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Warhammer and feminists

SviavlediSviavledi Junior MemberPosts: 173Registered Users
edited January 2016 in The Graveyard
"In the Grim Darkness of Warhammer 40k‘s Far Future, There Are Only Men, and It’s Terrible"

"See, the lack of any real female representation in the game is a well known issue, but whenever someone tries to bring up that maybe the largest and most pervasive army in the setting should maybe stop being a No Girls Allowed club, everyone will immediately inform them that Space Marines can’t be girls. Trust me, I know. This has happened to me. Repeatedly"

https://archive.is/KzJgx

This article is mainly about 40K, but does this forum agree with James McConnaughy?
And will the Total War title get a similar response from these people upon release?
What are your thoughts? Are there* too many males in Warhammer, and is that* an issue?

I encourage you to read the whole article and comment on something you found odd or agreed with.
Remember, this might influence SEGA who then tells CA to "affirmative action" the coming titles - for better and worse.



Sargon Of Akkad also mentioned this in his latest video, if you follow him (he likes Warhammer too) and he doesn't like this article at all. (time 4:31)
Post edited by Sviavledi on
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Comments

  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,514Registered Users
    I don't think you should conflate this question with Rhodes Must Fall (a discredited political group)

    As for female representation in TW:Warhammer - I very much look forward to it. I feel the fantasy setting will free CA from the constraints of historical accuracy and allow more women to be portrayed.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • WudgluWudglu Member Da BadlandsPosts: 395Registered Users
    Urgh. Why does discussions like this need to be involved?
    Female involvement in the Warhammer Fantasy universe depends, as in real life, on respective cultures and races. It's relative.

    The Empire has a classical view on Women, since, obviously, it's based on Medieval/Renaissance Europe. There are some examples against that however - Sisters of Sigmar and various mages being women. But I don't know too much.

    Skaven are worse, being generally oppressive they don't treat women like much more than the enormous breeding grounds that they are.

    Dwarfs are somewhat like modern society. Dwarf women can pursue whatever career she desires but she's very much promoted to go for a more typical career such as housewife rather than a shieldmaiden.

    Elves of both genders seem to hold positions of high regard. I don't know much about them.


  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    From my understanding, although WHFB is inherently a male-dominated fictional setting, there are a number of key female characters - perhaps more so than in 40k - and personally I would welcome as much female representation as is suggested by the lore.

    CA is a progressive company, but they are also making it a priority to be as faithful to the lore as possible in this game. I think they will make the most of opportunities to represent women but will not start adapting the design of the game too drastically to accommodate this worthy aim.

    Other members here such as @Setrus, @IzzyStradlin and @Prophet of Sotek are much more familiar with the lore and could probably tell you about exactly how females are likely to be represented within the creative framework of this game.
  • SviavlediSviavledi Junior Member Posts: 173Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    HoneyBun said:

    I don't think you should conflate this question with Rhodes Must Fall (a discredited political group)

    As for female representation in TW:Warhammer - I very much look forward to it. I feel the fantasy setting will free CA from the constraints of historical accuracy and allow more women to be portrayed.



    I don't know what you mean by conflating this with a political group.
    Sure, Warhammer is all about heroes being one-man(or woman) armies. But there aren't many female heroes or units in Fantasy Warhammer as of now. Maybe CA will get worried and break lore if they get attacked by tumblr or something.



    Wo0d Glue said:

    Urgh. Why does discussions like this need to be involved?
    Female involvement in the Warhammer Fantasy universe depends, as in real life, on respective cultures and races. It's relative.

    The Empire has a classical view on Women, since, obviously, it's based on Medieval/Renaissance Europe. There are some examples against that however - Sisters of Sigmar and various mages being women. But I don't know too much.

    Skaven are worse, being generally oppressive they don't treat women like much more than the enormous breeding grounds that they are.

    Dwarfs are somewhat like modern society. Dwarf women can pursue whatever career she desires but she's very much promoted to go for a more typical career such as housewife rather than a shieldmaiden.

    Elves of both genders seem to hold positions of high regard. I don't know much about them.



    These discussions might impact your game. And you highlight things that might be influenced and things might start to get silly at a point.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,146Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    This has got nothing to do the Warhammer fantasy, and nothing to do with Warhammer total war.

