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Total War: WARHAMMER Dev Blog – Chaos Warriors, Pre-orders and DLC

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  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,862
    edited November 2015
    JAFFS wrote: »
    This is the truth. Ca honestly you just need to be honest, apologize and set things right. This is a chance to turn your company around for the better, dont wait another month or so. Nip it in the bud now.

    People are using their morals, its a good thing. Reward them for this. I can only imagine you guys have so much money already you can afford to do this which makes the whole cut content argument even more void :(

    Did you read the OP? They were being honest...
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    Mordreth wrote: »
    the entire, we are barely making money thing is pretty funny. I was able to google and find your financial statement for this year. From what i can tell, you've grown MASSIVELY from 2010. And you report a lower income because you pile all the money back into the company to avoid paying taxes on it.

    So yea, this is a money grab.

    They never said they are barely making money.

    Congratulations you have discovered capitalism.

    They want a return on their investments. Company's do not invest back into themselves to avoid paying taxes, primarily, they do so to continue growth or they will fizzle and die out.


    You people are laughable. "We trusted you until you announced chaos because you thought thats what people wanted to play, I'm ever pre-ordering because of this".. like...wut?

    You thought CA was doing a good job with warhammer until you found out you could play chaos as well? Now all of a sudden the game is bad? Get over yourselves.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • CoveredfiresCoveredfires Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,066
    edited November 2015
    Thanks for opening up. The issue you're having is about marketing and timing and locking any type of content behind a pre-order. It puts the risk on the customer when, unfortunately, the risk should remain with you (refund policies are no excuse, is that really your defense? Because it puts forward a possibility of gross failure). If the chaos were unlockable in the campaign but the pre-order gives you early access, completionists and collector types wouldn't feel manipulated. If you want to incentivize pre-ordering, do so with storytelling: have your writers and concept artists cook up prologue comic material, add an in depth behind-the-scenes look, add the soundtrack, provide a featurette that looks ahead as you develop assets for expansions and sequel and maybe compile some type of cinematic lore recap or games work shop documentary primer on the overarching plot of warhammer. Add miniatures or some other added value tie-in to the existing market without compromising the credibility of your content. You are asking us to pay ahead for exclusive access to representations of a fundamental threat (e.g. chaos, duh) without having yet gone at lengths to impress us with the content that actually will be in the game. Not only is the timing wrong but so is asking players to compete for compulsion points (I couldn't afford the pre-order and now my experience is incomplete compared to those who could). This is somewhat aggressive unless you clearly state that the added content is aesthetic only. You've revealed there's more to it and though we might purchase it seperately, if it's inconsequential to the core game and simultaneously requires such assets that it needs its own team, why do it? Why do it when the same money can be withheld for quality assurance and tweaking. If you have the extra money to guatantee quality and the extra is extra, then why not just add chaos as an unlockable component to reward the gamer? My question really is when did it become a good idea to execute an idea beyond your means and rest that burden on the compulsion of eager fans? The relationship between developers and gamers is one of expectations. We're very sensitive to what you project. We've been waiting quite a while for someone to pick up the warhammer license and have certain standards set by the w40k work done by relic and thq. But it doesn't mean we're desperate. There was a time before pre-order exclusives, before rushed and arbitrary DLC turned a franchise into a piecemeal cash grab. Just because it appears the norm now doesn't mean you need to adhere to it. If the first design your people came up with exploded your budget and stretched your assets so far you had to hire out, maybe that was the wrong vision. Space Marine, for the consoles, was not an original story (the themes and story arc are well known, it was just new for the console audience) and it still worked. The multiplayer didn't get a regular installment of maps. All the dlc purely aesthetic and did not impact gameplay. That game holds up to this day as fun and challenging. Even in its repitioin, its a joy. It's OK to make something contained and simple even as long as it's simply good. As archaic as the original dawn of war was, I can still appreciate its charm, a tone and style that was worth its expansions (unveiled and defined at their appripriate time after the core game had done its work). Warhammer and its community are compelled from within with hype. You don't have to hustle the market and you shouldn't water down the focus on the actual game with drama inducing DLC, Pre-order, exclusive, marketing-hocus pocus nonsense. Is the possibility of extra revenue really worth the headache? I mean that's just greed. Warhammer is a long standing franchise with infinite potential. You don't need to rush anything or bait anyone. If it looks like a cash grab, it probably is and then you'll have hell to pay if, after everything, the game itself feels short changed. After Destiny, the world is firmly aware of what a rushed, AAA sucker punch looks like. I firmly believe they got away with it and that makes certain publishers feel they can rush their developers into nonsense behavior. We don't knoiw the whole story on your end, but what does it matter when the pattern is visible. Focus on what we're paying for, focus on a complete experience, silence the distracting talk of extras that don't add anything to the immersion, knowing full well if it does so it should not be an extra. If you want to push pre-orders, use your faces and the existing lore and create hype content with passion as the theme. With these options, the "challenges" you're facing seem besides the point and the strategy you're using can only be interpreted as asking for something you havn't earned because you know gamers and fanboys are possessive by nature. Nobody wants 99% of the game though and no one wants to be coerced into spending money before they know what it's for. Spend a year showing us what's in the works. Use social media to geek out with us. Then when we're sick with hype, let us know there's something extra if we get in early. At least by then when we gloat to our friends we can gloat about what we've seen. Pre-ordering is unnecessary. People only do it when they're enticed to care about who benefits, but we will get the game regardless at some point if we want it. Don't bring up pre-orders unless you're knocking what matters out of the park or you're knocking the pre-order game out of the park. For some reason it's all about lowering expectations these days when it comes to "added value" but all that does is incentivize your customers to grow up and keep their money.

