivize the publisher to "put the pedal to the metal" in QA. It is ultimately the pubilshers' responsibility by having some form of oversight of the developer's progress. Warner Brothers' latest Arkham game had a third party studio port the game to PC, and it was a messy release - still is a messy re-release. Sure, WB could blame that developer. That's easy. But WB is ultimately responsible for not giving that developer the time or resources they needed, or perhaps WB didn't implement a thorough enough audit and oversight regimen. Of course, too much oversight and the developer might become hampered and uncomfortable, causing consternation between publisher and developer. But too little oversight is just as bad, if not worse. It must be a fine balance. In any case, I think the games industry (and consumers) as a whole is in a "learning phase" of how to deal with pre-orders, dlc, publisher pressures etc. I do think it will change for the better, and won't always be like it has been for a lot of games.
    Woody0 wrote: »
    What I would also like to question is if you would be losing money if you included the DLC contents in the base game, how can you afford to give it away for free with pre-orders?

    Understanding The Time Value Of Money

    DEFINITION of 'Time Value of Money - TVM'
    The idea that money available at the present time is worth more than the same amount in the future due to its potential earning capacity. This core principle of finance holds that, provided money can earn interest, any amount of money is worth more the sooner it is received.

    Also referred to as "present discounted value".


    timevalue_082703_1.GIF

    Plus.. as they said already, the pre-order freeLC might incentivize more people to buy the game sooner rather than later, which drives sales up.
  • ElfgoreElfgore Member Registered Users Posts: 87
    edited November 2015
    Sorry, CA. I love 'ya, but I'm not believing a word of that nor have you changed my mind on what this is.

    They're in the base game, I should not have to pay extra to let me play them.

    I must say though, it is really refreshing to see a game company straight up telling me to wait until reviews come out or not purchase it at all if I dislike it.
    Team Ogre Kingdoms 4 lyfe
  • CoveredfiresCoveredfires Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,066
    edited November 2015
    Even though there is still some negative comments floating around in here - I will just say that I appreciate the response CA. I do understand the reasoning behind what you are doing, and the pre-order incentives. Obviously you are out to make the best game possible for people to enjoy, including yourself, but at the end of the day you still are a business.

    I for one am glad I get to play Chaos Warriors! I thought I would have to wait for some time after the release for that.

    Thanks!
    Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.
    Donald Trump

  • GrimtalosGrimtalos Member Registered Users Posts: 414
    edited November 2015
    Thanks for this CA, I for one do not mind Chaos being DLC or preorder. Really like the dev posts you guys are posting, seems to be a massive step up from the info available around Rome2 before release.
    But how about a sneaky screenshot to tie us over :)
  • capybarasiesta89capybarasiesta89 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 4,438
    edited November 2015
    Hold on a second! How could I miss it we'll see gameplay through the eyes of Greenskins, but not Vampire Counts yet?! I believe Charlotte from CA said that we will wait a little bit longer than Halloween for them, and Joey told me at EGX that we'll hear about them Soon... can you answer me to this Bart? Or anyone from CA?

    I will be super happy to see gameplay, from any Race but please give us some sauce for VC.

    And please no dodging for once :D You're honest with us and that's absolutely positive side from you guys :)
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • RiekopoRiekopo Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,254
    edited November 2015
    The reality of this situation is that people don't like what you're doing no matter what explanation you have for it. It's not consumer friendly. I find it telling that every time a Total War game gets released you have the Creative Director or someone apologizing for things. That should set a light bulb off on your heads. I thought this was a really bizarre thing to say:
    Our general approach is to make the games we want to play and hope players agree with us, rather than trying to second guess what players might want and doing that.

    Why would you not be making the games for your players? You don't have to "second guess". There's millions of posts, blogs, videos from your players on the internet about what they want. Why don't you start doing community alphas and betas instead of releasing broken products? Why don't you start doing community surveys like 343i does for Halo? Creative Assembly's business practices suck.
  • Sunny203Sunny203 Member Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited November 2015
    It is extremely respectful of you guys to talk to us like this. I agree with a lot of what you said and appreciate insight into CA's adapting to the rapidly changing market.

    Just one problem.....don't give a *

    GIVE ME MORE THAN 20 UNITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    DLC can be gotten over. A Broken Game with a 20 Unit Cap cannot.

