Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Im sorry but poison arrows are ridiculous and something needs to be done

skeletonguyskeletonguy Registered Users Posts: 30
So i have tried playing around with the poison arrow guys from slav cultures and my conclusion is a big nope. Its a nice idea but the poison seems to be too effective the units that are hit get instantly exhausted and stay that way for the rest of the battle as far as i can tell and the poison is supposed to cause "minor casualties" and from what i have seen the casualties are all but minor and makes elite armored units with high missile block drop dead like they are cheapest levies available. Maybe the poison arrows could be a timed ability or just needs some stat changes i dont know but as they are now i think its a bit too much.

Comments

  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,687
    I have to disagree. When defending a settlement with only the city garrison I think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

    Recently had a battle in one of the Southern settlements where I was able to defeat "three horde armies" of 15 to 20 units each with a city garrison and a small army consisting of a General, two spears, two bow and two skirmishers, all attacking on the same turn. Never been able to do that before.

    As an attacker though, well....I still working out that tactic! :)
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • skeletonguyskeletonguy Registered Users Posts: 30
    dge1 said:

    I have to disagree. When defending a settlement with only the city garrison I think they are the best thing since sliced bread.

    Recently had a battle in one of the Southern settlements where I was able to defeat "three horde armies" of 15 to 20 units each with a city garrison and a small army consisting of a General, two spears, two bow and two skirmishers, all attacking on the same turn. Never been able to do that before.

    As an attacker though, well....I still working out that tactic! :)

    Thats what i mean i think they are too effective i defended a city with just two spear levies and three slavic archers and the enemy had full stack but when they finally reached my levies half of them were dead and all of them were very tired and it was an easy win. As i said i like the idea but they need a nerf
  • WheemWheem Member Registered Users Posts: 70
    The thread-starter is absolutely correct - poison archers are ridiculous and overpowered in their current state. I read a post from WalrusJones on reddit, where he says the following:
    A single arrow landing will activate an ability on a unit that will automatically kill a random percentage of the unit, and exhaust them.
    He also mentions that the two different types of poison (one available to the generic archers, and another available to the Antean unique units) stack with one another. So I decided to do some more testing with the archers, and the results were downright silly. One unit of the generic poison archers and one unit of the Antean unique archers were able to kill half of a "Chieftain with Gedriht" unit, along with the general, IN ONE SINGLE VOLLEY.

    Having the highest health of any infantry general available? Irrelevant.
    Having high armor? Irrelevant.
    Having high block chance (tested against Herculiani Seniores' 50 missile block + another 50 from static testudo)? Completely, utterly, irrelevant.

    If you're playing the Anteans, and don't mind using units that are so brokenly overpowered, you're better off mixing your unique archers with the generic ones, rather than simply stocking up on your special units. The way poison stacking works (different ones stack, but same-type doesn't stack with itself) makes this a more effective setup. Of course, using multiple units with the same poison type will still make it quicker and easier to spread it around the battlefield.
  • nodulousnodulous Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 919
    Trying out some magic weapons for Warhammer perhaps. :)
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,622
    The poison arrows are a godsend when facing infinite Hun stacks off doom, then they become balanced :)
    Team Rome, Team Byzantium, Team Dwarfs, Team Empire, Team Bretonnia Team Grim, Team elf slayers, Team Belegar.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    While I think the exhaustion effect shouldn't be permanent, I don't mind the rest. Firing speed is one third of that of normal bows and Slavic archers can be easily defeated even by poisoned light cavalry.
  • Ognyan1Ognyan1 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 762
    edited February 2016
    I find the Poison arrows in Pro Multiplayer battles totally Weak vs all other factions.The weakest factions in the game are the slavs right now. Its not a good counter vs Cavalry and rules max 6 cav. The only viable tactic is noob box and wait for the enemy to come for you.the only strong side is their holding power and thats it.
    This is my +FrozenmenBG+'s Collector's Rome 2 Overhaul Mod Pack Edition In top 8 Highest voted Mod compilations for Rome 2 in the Steam Workshop.