    I honestly did not read this because you do not have paragraphs. Use Paragraphs for now on.
    Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.
    Donald Trump

  • Tiberius1403Tiberius1403 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1
    edited November 2015
    First off, I want to say I love you guys and I have been waiting for this game since I played Rome 1 and Mark of Chaos back in 2006.
    Having said that, this is disappointing. I understand the reasons for pre-order bonuses and appreciate them not being DLC, however
    content that is as important and critical to the game and backdrop as this should be in the full release. Give us army painter, give us
    wargear, give us multiplayer badges. Dont cut off an entire faction! I also appreciate that you are allowing review copies before launch
    so we can decide if we want this before committing, but if you are so confident, why not make it free to people that buy in the first week
    of release rather than before? It achieves the same things for both sides without worrying people that they are not getting what they
    pay for. Also, can you blame people for the bad reception after the hot mess of Rome 2 at launch? You lost a lot of respect and support
    after that and I think you should try and win some back. I appreciate the response and it is nice to know you are listening, but I
    sincerely hope you reconsider your position here.
  • ShmeegalShmeegal Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1
    edited March 2018
    You'll never win back all the support you guys had before this debacle but it'd be a nice start if you actually kept playable chaos in the game without having to purchase dlc. Remember the recent preorder hullabaloo with Deus Ex? Take a note from their books and actually listen to the customers and go back on shady practices please, especially after the debacle that was Rome 2.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • MordrethMordreth Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,130
    edited November 2015
    They never said they are barely making money.

    Congratulations you have discovered capitalism.

    They want a return on their investments. Company's do not invest back into themselves to avoid paying taxes, primarily, they do so to continue growth or they will fizzle and die out.


    You people are laughable. "We trusted you until you announced chaos because you thought thats what people wanted to play, I'm ever pre-ordering because of this".. like...wut?

    You thought CA was doing a good job with warhammer until you found out you could play chaos as well? Now all of a sudden the game is bad? Get over yourselves.

    Buddy, this entire thread you've been putting words into peoples mouths.

    They could probably give this faction away at no charge and it would not even hurt them badly. BUT WE will never know because they would not release the nitty gritty. If this had been announced at launch, "hey guys, these are the factions, we will be rolling out X 2 months after launch Y at 4, and z at 6" this would have sat a lot better with people. They would have still grumbled though.