    I don't normally say this but this thread will just divulge into an absolute fight of opposing ideologies and should be closed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Lord of RivaLord of Riva Senior Member Posts: 698Registered Users
    nooo, you guys wanted a topic i wont complain in, so here it is.

    im all for female representation, but im not in for forcing everything into a specific moral mindset. A mindset i do not agree with in a lot of ways.

    end of my input.
    imagine yourself sitting in a restaurant ordering a salad that is served with french dressing. The waiter brings it without dressing.
    so you tell the waiter "there is no french dressing in my salad, could you add some?" and then people in the room stand up and come over to your table, screaming "you entitled brat! why would you think you would get french dressing !"

    probably because they like their salads without? i dont know. but thats whats happening here.
    internet comedy at its best.
  • SviavlediSviavledi Junior Member Posts: 173Registered Users
    edited January 2016

    This has got nothing to do the Warhammer fantasy, and nothing to do with Warhammer total war.

    I don't normally say this but this thread will just divulge into an absolute fight of opposing ideologies and should be closed.


    I disagree. You may ignore this thread and leave it to people who actually want to have their say about this, that does concern Total War: Warhammer. I'm not sure why you felt the need to even respond.

    PS: I enjoyed @Lord of Riva s input.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Karnil_Vark_KhaitanKarnil_Vark_Khaitan Member Posts: 424Registered Users
    can't care less about Sargon...... And is not going to read a anything from "those" people.

    But here we are talking about 40k....... you know the grim future of oppression?
    So clearly the writer has forgot about Tau.......

    Original The emprar! designed the 20 primarchs as only males, much to objection of Malcador, who wanted some of them to be females, to decrease rivalry between them.

    And since the genetics of those space marines are based on male genes, it removes the possibilities of female space marines.
    Doesn't really mean that Female Humans are less willing to take up arms, I mean just look on Adepta Sororitas, or just on Cadian Imperial guards.

    Most races in 40k use females in battle, expect for space marines chapters (traitors included).
    There are exceptions:
    -space orcs: are only males, or in reality genderless, they just grow from spores.
    -Tyranids: genderless.
    The rest do use females.

    For warhammer fantasy, most of the same rules apply.
    Orcs grow from spores and some armies use females in battle.
    The conflict isn't in the original warhammer, as it was less about gender and genetics.

    Fun Fact:
    Chaos Warriors can be either female or males, the armour fuse with the body, so you could have females in a unit without the player knowing it. In the end the serve the one purpose the gods set them to, KILL AND DESTROY!!!!
  • DalianDalian Posts: 14Registered Users
    Sisters of the Thorn
    Wardancer Command
    Spellweaver
    Shadowdancer
    Isabella von Carstein
    Vampire Lord female
    Tomb Banshee
    Branchwraith
    Sisters of Avelorn
    Alarielle the Radiant
    Handmaiden of the Everqueen
    Sisters of Slaughter
    Morathi
    Harpies^^
    Supreme Sorceress
    Fay Enchantress
    Damsels of the Lady

    Some examples for those who are female fans.
    In my oppinion there are more as enough female representations in Warhammer Fantasy

    Cheers
  • VarintrazVarintraz Junior Member Posts: 307Registered Users
    Please no
    Warhammer is the last universe where they do not place hundreds of female characters, who do not fit just to have more females and to calm the feminists
    Worst example is the last Heroes of Might and Magic: their elves are a mix of fairies, flowers and little girls.
    Don't get me wrong if the lore is good and the character fits, like morathi, i like female characters.
    Team Lizardmen
  • koaxialkoaxial Member Posts: 170Registered Users
    edited January 2016

    This has got nothing to do the Warhammer fantasy, and nothing to do with Warhammer total war.

    I don't normally say this but this thread will just divulge into an absolute fight of opposing ideologies and should be closed.

    Exactly. Although it'll be more like people arguing against a forced implementation of females for the sake of it and the other side insulting them on a personal level for their opinion.

    Besides that it's not like there aren't any females at all, like others already wrote.
    Post edited by BillyRuffian on
  • RimgrimnerRimgrimner Member Posts: 375Registered Users
    There is plenty to garner from Warhammer via the female aspect. Although the majority will be men, because of simple biological reasons.
    "Surrender Von Raukov to me, or I will crush your city. All of Volganof will die. I swear to the gods your suffering will be great. You have a single day to decide your fate."

