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A discussion on magic

ConsueraConsuera Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 19
I really enjoy the magic in this game, but I have issues with the balance of it. Augments seem far more powerful, yet the actual spells can be used far less frequently and are only really good at disruption. When I summon a massive green giant to stomp my enemies to dust or have hundreds of flaming meteors rain down on the enemy I expect them to die, not just be blown away 20 feet unharmed, to stand back up and continue killing my units. The only good spells/augments are the ones that buff, and the direct damage ones. The breath spells don't even knock enemies back off walls and kill them during sieges which is quite disappointing. Spells like accuse and life leech are amazing at taking 50% of general's health bars with no effort, the comet of cassandora hits, people go flying like they should be dead from the fall alone, letalone the massive rock on their heads, but no. I understand CA's hesitance with magic becoming op, but with the limitations of the winds of magic, cooldowns, and the frailty of mages I think it would be safe to give aoe magic a massive buff, because buff/debuff spells and direct damage is far superior at the moment.
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Comments

  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    This would be bad as you can effectively walk your Mage up to a battle before engaging with your army. I did that once as a fight was really hard yellow bar wise and they had mortar so I used my bright Mage to take it out with fireballs before engaging. I know what you mean, it does feel like it tickles.

    The only solution I can think is maybe nerf the winds of magic so you can't get like 8 plus OP AOE spells off. If you didn't have the reserves then that would be better or they could increase the cost. Having OP AOE for 10 magic and reserves would be bad. Even then imagine if the flaming head was buffed and it swept across the line taking out half the army lol.
  • ConsueraConsuera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 19
    I usually only get 2 or 3 off before i need to wait for recharge, and even then theres a cooldown. I dont think they should instantly kill everything they touch, but everything should at least be 1% damaged at the very edge, and dead at the very center
  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    You know you can just speed time up and your pool will fill up fast and cd's to. So you could do what Isaid and wipe out half his army in like 2 minutes on fast forward. It wouldn't be so bad on multiplayer as human would be able to respond effectively but the AI doesn't work that way as they don't want to march in first as you could then whittle them down with ranged and artillery fire.
  • RybonRybon Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 59
    Magic, is for the weak willed. I don't need no stinkin Magic.
  • ConsueraConsuera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 19
    Antfunk said:

    You know you can just speed time up and your pool will fill up fast and cd's to. So you could do what Isaid and wipe out half his army in like 2 minutes on fast forward. It wouldn't be so bad on multiplayer as human would be able to respond effectively but the AI doesn't work that way as they don't want to march in first as you could then whittle them down with ranged and artillery fire.

    You know they always march in first, especially if you have the ranged advantage. Increasing speed also increases the speed at which they move too...

  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    I have never had an army March first on me yet. They always just wait. I really wish they would march first!!
  • YallahYallah Registered Users Posts: 6
    I agree a lot of magic feels quite underwhelming. Mostly the AOE spells, and most of them cost a lot magic, so it is a complete waste to cast them.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,354
    edited May 2016
    Magic is pretty well balanced. Dont mess with it and break the balance.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Helblaster_of_SigmarHelblaster_of_Sigmar Registered Users Posts: 81
    I actually like how magic is now. In fact, Empire magic in particular feels very much like what I am used to from the tabletop game. Damaging spells are simply there for redundancy: You should have far more effective damage dealing units, and then use the damaging spells as clutch bits of damage to stop a bashed up Chariot or Lord that has broken through your main battleline, or to protect your missile units from harassing skirmishers. The augment spells SHOULD be very strong because if you have no one to cast them on they are useless. If you cast them on troops that are about to break you might have wasted them completely, and if you have barely any troops left then an Augment spell probly won't save you. But a well timed Fireball to the face of a wounded Lord can save you multiple regiments of close combat troops.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,256

    Magic is pretty well balanced. Dont mess with it and break the balance.

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    No.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • Helblaster_of_SigmarHelblaster_of_Sigmar Registered Users Posts: 81
    That is the opposite of constructive discussion. I know it's the internet and trying to make people feel stupid and small is an accepted debate tactic but try to keep it in your pants eh?
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,256
    edited May 2016

    That is the opposite of constructive discussion. I know it's the internet and trying to make people feel stupid and small is an accepted debate tactic but try to keep it in your pants eh?

    When someone makes the absurd statement that "magic is pretty well balanced" I will call them out on the utter load of tripe they just spewed forth.

    You have spells like fate of bjuna. Nuff said.

    Then you have spells like burning head where I have to zoom in real close to the enemy hp bar to see if I'm actually doing damage and still can't even tell.