    You dont take the CORE antagonist of a series and get it done before the game launches and charge people for CHAOS-LITE

    I fully expected some type of bonejob for pre-order. The thing about this that really grinds gears is CA does not even have a incredible reputation compared to some of the other devs out there (blizz/projectred/bethesda) but they still got the nerve to push pre-order.

    I said it earlier, a season pass would have been a better way of doing things (than what they did and i hate season passes) provided they ANNOUCED with the pass exactly what you would get before selling it. I do buy Bf's season passes, cause they are always worth it and YOU KNOW what you are getting before hand.

    But before they tried to do ANY of these options. They need to have a release or two with no pre-order, no week two DLC and Earn some street cred again.
  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,862
    edited November 2015
    I don't know why everyone complains about Rome 2. Me and a few others I know never had a single problem. Besides does everyone just completely ignore Attila? That game's launch was really good. Hardly any bugs. People need to let go of the distant pass...
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    Mordreth wrote: »
    Buddy, this entire thread you've been putting words into peoples mouths.

    If this had been announced at launch, "hey guys, these are the factions, we will be rolling out X 2 months after launch Y at 4, and z at 6" this would have sat a lot better with people. They would have still grumbled though.

    It's true I paraphrase a lot. What they said was "hey guys these are the faction, empire, dwarfs, VCs and O&G, we've decided that for the player to get as much out of the experience as possible here is WoC as well, but it cost us extra money to make so we've made it the pre-order bonus".

    1: "They could probably give this faction away at no charge and it would not even hurt them badly. BUT WE will never know because they would not release the nitty gritty."

    Citation needed. But you expect all those people in this company to do all this work and you want it for free because you want it done differently (for free). Tell you what, we'll get the chaos pre-order/dlc for free, just have to pay for their rent and meals.

    2: "You dont take the CORE antagonist of a series and get it done before the game launches and charge people for CHAOS-LITE"

    False. The chaos-lite is free, they aren't charging people for it. But if you want the full chaos experience you have to either suck it up and pay for it, or pre-order the game.

    3: "I fully expected some type of bonejob for pre-order. The thing about this that really grinds gears is CA does not even have a incredible reputation compared to some of the other devs out there (blizz/projectred/bethesda) but they still got the nerve to push pre-order."

    When is a fully fleshed race a bonejob pre-order? They thought people would want maximum scope possible within the game as soon as possible so they decided to get WoC ready for launch. How is that a bad thing?

    Of course they are pushing pre-order. They are a business last I checked, and if you don't like it, don't pre-order. The beauty of the free market.

    4: "I said it earlier, a season pass would have been a better way of doing things (than what they did and i hate season passes) provided they ANNOUCED with the pass exactly what you would get before selling it. I do buy Bf's season passes, cause they are always worth it and YOU KNOW what you are getting before hand."

    Are you unaware that chaos is pre-order bonus? Are you unaware that this is a Total War game based on the Warhammer universe? Will there be no further information regarding the game before launch? Do you have to pre-order it 5 months before release? Daft.

    5: "But before they tried to do ANY of these options. They need to have a release or two with no pre-order, no week two DLC and Earn some street cred again."

    So you're complaining about what the pre-order is, complaining that it should be something different, then complaining that it shouldn't exist at all. Pick an arena, because frankly, CA could never pander to someone like you so I'm glad they haven't. You have just proven with this that you would never be satisfied unless they released a game at the cost of their own business because you feel some sense of entitlement and ownership over their game series.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • MordrethMordreth Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,130
    edited November 2015
    Commisar, you pretty much don't paraphrase, you put words in peoples mouths, and twist whatever they do say to what you want ignoring 40-50% of it.