    I'd love such a thought out response on this. Player HAPPINESS right?
    CA, you are making dreams come true
  • DavidtheDukeDavidtheDuke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited November 2015
    Sunny203 wrote: »
    It is extremely respectful of you guys to talk to us like this. I agree with a lot of what you said and appreciate insight into CA's adapting to the rapidly changing market.

    Just one problem.....don't give a *

    GIVE ME MORE THAN 20 UNITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    DLC can be gotten over. A Broken Game with a 20 Unit Cap cannot.

    I'd love such a thought out response on this. Player HAPPINESS right?

    CA should develop a quick army-tab interface where you can have up to 200 units or something, leave this as some out-of-the-way option, but don't try to balance the game around this. Then, leave unit stat modding still available unofficially for the community. This way 20+ unit armies are potentially feasible, but CA doesn't have to spend a bunch of time balancing around that decision.
    i6700k @ 4.0 ghz
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  • Bart_CABart_CA Creative Assembly Horsham, UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Administrators, CA Staff Posts: 350
    edited November 2015
    Hold on a second! How could I miss it we'll see gameplay through the eyes of Greenskins, but not Vampire Counts yet?! I believe Charlotte from CA said that we will wait a little bit longer than Halloween for them, and Joey told me at EGX that we'll hear about them Soon... can you answer me to this Bart? Or anyone from CA?

    Yes, it is the Greenskins next, Vampire Counts wait in the shadows for a while longer yet.

    To be honest, I was bit disappointed in that as I am more of a fan of VC, and I've never really rated the Greenskins, mainly because I always find my Dark Elves struggle against them on the tabletop.... But having sat through the work in progress orc and goblin campaign demo internally earlier I can tell you I am rapidly rethinking who I'm going to start my first grand campaign as.
    Forum Terms & Conditions

    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • CHARLOTTEB_CACHARLOTTEB_CA Administrator Registered Users, Moderators, CA Staff Mods, CA Staff Posts: 3,210
    edited November 2015
    Hey englisharcher89 ,

    I know it's hard to keep the anticipation for information on VC in check sometimes :p

    When we are ready to show the VC off, we will in full force! so please hold out until then! ^_^
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • capybarasiesta89capybarasiesta89 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 4,438
    edited November 2015
    Ahhh well thank you so much for answering. I suppose it will be around January 2016, we saw Dwarfs two months ago so now this month it's time for Greenskins, happy to hear that and official response :)

    I'll have to wait for my Night Aristocracy a bit longer, though I must say it makes me more impatient now hehe, you must be preparing something special for VC if you leave them for later.

    Ahh yes and of course obligatory reaction to that

    this-is-fine-dog-embed_c1wcflsukty01jr4jtcy11rrx.jpg6
    Vampire Counts
    Tomb Kings
    The Empire

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death." - Vlad von Carstein
  • Sunny203Sunny203 Member Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited November 2015
    CA should develop a quick army-tab interface where you can have up to 200 units or something, leave this as some out-of-the-way option, but don't try to balance the game around this. Then, leave unit stat modding still available unofficially for the community. This way 20+ unit armies are potentially feasible, but CA doesn't have to spend a bunch of time balancing around that decision.


    The sweet smell of problem solving.
    Hear that CA? We got some other threads going on the issue, you should check them out.
    CA, you are making dreams come true
  • Bart_CABart_CA Creative Assembly Horsham, UKRegistered Users, Moderators, Administrators, CA Staff Posts: 350
    edited November 2015
    Sunny203 wrote: »
    It is extremely respectful of you guys to talk to us like this. I agree with a lot of what you said and appreciate insight into CA's adapting to the rapidly changing market.

    Just one problem.....don't give a *

    GIVE ME MORE THAN 20 UNITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    DLC can be gotten over. A Broken Game with a 20 Unit Cap cannot.

    I'd love such a thought out response on this. Player HAPPINESS right?

    Hi Sunny203 - I can say that we've noticed this is a concern (of yours and others) and it is talked about a lot, there's nothing I can say further on the matter at the moment I'm afraid though.
    Forum Terms & Conditions

    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited November 2015
    Bart CA wrote: »
    Yes, it is the Greenskins next, Vampire Counts wait in the shadows for a while longer yet.

    To be honest, I was bit disappointed in that as I am more of a fan of VC, and I've never really rated the Greenskins, mainly because I always find my Dark Elves struggle against them on the tabletop.... But having sat through the work in progress orc and goblin campaign demo internally earlier I can tell you I am rapidly rethinking who I'm going to start my first grand campaign as.
    Thanks for the info !