    —Lord Mortkin
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited January 2016

    This has got nothing to do the Warhammer fantasy, and nothing to do with Warhammer total war.

    I don't normally say this but this thread will just divulge into an absolute fight of opposing ideologies and should be closed.

    I'm with you on this, mate. The way the topic was framed is an invitation for a mudpit.

    /thread
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Karnil_Vark_KhaitanKarnil_Vark_Khaitan Member Posts: 424Registered Users
    Dalian said:

    Sisters of the Thorn
    Wardancer Command
    Spellweaver
    Shadowdancer
    Isabella von Carstein
    Vampire Lord female
    Tomb Banshee
    Branchwraith
    Sisters of Avelorn
    Alarielle the Radiant
    Handmaiden of the Everqueen
    Sisters of Slaughter
    Morathi
    Harpies^^
    Supreme Sorceress
    Fay Enchantress
    Damsels of the Lady

    Some examples for those who are female fans.
    In my oppinion there are more as enough female representations in Warhammer Fantasy

    Cheers

    Well are we even sure Harpies are female? I know the "myth" but they are hardly humanoid.
  • DalianDalian Posts: 14Registered Users
    If you go for Greek and Roman Mythology they are female Monsters.
    Dont think they are much different from Warhammer.
    Cheers
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenPosts: 18,452Registered Users
    Fredrin said:

    From my understanding, although WHFB is inherently a male-dominated fictional setting, there are a number of key female characters - perhaps more so than in 40k - and personally I would welcome as much female representation as is suggested by the lore.

    CA is a progressive company, but they are also making it a priority to be as faithful to the lore as possible in this game. I think they will make the most of opportunities to represent women but will not start adapting the design of the game too drastically to accommodate this worthy aim.

    Other members here such as @Setrus, @IzzyStradlin and @Prophet of Sotek are much more familiar with the lore and could probably tell you about exactly how females are likely to be represented within the creative framework of this game.

    Pretty much correct there, Fredrin. :)
    And of course, Sotek's video needs to be linked.

    My guess is that they're going to stick close to what's in the game, yes, heck, some of it even based on the models themselves. That means we're unlikely to see Empire lords and heroes that are female, save perhaps for the odd mage and witch hunter. (think dignitary and spy for greek factions in Rome 2)
    Meanwhile, however, elves have plenty of women in just about every strata of troops, from the levy to the elite and among the heroes as well. Vampires can be female as well, heck, one bloodline is almost exclusively women. Heck, if several LL don't turn out to be women, I'd be VERY surprised. Characters like the Fay Enchantress and Morathi are more than token women, they're cornerstones in their races and their identity.

    Ummm...15%? :tongue:

    Not sure how one can have "too many" men though, feminism isn't really about taking space from men so much as making space for women. Saying the former makes it sound like it's something against the men, which isn't true. :)

    And no, no affirmative action, please, or whatever you're saying. It's not really needed given what I said above. And that is: Women are heavily represented among certain races of the warhammer world and don't need no action to see them be in the game.

    That said, the first game looks to be somewhat sparse, if we exclude Wood Elves and Bretonnia from the equation. (Depending on how the vampires turn out, of course)
    Don't worry.
  • thesniperdevilthesniperdevil Senior Member Posts: 1,929Registered Users
    Lesser known fact about the khemri armies- most of them are women... You just can't tell anymore. ;)

    (being serious though- this topic is trying to tackle a wider problem within the games industry & I am not sure of this particular title is the best place to push the debate).
  • DalianDalian Posts: 14Registered Users
    If you guys want to know more about female in Warhammer check Loremaster_of_Sotek´s Video on YouTube.
    Women in Warhammer
    Cheers
  • Karnil_Vark_KhaitanKarnil_Vark_Khaitan Member Posts: 424Registered Users
    Dalian said:

    If you go for Greek and Roman Mythology they are female Monsters.
    Dont think they are much different from Warhammer.
    Cheers

    Ahh truth but none the less they are beast right?
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,146Registered Users
    Must....

    resist....

    urge....

    to bite....
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Lord of RivaLord of Riva Senior Member Posts: 698Registered Users