    1: never said i didnt mind paying for the game, i was going to spend 72 dollars on it AFTER release.
    2: They are charging people for chaos lite, its part of the main game. Just like the legendary lords for other factions that i may not play as, they are in the game, part of the price.
    3: Its a bonejob when they are CUT OUT of the freaking game, Its a bone job when you TAKE A CORE RACE and snip them out as pre-order. This is a lotr game without mordor, a WW2 game without Germany, or a ROME2 without Carthage, or maybe rome itself.
    4:just a bunch of insults, paraphrasing.
    5:No im complaining that they dont have the cred to pull this, and that companies who have earned trust dont tend to get 36k dislikes on their videos.

    I eagerly await you taking bits and pieces of that and making it suite what you want.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    Mordreth wrote: »
    Commisar, you pretty much don't paraphrase, you put words in peoples mouths, and twist whatever they do say to what you want ignoring 40-50% of it.

    3: Its a bonejob when they are CUT OUT of the freaking game, Its a bone job when you TAKE A CORE RACE and snip them out as pre-order. This is a lotr game without mordor, a WW2 game without Germany, or a ROME2 without Carthage, or maybe rome itself.


    I eagerly await you taking bits and pieces of that and making it suite what you want.

    I'm just going to respond to this point as it is the most important issue and I don't want to write more walls of text.

    How are you failing to grasp that this is not cut content? They have literally stated they had to hire extra people to work on this content, originally having no plans for them to be in the game at launch, but thought people wanted to play WoC sooner rather than later.

    You say I take bits and pieces out and make what I want of them, and they may or may not be true. But you are blatantly ignoring the evidence put before you by CA in an attempt to campaign against the pre-order bonus.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • wraithzswraithzs Member Registered Users Posts: 65
    edited November 2015
    Mordreth wrote: »
    Commisar, you pretty much don't paraphrase, you put words in peoples mouths, and twist whatever they do say to what you want ignoring 40-50% of it.

    1: never said i didnt mind paying for the game, i was going to spend 72 dollars on it AFTER release.
    2: They are charging people for chaos lite, its part of the main game. Just like the legendary lords for other factions that i may not play as, they are in the game, part of the price.
    3: Its a bonejob when they are CUT OUT of the freaking game, Its a bone job when you TAKE A CORE RACE and snip them out as pre-order. This is a lotr game without mordor, a WW2 game without Germany, or a ROME2 without Carthage, or maybe rome itself.
    4:just a bunch of insults, paraphrasing.
    5:No im complaining that they dont have the cred to pull this, and that companies who have earned trust dont tend to get 36k dislikes on their videos.

    I eagerly await you taking bits and pieces of that and making it suite what you want.


    For all you know they might have made WOC in the first game just because they wanted chaos in the main game and not make us wait for it when they expand chaos later in the trilogy.
    That might also explain why the WOC is a horde only faction because it wasn't even suppose to be in the game to begin with and was suppose to be added later in the trilogy.
  • MordrethMordreth Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,130
    edited November 2015
    What are the top two factions from a lore perspective in WH. Which of them play pivotal roles in the end of this world.

    From my VERY brief understanding, its the empire/chaos.

    PARAPHRASING the devs, they wanted to have the Chaos planned as the Big bad guy late in the game if possible, in the trilogy if not.

    SO they got it done 6 months early........cause they were afraid they would not be able to get done in time.....

    Ultimately it comes down to this. DO you believe they hired more people to do this, or not. I don't. THey dont have the street cred anymore, not after Rome2's launch, and not after RAMMING 40$ plus of DLC in less than a month of Atillas launch.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    I understand using the examples of Morder for Lord of the Rings or Germany for World War 2 but you're forgetting 1 very clear difference.

    The wars in those time periods happened as a direct result of the actions taken by those two parties. The wars between the Dwarfs and Vampire counts are irrelevant to the chaos invasion.

    If this game was called Total War:Storm of Chaos I would agree with you, but it's not. Because at it's core Warhammer is not about chaos, empire or any other 1 specific faction. It's about cool battles in a fantasy universe played between whoever the participants choose.
    If you are so bitter that you will not even believe CA when unlike a great many developers have recognised an issue with the fan-base and have tried to have open, honest communications. Then we have nothing left to discuss.