    PS: Start lobbying the graphic designers for 6th edition executioners and helmets, and two wheeled chariots for dark elves I'll totally bribe you. ;)
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • TheBraveKnightTheBraveKnight Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    edited November 2015
    Well, I am looking forward to the Greenskin Campaign gameplay that is coming soon. The campaign map gameplay is what will determine if I purchase the game or not as that is my favorite aspect in Total War.
    Current Top 3 Total War List

    1) Thrones of Britannia - Art style, soundtrack, aging portraits, sieges, politics, and trait system!
    (Prob 3 Kingdoms after I invest more hours. Awesome awesome game!)

    2) Warhammer 2 - Eye of the Vortex

    3) Shogun 2

    Honorable mentions - Medieval 1

  • CoveredfiresCoveredfires Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,066
    edited November 2015
    Bart CA wrote: »
    Hi Sunny203 - I can say that we've noticed this is a concern (of yours and others) and it is talked about a lot, there's nothing I can say further on the matter at the moment I'm afraid though.

    I am glad to see that you all are taking our concerns into consideration. I know I am also of the crowd that doesn't want a 20 unit cap on Player control. I would honestly love 30-40 unit sizes in armies.
    Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.
    Donald Trump

  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKRegistered Users Posts: 1,136
    edited November 2015
    I get your argument but it seems strange that other companies release even bigger games for £30-£40 and yet Warhammer is £50+ DLC
    [WOLF]Diplomatt

    Moderator of www.reddit.com/r/totalwar
  • Sunny203Sunny203 Member Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited November 2015
    Bart CA wrote: »
    Hi Sunny203 - I can say that we've noticed this is a concern (of yours and others) and it is talked about a lot, there's nothing I can say further on the matter at the moment I'm afraid though.


    That reply is very comforting.

    You talk, we'll talk. We're listening, if you'll please listen. Hopefully problems can be solved.
    CA, you are making dreams come true
  • Sky_sweeperSky_sweeper Senior Member OklahomaRegistered Users Posts: 1,711
    edited November 2015
    Alright - if you guys are listening, I have a possible compromise. Give us one Chaos lord and the expanded roster, regardless of pre-order or not. Then have the other two lords be what the actual "DLC" is.

    I don't like pre-purchase DLC at all. I think it's a scummy practice that is anti-consumer. But if you're listening then please take this possibility into consideration. I don't know how much it would put out the fires for others, but for me it would at least make the whole situation seem less aggravating. As it stands right now an entire form of play (horde mode) is locked off to DLC. That's not good. And the whole point of DLC's creation was to give extra content AFTER release of the initial product - not in conjunction with. that just proves it is cut content - i.e. content that could be included with the base game, but just isn't because it was decided not to be.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
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    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • GamlingGamling Member Registered Users Posts: 77
    edited November 2015
    Alright - if you guys are listening, I have a possible compromise. Give us one Chaos lord and the expanded roster, regardless of pre-order or not. Then have the other two lords be what the actual "DLC" is.

    I don't like pre-purchase DLC at all. I think it's a scummy practice that is anti-consumer. But if you're listening then please take this possibility into consideration. I don't know how much it would put out the fires for others, but for me it would at least make the whole situation seem less aggravating. As it stands right now an entire form of play (horde mode) is locked off to DLC. That's not good. And the whole point of DLC's creation was to give extra content AFTER release of the initial product - not in conjunction with. that just proves it is cut content - i.e. content that could be included with the base game, but just isn't because it was decided not to be.

    By reading their post it seems they can't since the reason they're doing this in the first place is they don't have any more budget movement space meaning the excess content which they want in the game needs to come under "DLC" to warrent a seperate budget to enable this extra content however they have compromised by allowing it to be preorder flc aswell as normal dlc post release. in my opinion this makes complete sense :) thanks CA :)
  • VexiumVexium Member Registered Users Posts: 73
    edited November 2015
    Thank you for the time to try to explain this to some people that nothing is for free.

    Some people think the game should be 100% what they want..........there are thousands of players all with different thoughts and ideas, does that mean they have to create thousands of different games to keep everyone happy?
    They cant just create custom made games for everyone.

    I'm happy the way it is now and I pre-ordered the game and never had a second regretting it.

    Keep up the good work.