    Must....

    resist....

    urge....

    to bite....

    do it, i pray for you to the omnipotent spagetthi monster. you ahve to resist, and so do i :(
    imagine yourself sitting in a restaurant ordering a salad that is served with french dressing. The waiter brings it without dressing.
    so you tell the waiter "there is no french dressing in my salad, could you add some?" and then people in the room stand up and come over to your table, screaming "you entitled brat! why would you think you would get french dressing !"

    probably because they like their salads without? i dont know. but thats whats happening here.
    internet comedy at its best.
  • Karnil_Vark_KhaitanKarnil_Vark_Khaitan Member Posts: 424Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    Come on guys and girls it is a fun debate to talk about.

    But the opening isn't well executed if you ask me which you didn't :neutral:

    I mean if we just deleted the first post completely, and replaced it with: "So females in warhammer fantasy"
  • DalianDalian Posts: 14Registered Users
    @Karnil Vark Khaitan
    They are beautiful and pretty creatures from a Special Point of view :)
    But hey they like raw meat.So i wouldn´t try to date them.
    So yeah they are beasts.
    Cheers
  • SviavlediSviavledi Junior Member Posts: 173Registered Users

    Lesser known fact about the khemri armies- most of them are women... You just can't tell anymore. ;).

    I could, I got an education in physical anthropology ;^)

    Come on guys and girls it is a fun debate to talk about.

    But the opening isn't well executed if you ask me which you didn't :neutral:

    I mean if we just deleted the first post completely, and replaced it with: "So females in warhammer fantasy"


    I think you misunderstood the links and issues presented.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,146Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    Sviavledi said:

    Lesser known fact about the khemri armies- most of them are women... You just can't tell anymore. ;).

    I could, I got an education in physical anthropology ;^)

    I was just going to make that joke.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Karnil_Vark_KhaitanKarnil_Vark_Khaitan Member Posts: 424Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    Dalian said:

    @Karnil Vark Khaitan
    They are beautiful and pretty creatures from a Special Point of view :)
    But hey they like raw meat.So i wouldn´t try to date them.
    So yeah they are beasts.
    Cheers

    Yeah the models doesn't represent them properly, but if you look at them in warhammer online :neutral:
    Let us just say the look is a illusion, a beautiful illusion....
    Sviavledi said:

    Lesser known fact about the khemri armies- most of them are women... You just can't tell anymore. ;).

    I could, I got an education in physical anthropology ;^)

    Come on guys and girls it is a fun debate to talk about.

    But the opening isn't well executed if you ask me which you didn't :neutral:

    I mean if we just deleted the first post completely, and replaced it with: "So females in warhammer fantasy"


    I think you misunderstood the links and issues presented.
    I did not at all! you present a great debate or talk on the most fragile ground, by using 1 person without clue and sargon of "only men are best!" as a start out for a debate, I pity all people who clicked on either..... May Ereth Khial have mercy on them.
  • iBlueiBlue Member Posts: 127Registered Users
    I think using stuff like Feminism and Racial representation to attack games and get publicity is one of the most disgusting actions any self respecting rights campaigner could do.

    Games have their own worlds and their own logic. Skyrim for instance isn't really supposed to have black people, can you fault it for it? It's built upon norse mythology, far away from any african/african american influence.

    Total war is just that. A war game. Why would women campaign to be represented in bloody butchering? And the moment a poorly clothed model was released they'd cry and scream in terror. Massacring poorly clothed women? SEXIST.

    On the other hand naked, muscled barbarians butchering eachother, that's fine. That's a "real man". Bulky, fit, muscular and manly killer. Yay. Not sexist at all.


    Games exist in a realm different than real life. You can't simply apply feminism and black lives matter and asian lives matter and white lives matter and mens rights and so on to it.


    I would rue the day every single game has black people, white people, asian people represented in it and where women and men representation is split in half.

    Games are about creating worlds and narrative. Using these rights movements to limit what games can do is irresponsible and pathetic.

    Games are a creative expression of their creator. If total war doesn't want women in Warhammer than that is their choice. Nobody can make them add women. Likewise, a female tennis sports game can have no male representation whatsoever and still be acceptable.

    Feminism shouldn't be concerned about abscence of women but rather how women are portrayed.