    It's at the point where saying "magic is balanced" is like saying the earth is flat, and then calling that constructive discussion. What a load of BS.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    edited May 2016
    Ok I just had something really weird happen. Burning head was absolutely OP. 5. - 6 of it completely wiped out 3 unites and 3 more were around 25 % health or less. Never had that happen before. I do have that kindle thing but ecven so I have had that before. It was completely melting them and even the burn damage ticks afterward was strong. The second 2 to wipe out were routing and then the burn damage just finished them.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    I don't think it needs a radical change. I would like to see more mages about, though.

    I rarely got to see magic in my Dwarf playthroughs, because there are so few wizards about - unless you fight the Undead. Most armies are led by a combat lord, and he's usually the only character about.

    Some spells are a bit much, some spells are a bit weak, but I don't feel like it's so bad that it's utterly broken....aside from FoB which is just a bit crazy and needs a real rethink. Make it area of affect, rather than a locked spell, and you're probably 90% there.
  • ConsueraConsuera Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 19
    I think that some spells are really strong while others are underwhelming, it should be evened out better
  • KayosivKayosiv Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,641

    Magic is pretty well balanced. Dont mess with it and break the balance.

    Magic balance is nothing short of atrocious. The most effective spells are the least expensive to cast and they don't even scale with unit size options. The system needs a lot of love. It's fun, but far from functional.
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  • TwitchyTwitchy Registered Users Posts: 176
    For now there is a huge bug with magic.
    if you use direct damage spells to 1 unit or heroe like spirit leach or faith of bruna.
    It depence on unit settings how much damage it will do.

    if you use those on ultra settings a unit or hero will not even loos half their health.
    On normal settings they will loos half or more health.
    on small you kill the unit or hero with 1 cast of the spell.
  • Heinrich SHeinrich S Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 9
    edited May 2016
    After doing several hours of testing I'd say Everything for Magic is fine and balanced........outside AOE Spells, they cost far too much, the damage output is meager(Except for Chain Lightning and Comet of Casandora), I was surprized how horrible purple sun is, I had it stand still in the middle of a swordsman unit the entire duration and it only did around 250 damage. You can cast Fate of Bjuna for 2 less magic and it'll wipe out half a unit's HP in 20 seconds...

    Vortex's need serious work, I mean they aren't just bad, they are beyond awful and need a buff. Okay yeah, in TT Purple Sun is insane, but here is the thing, make it extremely powerful, but make it cost Magic out the Ying Yang to balance it out. Right now, until the next patch, I will NEVER touch purple sun again, it's a waste of 15 magic, that said Lore of Death is outstanding because FoB makes up for it, seriously it's a devastating spell. I literally just spam DD spells because right now they're out performing targeting spells whilst doing more DoT and NOT requiring a skill/timed shot.

    The only thing that needs fixing IMO right now for Magic, is Vortex spells. CA has to make them worth to cast, along with the skillshot you need to actually hit your opponent. Right now, I just see no incentive.
    Post edited by Heinrich S on
  • FeralJimFeralJim Registered Users Posts: 12
    edited May 2016

    Vortex spells. CA has to make them worth to cast, along with the skillshot you need to actually hit your opponent.

    I agree with you about the Vortex spells man, it's obvious that CA fears stemming all the way back to the Alpha test that Vortexes were too strong but now they almost all literally worthless.

    The only thing that needs fixing IMO

    Try playing a custom battle with VC, setting your unit size to Ultra, and casting Invocation of Nehek on a unit and then tell me how you feel. Seriously, I think you'll be surprised Heinrich!
    "It all began on a storm-lashed night when Otto von Drak, the last of the mad von Drak Counts, lay on his death bed within the capital of Drakenhof, cursing the gods that he was without a male heir to continue on his legacy... Then, from out of the storm came the sound of wheels and pounding hooves."
  • SevenpiferSevenpifer Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 64
    edited May 2016
    FeralJim said:

    Vortex spells. CA has to make them worth to cast, along with the skillshot you need to actually hit your opponent.

    I agree with you about the Vortex spells man, it's obvious that CA fears stemming all the way back to the Alpha test that Vortexes were too strong but now they almost all literally worthless.

    The only thing that needs fixing IMO

    Try playing a custom battle with VC, setting your unit size to Ultra, and casting Invocation of Nehek on a unit and then tell me how you feel. Seriously, I think you'll be surprised Heinrich!
    Believe me, I've finished an entire Co Op campaign with my best bud as VC. Fun faction but goodness crumble is so incredibly random that it almost makes me feel like I'm playing Skaven at times. Even when my Dwarf Friends took out the AI head Vampire/Necromancer sometimes entire armies of skeletons and zombies would fight for ages after their last lord was slain, other times in identical settings they've fallen apart seconds after their master died. I'm not even mad about it because I know new games have problems and Devs need time to fix it, but as for my friend I understand why it's frustrating because it's a core undead mechanic that's just random right now. He's complained far more than I have and for good reason.