    Vexium
  • Welsh_DragonWelsh_Dragon Senior Member Great BritainRegistered Users Posts: 2,914
    edited November 2015
    memccann wrote: »
    I get your argument but it seems strange that other companies release even bigger games for £30-£40 and yet Warhammer is £50+ DLC

    But what qualifies as a bigger game? Off the top of my head I can't think of many games that have the sheer scale of a Total War game, nor the replayability. I never thought I would spend 950+ hours on any game, but that's what I've done on Rome II in the two years I've owned it, and I'm still playing. The value for money ( pounds to hours played) even having bought the game and all the DLC except Blood & Gore is astonishing.

    Yes there are some really big releases with big budgets. But they get the big budgets, and in some cases can keep the prices down more, because they know they are going to sell so many copies that they will get their money back and more besides.

    Take something like, for example, Metal Gear Solid V, which had an eye wateringly high budget of $80 million. It made $179 million in it's opening day. So they made back the budget, twice, and with another $19 million on top of that, in less than 24 hours! A strategy game, let alone a CA one, can probably only dream of figures like that. And even then, I look on Steam right now and it's £45.99. (Not sure what that is in $$$)

    Yes, the cost of Warhammer: Total War is higher than we are used to. But then it's clearly costing CA more than any other game they have done as well. If my experience with the other Total War titles is anything like what this will be, then I think for me it will still be worth it.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.
    CraigK CA wrote:
    I think Welsh Dragon knows too much...
    "You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."
  • Sky_sweeperSky_sweeper Senior Member OklahomaRegistered Users Posts: 1,711
    edited November 2015
    Gamling wrote: »
    By reading their post it seems they can't since the reason they're doing this in the first place is they don't have any more budget movement space meaning the excess content which they want in the game needs to come under "DLC" to warrent a seperate budget to enable this extra content however they have compromised by allowing it to be preorder flc aswell as normal dlc post release. in my opinion this makes complete sense :) thanks CA :)

    The problem is - and they say this straight up in the blog post - they wanted a pre-order incentive. They shouldn't NEED a pre-order incentive. The incentive to pre-order was the game (even though pre-ordering a digital product is ridiculous anyway, but that's a different debate). They would have had so many more pre-orders, and in causation more money, if they hadn't said ANYTHING about chaos. they should have left it silent, then sold it to everyone a month or two after release. I guarantee you the bad response would be minimal compared to this. The fact they keep using words like "pre-order incentives" and "we needed day-1 DLC" just makes this whole thing seem insincere and a PR response without actually addressing the fan's concerns or suggestions.

    And therefore makes me feel that this was a decision consciously made to make more money - not to make more content.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • Welsh_DragonWelsh_Dragon Senior Member Great BritainRegistered Users Posts: 2,914
    edited November 2015
    Alright - if you guys are listening, I have a possible compromise. Give us one Chaos lord and the expanded roster, regardless of pre-order or not. Then have the other two lords be what the actual "DLC" is.

    I don't like pre-purchase DLC at all. I think it's a scummy practice that is anti-consumer. But if you're listening then please take this possibility into consideration. I don't know how much it would put out the fires for others, but for me it would at least make the whole situation seem less aggravating. As it stands right now an entire form of play (horde mode) is locked off to DLC. That's not good. And the whole point of DLC's creation was to give extra content AFTER release of the initial product - not in conjunction with. that just proves it is cut content - i.e. content that could be included with the base game, but just isn't because it was decided not to be.

    How is giving away 90+% of the new content for free a compromise?

    That's like (as car analogies are so popular) giving away a car for free but asking you to pay for the seat cushions. The amount of money that selling the seat cushions will raise is like a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of the car. And if you charge enough for the seat cushions to justify the cost of the car, most people just won't buy the seat cushions at all.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.
    CraigK CA wrote:
    I think Welsh Dragon knows too much...
    "You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."
  • DavidtheDukeDavidtheDuke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,177
    edited November 2015
    Sunny203 wrote: »
    That reply is very comforting.

    You talk, we'll talk. We're listening, if you'll please listen. Hopefully problems can be solved.
    I'm with you man. I want hundreds of goblin units attacking my dwarf fortresses. I demand it!! :D
    i6700k @ 4.0 ghz
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  • Sky_sweeperSky_sweeper Senior Member OklahomaRegistered Users Posts: 1,711
    edited November 2015
    How is giving away 90+% of the new content for free a compromise?