    They did no such ramming, you were not forced to purchase the main game or any future DLC content.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • wraithzswraithzs Member Registered Users Posts: 65
    edited November 2015
    "So in TW: Warhammer’s case, we had our four main playable races sorted, and we’ve planned for Chaos to have a big role to play later in the trilogy. But we really wanted Chaos Warriors in the main game, even without DLC – to give a big, bad end of game "boss" enemy Race for all players. But we couldn’t do that within the resources for the main game. So we added it as the pre-order incentive that also gets sold on day one – making Chaos Warriors fully playable but also giving us the extra resources to add them as an Ai race for everyone."

    This is what they said not that they didn't make it in time for the first game.

    Ca Planned for Chaos to be a big role later in the trilogy but wanted chaos in the first game for that epic boss moment but didn't have the resources to make it unless they make it a preorder incentive to probably get the people who funding them "Sega" to give a bit more cash so Chaos can make it in.

    Im pretty sure if they didn't add WOC now they would have later in the trilogy anyway.
  • MordrethMordreth Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,130
    edited November 2015
    Taken from the Warhammer WIKI

    "This is a dark age, a bloody age, an age of daemons and of sorcery. It is an age of battle and death, and of the world's ending. Amidst all of the fire, flame and fury it is a time, too, of mighty heroes, of bold deeds and great courage. At the heart of the Old World sprawls the Empire, the largest and most powerful of the human realms. Known for its engineers, sorcerers, traders and soldiers, it is a land of great mountains, mighty rivers, dark forests and vast cities. And from his throne in Altdorf reigns the Emperor Karl Franz, sacred descendant of the founder of these lands, Sigmar, and wielder of his magical warhammer. But these are far from civilised times. Across the length and breadth of the Old World, from the knightly palaces of Bretonnia to ice-bound Kislev in the far north, come rumblings of war. In the towering World's Edge Mountains, the Orc tribes are gathering for another assault. Bandits and renegades harry the wild southern lands of the Border Princes. There are rumours of rat-things, the Skaven, emerging from the sewers and swamps across the land. And from the northern wildernesses there is the ever-present threat of Chaos, of daemons and beastmen corrupted by the foul powers of the Dark Gods. As the time of battle draws ever near, the Empire needs heroes like never before."
    —Prologue

    THE FIRST **** THING mentioned has to do with Chaos, the second EMPIRE. And the final after the tension build, CHAOS. It is about chaos, the big realm divide mechanic is the mother of all baddies, a Chaos world ender?

    Chaos, should have been in the base game, or used as the pre-eminant (included) BAD GUY faction for the second game.

    Dude, there was DLC ramming. Week 1 DLC, Week 2 DLC, Week 3 DLC. IF i made insurance claims like CA released DLC in the first month of Atilla i would be under investigation.

    *EDIT Oh as a bonus, on the warhammer WIKI, the backround, on the left a Warrior of Chaos, on the right a ?Cleric/priest of signmar.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,492
    edited November 2015
    All I can say is : Thank you for taking the time to explain at length, what should have immediately been apparent to everyone.

    The only thing I don't like is this:
    Also, for TW: Warhammer we are going to be doing the same thing we did with TW: Attila. Youtubers are going to get the final game before release and can make their own Lets Plays and publish their own reviews in advance of the game going on sale.
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  • wraithzswraithzs Member Registered Users Posts: 65
    edited November 2015
    well either way with it being confirm that there will be review and letplay before the game is release it should give people enough knowledge whether they pre-order or not.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    Yeah but, so? Warhammer is about what the player makes of it. Chaos is a big bad guy, but hardly the only one.

    Maybe it's because I played the game for a decade, but I see no importance of one race over another. It's important to remember the lore is a cool bonus to the tabletop, but at it's core the tabletop is the most important thing about warhammer, and has always been so. With that said no race takes the cake, they're all cool, all relevant and all deserved to be in the first game. But sadly, money is a limiting factor. The empire vs chaos matchup is iconic, but hardly necessary to have a warhammer game.