    Check out The Barbarian Invasions - Overhaul Mod for the Grand Campaign with 8 New Starting dates(395ad-681ad) mod coming soon to TW: Attila. It adds several new factions to the game with their unique rosters .
  • mister-00zmister-00z Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 298
    take them and slav will be more useless then celts
  • ACWMANEACWMANE Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 790
    I think they are well balanced. Please-STOP calling out for the nerf hammer to come down on the SLavs...
    Ready for Rome 2, baby!:
    1. I5-2500k
    2. 24 GB RAM
    3. GTX 780
    4. 750 Watt PSU
  • WheemWheem Member Registered Users Posts: 70
    Anything that takes a stray arrow will be exhausted for the rest of the battle, and if hit by two different types of poison arrows (ie, against the Anteans), they're likely to see half the unit evaporate in a few seconds. And that doesn't seem broken?

    I wanted to play Celts and Slavs at release, so it's nice to finally have the Slavic factions available...but not with units that are that silly. If they need some sort of improvement(s) to counter a nerf to the poison arrows then so be it, but I don't see how anyone can seriously call the current implementation of poisoned arrows "balanced."

    PS
    When referring to balance, I'm primarily talking about single player. Things are a bit different when everyone spams cavalry, the two armies spent an identical amount of money, and no one has to worry about upkeep costs, tech, reinforcements, or conserving manpower.
  • bol14bol14 Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 825
    Ok if you're worried about single player "balance" you need to find another game. If single player as totally balanced the game would not be nearly as varied and extremely boring. So please cut it out with this idea of "single player balance"
  • WheemWheem Member Registered Users Posts: 70
    bol14 said:

    Ok if you're worried about single player "balance" you need to find another game. If single player as totally balanced the game would not be nearly as varied and extremely boring. So please cut it out with this idea of "single player balance"

    Surely you'd say it were a problem if the Franks had an infantry unit with 10,000 points in every unit stat, right? Or would you blow off everyone's concerns as long as that particular unit didn't appear in multiplayer? I've never suggested that every single faction has to be exactly as good as all the rest in every single facet of gameplay, but it's entirely possible for some things to be over the top. While the current iteration of poisoned arrows is not as absurdly over the top as an infantry with 10k melee attack, weapon damage, etc...it's still much too powerful.
  • Frederick_WilliamFrederick_William Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 789
    had a walled siege fight that was about 4500 vs 4500. Spread the fire of 2 regular poison arrow units over the various areas where the enemy was most blobed.(they were actually spread out fairly well but stray shots can still "effected" them) i believe the actual kill total was somewhere between 1500-2500(maybe more) from poison arrows alone. The archer units themselves had 14 or so kills combined on their stat sheet.

    I thought that it was only the guys hit who would die. Currently, as others pointed out, just being in the area will cause a lot of casualties. It makes armor, shields, and other stats pointless.


    I cant speak for MP but SP they are op if used right.
  • stealthnskstealthnsk Senior Member NovosibirskRegistered Users Posts: 1,166
    1. You can't tell about balance on a single unit. Moreover, there's no such thing as single-player balance. Try the Slavic nations in multiplayer and tell how many times you win.

    2. There could be some bugs (i.e. stacking poison or applying poison from missed missiles). If that's the case (didn't test myself yet), I'm sure there will be a hotfix soon.
  • skeletonguyskeletonguy Registered Users Posts: 30
    i just think it is somewhat unrealistic when heavily armored troops are in formation and the front row takes one volley where most shots hit shields and then suddenly a guy in the back row drops dead with a burst of blood also i dont like the fact that slavic archer units dont have flaming shot and are forced to use the poison shot.
  • Ognyan1Ognyan1 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 762
    Im not advocating nerfing the slavs - Im advocating buffing them
    This is my +FrozenmenBG+'s Collector's Rome 2 Overhaul Mod Pack Edition In top 8 Highest voted Mod compilations for Rome 2 in the Steam Workshop.