    That's like (as car analogies are so popular) giving away a car for free but asking you to pay for the seat cushions. The amount of money that selling the seat cushions will raise is like a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of the car. And if you charge enough for the seat cushions to justify the cost of the car, most people just won't buy the seat cushions at all.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.

    Okay, firstly it's not 90% of the content for free... of the DLC is is about half. (each lord counts as 1/4, and the unit roster and mode of play is another 1/4) Seeing as each lord is essentially a faction in the terms of Rome II and Attila, that seems equivalent to them giving us a faction like the FreeLC faction of the Empire of the Sands DLC they released for Attila. And since the Chaos faction has one more lord than the main 4 anyway, I say that sounds pretty **** reasonable.

    Secondly, the car analogy only works if you are getting it and are being sold (based on the commericals) that you're going to get a v8. But then when you get there they say that the v8 model is for people who pre-purchase in advance of coming, or an upgrade for another extra fee.

    ALSO I'm fairly sure that car manufacturing costs a lot more than creating a code that can literally be copied and sold individually an infinite amount of times at no cost.
    A brave man marches into danger and ignores his fear. A courageous man marches into danger while embracing his fear.

    OS: Windows 7 Premium 64 bit
    CPU: Intel i7 4970k 4.0 Ghz
    GPU: AMD r9 290x 4GB
    RAM: 16GB DDR3

    Veteran of the Total War franchise since Shogun: Total war. (I was 10)
  • thomasf1015thomasf1015 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1
    edited November 2015
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9fEu0YD2HA You missed the problem.

    Also, why Chaos Warriors? They're one of the most important factions!
  • Gibbo789Gibbo789 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3
    edited November 2015
    I have been a total war fan for years like I saved my pocket money to get a pc to play Total war:Rome after watching time commanders. I absolutely love these games I have not minded DLC in the past I mean the fall of the samurai was one of the best games I have ever played. I understand at the end of the day it is business. However I believe most people would agree with me about this instead of releasing DLC throughout the launch of a game just increase the original cost of the game as we don't want to buy parts of the game we want the whole game we want to enjoy every aspect of what a total war game encapsulates. I appreciate that you have taken the time to respond to your community and we appreciate this but in listening to us, use us to help cut cost whether it is with closed alpha & beta's to test find bugs and listen to the fans on what we like and dislike. If you have read this thank you for your time. Now lets kill some greenskins.
  • Tim_WardTim_Ward Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 347
    edited November 2015
    I would strongly urge anyone who has a problem with this to *not* pre-order Warhammer: Total War or, indeed, any other video game. Just buy the thing on release day if you're that keen on it.

    If people didn't pre-order games, there would be no incentive for companies to do this stuff.

    Come on, enough is enough. Let's knock this atrocious practice on the head.
  • Welsh_DragonWelsh_Dragon Senior Member Great BritainRegistered Users Posts: 2,914
    edited November 2015
    Okay, firstly it's not 90% of the content for free... of the DLC is is about half. (each lord counts as 1/4, and the unit roster and mode of play is another 1/4) Seeing as each lord is essentially a faction in the terms of Rome II and Attila, that seems equivalent to them giving us a faction like the FreeLC faction of the Empire of the Sands DLC they released for Attila. And since the Chaos faction has one more lord than the main 4 anyway, I say that sounds pretty **** reasonable.

    Secondly, the car analogy only works if you are getting it and are being sold (based on the commericals) that you're going to get a v8. But then when you get there they say that the v8 model is for people who pre-purchase in advance of coming, or an upgrade for another extra fee.

    ALSO I'm fairly sure that car manufacturing costs a lot more than creating a code that can literally be copied and sold individually an infinite amount of times at no cost.

    1. Whether it's 90% or 50% or whatever, it still avoids the central issue. You are asking for something that cost a lot of money to make, to be given to you for free. If it doesn't get paid for, it doesn't get made, and then everyone has nothing.

    2. The commercials, trailers, blog posts, rally points, forum posts etc never said you could play as Chaos. The specifically said who you could play (Empire, Dwarves, Greenskins, Vampire Counts,) and that's who you can play.

    3. Even simple game these days have budgets in the tens of thousands. For a game such as the current Total War titles, we are talking millions. Being able to copy the code for a game doesn't make it any cheaper than being able to copy a film. Digital distribution in real terms may cost less than manufacturing all of those CD-Roms back in the day. But the cost to make the game, film, whatever itself in the first place is a lot lot more.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.
    CraigK CA wrote:
    I think Welsh Dragon knows too much...
    "You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."
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