    As if waiting two years for them to be in the second game is better than at launch...

    You act as if the DLC policy is illegal. Did they force you to buy them? No. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Not rocket science.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • FredenFreden Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 386
    edited November 2015
    Personally i do not want to be fed small faction DLC´s. I want to be fed the base game (four factions) and then fully fledged expansion packs. I will give you three examples:

    Chaos could have been in a large expansion pack together with Kislev & Norsca and the frozen wastes of the north

    Dark Elves and High Elves (and possibly Lizardmen) together with Ulthuan, Nagaroth & that southern jungle were the lizards are, could have been another expansion pack

    Brettonia, Tomb Kings, Kathay, Araby (basically the south of the old world) could have been another expansion pack.


    But you seem intent on never going pack to the age of large expansion packs and just sticking with this small DLC´s policy.I cannot see how that can give you enough breathing room that you need to do large scale introductions of huge new worlds like Ulthuan and Nagaroth that would have been possible in a large expansion pack. I want to pay alot more for large expansion packs that have been tested by independent reviewers just like the base game will be.

    I like to give credit were credit is due though, you have allowed independent reviewers to get their hands on new content and review it before release, most recently the empire of sands DLC, this is good.

    But about the Warhammer expansion packs, think: Fall of the Samurai. Big.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,492
    edited November 2015
    Yeah but, so? Warhammer is about what the player makes of it. Chaos is a big bad guy, but hardly the only one.

    Maybe it's because I played the game for a decade, but I see no importance of one race over another. It's important to remember the lore is a cool bonus to the tabletop, but at it's core the tabletop is the most important thing about warhammer, and has always been so. With that said no race takes the cake, they're all cool, all relevant and all deserved to be in the first game. But sadly, money is a limiting factor. The empire vs chaos matchup is iconic, but hardly necessary to have a warhammer game.

    As if waiting two years for them to be in the second game is better than at launch...

    You act as if the DLC policy is illegal. Did they force you to buy them? No. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Not rocket science.

    I agree with most of what you say - but as to Chaos:

    They are the big bad. The biggest bad. And most races' history have been heavily influenced by Chaos - in profound and significant ways. This is not shared with any other race, bad or not. No other race has had the same impact. To my mind they are hugely significant.
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  • NeverBackDownNeverBackDown Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,862
    edited November 2015
    I think they should make some sort of video on there YT page. More people are going to see it there than on the forum. It should help calm part of the storm... I think if they mentioned someplace people could go to vote on how to please the maximum amount of people in the video it would really help turn this around quicker.
  • hannibal939hannibal939 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2
    edited November 2015
    It is forgivable to:

    charge a higher price because
    it is a licensed universe, the license needs to be paid
    the game development is more complex because of additional plane (aerial to aerial, aerial to ground combat), which makes interaction with everything more complex
    animation is more complex, you can't use the same base skeleton for every faction.
    balancing and AI is more complex because of the different mechanics of the races.

    What is unforgivable is to think, that the community is devoid of logical reasoning.
    Based on past sales there is an expectation of a certain amount of units to be sold. At least the price of the game multiplied by that preplanned amount of units must cover the development costs and license fee
    [/B] the pertinent parts of the official CA communication:
    Bart CA:
    "So in TW: Warhammer’s case, we had our four main playable races sorted, and we’ve planned for Chaos to have a big role to play later in the trilogy. But we really wanted Chaos Warriors in the main game, even without DLC – to give a big, bad end of game "boss" enemy Race for all players. But we couldn’t do that within the resources for the main game."


    Then:

    It might not be a big spoiler, especially if you’re a fan of the lore, but suffice to say that the endgame in TW: Warhammer revolves around massive armies of Chaos Warriors, led by Archaon the Everchosen, descending on your race from the Chaos Wastes.