    Check out The Barbarian Invasions - Overhaul Mod for the Grand Campaign with 8 New Starting dates(395ad-681ad) mod coming soon to TW: Attila. It adds several new factions to the game with their unique rosters .
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572
    They are riddiculous in campaign mode. Multiplayer? Who cares? (Sorry multiplayer guys but you know CA doesnt care either)
    Slavs as a faction need more cavalry and less poison arrows... It was a nice idea but its too good.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    I think this one here should satisfy people who want those tweaks for the Slavs:

    steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=634786217
  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,959

    1. You can't tell about balance on a single unit. Moreover, there's no such thing as single-player balance. Try the Slavic nations in multiplayer and tell how many times you win.

    2. There could be some bugs (i.e. stacking poison or applying poison from missed missiles). If that's the case (didn't test myself yet), I'm sure there will be a hotfix soon.

    You can't expect poison arrows alone to balance Slavic factions and in fact it doesn't as they are STILL the weakest. Tone down the poison arrows and buff the Slavics in a couple other ways- much more interesting play then.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    In campaign they're decidedly not the weakest as they can gather huge amounts of wealth really quickly.

    And that's what counts most, considering the MP playerbase is only a dozen people or so.
  • Daniel_SDaniel_S Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 41
    edited February 2016
    I expected that poison arrows is selectable arrowhead with specific effect.
    I was even hoping for some types of poison arrowhead with different effects (not so strong).
    Such arrowhead can be interesting features because it expands the tactical possibilities.
    But its only specific unit with new but monotonous tactic. It even cant to burn forest and buildings.
    This overpowered unit makes Slavic poor roster playable but sadder because it hasnt archers with different arrowheads (exclude levy).
    Honestly Its Great idea but bad realization.
    And there are strange ability "Stealth of Hunter". How stealth can increase shooting range? Is it Moon People magic?
    Post edited by Daniel_S on
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    I found out it's possible to completely change the effect of poison arrows by manipulating two tables, special ability phases and special ability stat effect. You can untick the poison effect box to remove the permanent fatigue and the minor or major casualty boxes in the former to avoid the delayed death effect. In the latter there's actually an effect variable that can be specifically tied to light and heavy poison effects to add various debuffs of choice.

    Any suggestions what poison arrows should do? My first idea would be to slow a unit down for at least 30s.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2016
    So I've decided to add these effects:

    Light Poison Arrows

    -normal arrow damage
    -heavy shot reload time
    debuffs (30s)
    -10 morale
    -50% speed
    -50% reloading time

    Heavy Poison Arrows

    -heavy shot damage
    -heavy shot reload time
    debuffs (30s)
    -15 morale
    -50% speed
    -50% reloading time
    -25% max health

    My intention is to make poison shot a hard counter for horse archers. I've also noticed that unticking the poison box will add a gradual increase of fatigue effect to the arrows instead of a permament debuff. Guess that part's actually bugged.

    ETA:
    Put up the changes on Steam, see my thread in the mod forum.
    Post edited by TheShiroOfDalton on
  • DariosDarios Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 571
    There's nothing wrong with the Slavic archers...especially as its the ONLY military advantage they have, as they completely lack melee/shock cavalry. The name of the game for them is to survive on the steppes against overpowered Hunnic stacks, poisoned arrows the perfect counterweight. I wish that the poison effects remained with enemy armies for a few turns after the battle ended.

    In regards to MP...the Slavs are almost as bad as the Celts. Their missile units are the only thing they have in the form of equalizers and I'm totally fine with that.