    If total war only had women portrayed as slaves to be sold into brothels, given to the army for sexual exploitation, married off or sent to the fields than that's a cause for concern. But that won't happen.
  • FreaktouristFreaktourist Posts: 64Registered Users
    The vampire counts have a women in the TT army rooster =) .
  • BeliskBelisk Member Posts: 173Registered Users
    I have not got an issue with female representations in this game. Feel free to do it, but don't do it because of the wrong reason. Do it if it fits well with the game and the lore. Do not do it just because feminists feel they are entitled to it.
  • RevoranRevoran Member Posts: 134Registered Users
    edited January 2016
    The Empire

    The Empire is a renaissance society where women are usually not allowed to fight. Women can become battle wizards and are able to inherit property and titles in most cases.

    Bretonnia

    Bretonnia is a medieval society which values chivalry and doesn't allow women to fight. The exception is that all Bretonnia's battle wizards (called damnsels) are female.

    Greenskins

    Greenskins appear masculine but are actually genderless and may infact reproduce through spores.

    Skaven

    Skaven females are barely-intelligent bloated monsters who are enslaved and constantly give birth to more Skaven. All Skaven you will see on the battlefield are male.

    Ogre Kingdoms:

    Ogre females exist but are rarely mentioned and are almost never seen fighting. Ogres live in a primitive male-dominated society where might makes right.

    Vampire Counts:

    Many vampire characters are female including Isabella Von Carstein and Neferata. One of the five bloodlines is almost entirely female, and another three are mixed gender. However female vampires often choose not to fight on the battlefield despite being as capable as the men. There are some female units in the army such as the Coven Throne and Banshee. Zombies and ghouls can be female. There is also female human necromancers mentioned.

    Tomb Kings

    Before they became undead, the ancient Nehekharans were a patriarchal society where titles were passed from father to son. As such all the Tomb Kings warriors are male (but undead). They have one major female character: Queen Khalida, the Asp Queen.

    High Elves

    High Elves are very gender equal. A female elf can fill almost any role in society. The common elf troops (archers and spearmen) are conscripted from both genders. Two units (Handmaidens and Maiden Guard) are exclusively female. The second most powerful High Elf is the Everqueen.

    Dark Elves

    The Dark Elves are very gender equal. They don't care about gender, they respect only ruthlessness and cunning. All Dark Elf sorceresses are female. Two units (Witch Elves and Gladiators) are exclusively female. One unit (Doomfire Warlocks) are exclusively male. After the Witch King Malekith, the 2nd and 3rd most powerful Dark Elves are female: Morathi and Hellebron.

    Wood Elves

    The Wood Elves are very gender equal. Even their models have equal numbers of male and female elves. Female Wood Elves can fill any warrior role. The leader of the Wood Elves is their Queen Ariel, with the king Orion playing second fiddle since he sleeps all winter and is more of a warrior than a leader. Dryads are forest spirits which are feminine, while Treemen are masculine. Drycha, Naestra and Arahan are other important female Wood Elf characters.

    Dwarfs

    Dwarf females are very rare (many more males are born) and valuable for continuing the Dwarf race. They aren't banned from becoming warriors but you will rarely see it since forsaking her duty to her Clan would be a great dishonour. Dwarfs have great respect for women and especially their mother Goddess Valaya, it's just there isn't many women and Dwarf society is centered around Clan honour, so if a Dwarf women broke her role it would be a great shame upon the family.

    It's not that they think women are weak, it's more "we need you to breed or Dwarfs will die out as a race".

    Chaos Warriors

    If a woman can fight as well as the men (not that common with humans) then she can usually fight. No one will deny her if she's tough enough to kill them. But it's not very common. There is one major character called Valkia the Bloody who was a Norse chieftain. Some Slaanesh daemon wanted to rape her, so she cut off his head and went on an epic quest into the Chaos Wastes to bring the head to her god Khorne. When she died Khorne gave her an immortal daemonic body since she was such a **** badass.

    Daemons of Chaos

    Some Daemons appear female or androgynous/transgender (Daemonettes), but really they are entities of pure magic from another dimension. So they don't really have a gender.

    Beastmen

    Beastmen females exist but they get raped all the time to make more Beastmen. Beastmen also do the same with any human females they capture.
This discussion has been closed.