    As the machinations of a certain character are revealed, Archaon will arrive – just when you think your immediate worries are under control (in uniting the empire, righting your grudges or otherwise banging some ‘eads together). Your Legendary Lord will then have something epically serious to contend with.


    CA budgeted, planned the gameplay and the storyline for the 4 revealed races, hired new people to do the Chaos faction and presumably future add on DLC.
    Chaos warriors will be the endgame antagonists, but according to CA the development of the endgame storyline and antagonists has not been budgeted into the original game?
    Which means: When calculating sales price of the unit, the full development costs of the game have not been included in the calculations
    Does anyone know any company, which does not want at least to recoup the full production costs through sales?
    I dare you to name one...

    What should have happened:

    Cash maximisation variant:
    Full Chaos warriors roster with Archaon as legendary Lord as endgame antagonists included into the game
    Preorder Bonus
    Questlines for Archaon and the other legendary Lords+Chaos warriors playable.

    Goodwill maximisation variant:
    Full chaos warriors roster with Archaon as legendary lord as endgame antagonist+ Archaon as legendary lord and Chaos warriors playable included in game.
    Preorder bonus
    Additional Chaos warriors legendary lords and their questlines.

    Since Warhammer is a major fantasy tabletop franchise and the only currently developed game with fantasy tactical battles, it will be a success. Many people will "bite in the sour apple" and shell out for the game.
    Also they will buy the DLC's even while grumbling. If the gameplay is decent (doesn't even have to be good) they will probably buy the future installments also.
    Because there is nothing else on the market. And yes I will be probably one of them, because as mentioned there is nothing else out there.
    memories might fade in intensity with time, but feeling of being wronged will persist. People might think twice about buying future historical titles.

    Quite frankly, why should I buy a new Rome or Medieval with completely unhistoric unit rosters for the cultures if I have europa Barbarorum 2, Broken Crescent and other total overhaul mods for Medieavl 2, which represent the times much better.
    Especially since CA has abandoned the modding community, there is no hope of a total conversion mod like the ones mentioned for future historical games, add the current cash maximisation practices antagonising the fanbase and the future doesn'tlook so bright anymore.
    I still play the aforementioned mods, why should I choose the bland rosters and the conquer everything modus of Rome 2 when Europa Barbarorum has a much more varied and historical accurate roster with different goals for different cultures?
    (Now that they canned modding there is no chance of Europa barbarorum 3 or the next Broken Crescent conversion)
    So CA will get the money for the fantasy games trilogy and the dlc's but nothing more than that.

    Additional food for thought:

    Chaos warriors as described are not even complete with the current race pack dlc. Chaos sorcerers can choose between different Winds of Magic lores, but have no access to the respective Chaos magic.
    Since Chaos Daemons are not included, I don't see how the Marks of Chaos for the Chaos warriors can be included,since a important balance feature is that a Chaos warrior might get transformed into a IT SHALL NOT BE NAMED ARGLGLGLGLGLGl (Chaos Sp*Blam* YOU DARE) which is a daemon...
  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    edited November 2015
    All I can say is : Thank you for taking the time to explain at length, what should have immediately been apparent to everyone.

    The only thing I don't like is this:

    Quoted for great truth.

    I hope they don't delay the game just so youtubers can get review copies...that WOULD **** me off a little, making everyone else wait so the "celebrities" can play the game first would be too far.

    But otherwise yes, CA's post is logical and should be common knowledge.

    All these 1 post November 2015 accounts lol.

    Also Warhammer is NOT just about Chaos. Stop trying to pretend it must be included because "CHAOS".

    Dawn of War 2 didn't have Chaos. Sure it might be 40k but it's just Warhammer in space. Vermintide doesn't have Chaos. Plenty of books from both universes never mention nor have any Chaos in them.

    Warhammer, fantasy and 40k, is not just about Chaos. 40k is more about living in the Imperium of Man and while Warhammer fantasy books seem to have a wider range of perspectives, there are plenty where Chaos is never even talked about.

    Chaos is not required. They may be your favorite but that doesn't mean they MUST be in the game.