    People wanted DLC Culture packs that provided a new way to play Attila, well here you go!
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    That would be like giving them an even more powerful version of the Hunnic "death" trait, can't see how that would be sensible.
  • bol14bol14 Senior Member USARegistered Users Posts: 825
    Wheem said:

    bol14 said:

    Ok if you're worried about single player "balance" you need to find another game. If single player as totally balanced the game would not be nearly as varied and extremely boring. So please cut it out with this idea of "single player balance"

    Surely you'd say it were a problem if the Franks had an infantry unit with 10,000 points in every unit stat, right? Or would you blow off everyone's concerns as long as that particular unit didn't appear in multiplayer? I've never suggested that every single faction has to be exactly as good as all the rest in every single facet of gameplay, but it's entirely possible for some things to be over the top. While the current iteration of poisoned arrows is not as absurdly over the top as an infantry with 10k melee attack, weapon damage, etc...it's still much too powerful.
    Except that thats what you're asking for whether or not you're aware of it. Balance to a player like you means everything has to be the same across the board. From testing this unit quite a bit they are clearly a good and strong unit choice but overpowered? Spare me the rhetoric please
  • WheemWheem Member Registered Users Posts: 70
    bol14 said:


    Except that thats what you're asking for whether or not you're aware of it. Balance to a player like you means everything has to be the same across the board. From testing this unit quite a bit they are clearly a good and strong unit choice but overpowered? Spare me the rhetoric please

    I'm reasonably sure that I know my own thoughts and opinions better than you do. Besides, I'm hardly the only one that thinks these archers ruin game balance in their current state; that viewpoint seems to be getting more and more widespread as people get more experience with the unit(s). They absolutely trivialize most siege defense battles, especially if you're playing the Anteans - a handful of paired up unique/generic poison archers can wipe out half an enemy stack before it even reaches the walls for crying out loud.

    The poison archers should be completely reworked, in my opinion, as it's downright silly to have the effect applied to an entire unit just because one arrow happens to clip them. I think it'd be a much better idea to remove that effect entirely, and have the arrows be "just another ammo type" that has very high base (non-armor piercing) damage, and perhaps some bonus damage vs cavalry.

    While it'd be nice for the arrows to have a somewhat reasonable debuff - perhaps something like what Ephraim_Dalton suggested - it's apparently impossible for it to only apply to the unit "only if the skin is broken," which is what Darren suggested would happen, during the pre-release live streams. Flaming and Whistling arrows apply their debuff if only a single arrow hits the unit, but those are a bit more forgivable since, 1) the debuff isn't even remotely close to being as debilitating as the poison, and 2) those effects rely more on psychological impact of having the missiles flying around nearby, rather than actually hitting and poisoning the men/animals in the unit.
  • Frederick_WilliamFrederick_William Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 789
    In regards to the poison arrows dalton, am i missing something or do both of them have the same reload time? As it would seem that the heavy shot would be the best one if they take the same amount of time to fire.( i don't recall heavy shot having less range in attila compared to rome 2.)
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited February 2016
    Well, the thing is that Poison Archers and Poison Hunters cost twice as much as their regular counterparts to recruit and maintain so I thought they should have a clear edge over their lesser brethren.

    I experimented a bit with various settings and decided to apply the max-health debuff to the lesser arrows as well, albeit a weaker one. Had a test battle, 4 Slavic Large Shields and 4 Slavic Archers + general against 4 Hunnic Lancers and 4 Mounted Hunnic Bowmen+ general to test their synergy. The Archers weakened the Lancers and blunted their charge which made them ripe for the Large Shields to kill. While they were occupied with the Lancers, my Archers fired on the Mounted Bows to supress their fire. I had to micro quite a bit because the AI kept breaking the Lancers out to attempt new charges and switch targets often. I think I'm about getting towards the right balance.
    it's apparently impossible for it to only apply to the unit "only if the skin is broken,"
    Well, if you use the max-health debuff it will only be lethal to units that are actually hit since the poison effect won't kill anything on its own.




    Post edited by TheShiroOfDalton on
Sign In or Register to comment.