    If CA had wanted to they could have made the first game about the Lizardmen and the Skaven or any other combination with no Chaos.
  • TheokolesOfRomeTheokolesOfRome Senior Member The Highlands in me kilt.Registered Users Posts: 1,492
    edited November 2015
    I think they should make some sort of video on there YT page. More people are going to see it there than on the forum. It should help calm part of the storm... I think if they mentioned someplace people could go to vote on how to please the maximum amount of people in the video it would really help turn this around quicker.

    It's likely it would have garnered dislikes before it even started.
    Quoted for great truth.

    I hope they don't delay the game just so youtubers can get review copies...that WOULD **** me off a little, making everyone else wait so the "celebrities" can play the game first would be too far.

    But otherwise yes, CA's post is logical and should be common knowledge.

    All these 1 post November 2015 accounts lol.

    I wouldn't expect that it'll be delayed, just that Youtubers will get a copy same time as reviewers will.

    I don't like it for VERY selfish reasons :o
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  • zolandzoland Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 5
    edited November 2015
    There is a very simple solution to this Preorder DLC "problem". Just add something new preorder gift, dont need big thing (and of course the Chaos faction is not preorder dlc just the 5th playable race at the begining). Then the warhammer fans dont be so angry, and more people will be preorder the game.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,342
    edited November 2015
    I agree with most of what you say - but as to Chaos:

    They are the big bad. The biggest bad. And most races' history have been heavily influenced by Chaos - in profound and significant ways. This is not shared with any other race, bad or not. No other race has had the same impact. To my mind they are hugely significant.

    Let me rephrase the point. I don't actually think you could make a WW2 game without Germany, that just wouldn't make sense.

    Everyone else in Warhammer whacks the **** out of each other all the time. People act as if Warhammer cannot exist without chaos as playable.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Lord_Maximus77Lord_Maximus77 Technical Moderator Leeuwarden, NLRegistered Users, Moderators, Tech Moderators, Knights Posts: 3,357
    edited November 2015
    Notice: Offtopic discussion about the meaning of "Blackmail" removed.
    Any fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction. — Albert Einstein

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  • IturaldeIturalde Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 21
    edited November 2015
    Just wanted to say that I appreciate the honest and up-front communication on this issue. These things are always tricky and people will be upset not matter what you do. I just wanted to let you know, that for me at least the issue is much clearer now and I understand the decision process behind it.

    A big part of the problem for me was, that it was not really clear why Chaos didn't make the original four lineup, seeing as they're such an integral part of the lore of Warhammer. I have that information now and I look forward to the coming coverage on the game.

    Your sales pitch to Sega was that you can either sell the DLC for money or use it to get Pre-Orders. It's hard to wrap your head around the fact that this has the same priority for a publisher, which is probably a whole separate issue about the importance of Pre-Orders and other income generating things ahead of release like Season Passes and what not. Together with things like Kickstarter where it is the norm that you pay money long before you get the game this is a topic for another thread though.

    Once again, thank you for the clear communication, it was the right choice and I for one am placated!
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Registered Users Posts: 1,974
    edited November 2015
    Hey guys thanks for the CA input. I'd be happy to pre-order the High King edition, if it was an option in Australia. I know I am going to buy the game and all DLC anyway. Cheers
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

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  • octavian1127octavian1127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,278
    edited November 2015
    First off. thanks for officially stating what every reasonable person has 'speculated.'

    Second off, refer to 'reasonable person' and then I don't have to get banned from the forums for explaining in detail why CA is right in doing what they've done.

    Thirdly, I very much appreciate how you've presented this explanation. The tl;dr of the op boils down to 'this is the economics of the situation' followed by 'we'd love to give you all 15/16 races and a full map for free, if we could.'

    We can assign blame to SEGA all we want, but in reality it's the entire market. Every big game publisher gets bashed when they release games but nobody sits down and tries to figure out why they're ALL using the exact same practices.
    |Sith|Octavian
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