    Trust me, Lore of Death is where it's at right now. Just cast the two DD spells and you're good until the next patch. Hopefully Vortexes and Vampire centric spells are fixed by then. Vortexes just need fixing the most because I consider them *Non functional until further notice* right now.

    This is the best TW yet IMO, these are just minor problems I have but they're pretty broken ones. As you said, CA was so afraid of Vortexes being OP that it's actually made their use unnecessary entirely. Casting a Vortex right now is like getting a massive toilet paper roll made of *magic* cash and throwing it at your enemies face to distract him for 3 seconds.

  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    edited May 2016
    I wrote a separate post about burning head all of a sudden becoming ridiculously strong and wondering if it scales with level. I did around 6 casts pre main battle engage to whittle the forces down due to the fight only being about 25 % yellow bar in my favour. It wiped out one regiment and 2 more routed and then died as the burn damage finished them off and it also left 3 more regiments with circa 25 % health. I replicated a second time. All troops were brand new and hadn't been attacked before. I have the enkindle buff but had, had it for a while and never seen the like of this before. No idea what happened and will test it some more. Been to busy playing with my Demigryphs Knights and artillery :). That battle my burning Mage did over 340 kills.
  • AxelradAxelrad Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 632
    edited May 2016
    Twitchy said:

    For now there is a huge bug with magic.
    if you use direct damage spells to 1 unit or heroe like spirit leach or faith of bruna.
    It depence on unit settings how much damage it will do.

    if you use those on ultra settings a unit or hero will not even loos half their health.
    On normal settings they will loos half or more health.
    on small you kill the unit or hero with 1 cast of the spell.

    After testing things a bit, I think this is the issue.

    I've always played Total War games on ultra unit sizes, and I just thought that offensive magic in Warhammer was worthless - it does so little damage for me that it's a complete waste of energy that could otherwise be used to buff or debuff units. The AOE spells often look like they do no damage at all, despite being the most expensive magic!

    But after reading some comments on the forums, I went and tried some battles on different unit sizes. Sure enough, it appears that magic just isn't scaling properly. On smaller unit sizes, it does much more damage - enough to actually have use in battle. But on ultra, it might as well not be there.

    Hope CA is able to patch this before too long.
  • Horus168Horus168 Registered Users Posts: 578
    IMHO magic is too weak, as it always seems better to have a melee lord than a mage lord, and melee heroes always seem more effective than mages..
  • AntfunkAntfunk Registered Users Posts: 365
    The Mage equivalent lords cannot be anywhere near as good as the tank damage dealing melee counterparts and the spells they do you can just get a battle Mage. They should make different spells for the lords that actually do stuff. Give them long cool downs or something. It's going to ruin Teclis if they don't.
  • AmnorAmnor Registered Users Posts: 22
    Magic is still horribly underwhelming unfortunately... And no word from CA on any plans to fix it... :(
  • MrSuplexMrSuplex Member Registered Users Posts: 140
    Is there any way to effectively use magic? Has the scaling issue been addressed? I also play on ultra unit size, and I rarely use magic because it seems so useless. Am I missing something or is it really that bad?
  • MoritasgusMoritasgus Registered Users Posts: 744
    Mr Suplex said:

    Is there any way to effectively use magic? Has the scaling issue been addressed? I also play on ultra unit size, and I rarely use magic because it seems so useless. Am I missing something or is it really that bad?

    Not much has changed, other than a few niche spells magic is mostly used for buffing/debuffing troops so while not devastating in an attack sense its still very useful in a support sense.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited November 2016
    currently magic aswell as single model artillery suffers reduced efficiency on ultra unit sizes, you simply can't catch as many unit formations as on normal or large. AOE sizes and AOE splash damage needs higher ranges on ultra imho

    this is for all spells with AOE: buffs, debuffs, heals, bombard, direct damage, vortex and the only crowd controll spell net of amyntok

    multi model artillery could get a slight buff aswell, but it isn't such a big deal with them



    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 977
    What I also would like to see fixed, are the trees for magic.

    You know, that second point you can put, that gives you "-20% cooldown"...

    I imagine a tree like that :

    - Level 1 spells (each coming with 3 "upgrades", which give less cooldown, more power and/or time duration, etc.)
    Once you've at least 3 points in (that could mean only one full unlocked spell or 3 spells at the first level of upgrade) you can take level 2 spells.

    - Level 2 spells (work the same as before).

    - Level 3 spells (work the same as before).

    In addition, each wizard, depending on his race and his affiliation (bright, beast, life, shadow, etc.), should have special skills.

    Like a bright wizard could choose either "+3%/6%/10% damage to all his spells" OR "-10%/20/30% less cooldown to all his spells".

    A life wizard could have a skill that would improve his healing ability when using a spell like "+5%/10/15 heal".

    BM and chaos wizards could have a small yellow tree, to show they can still fight in melee for instance.

    That could help an diversify magic.
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  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,337
    There are spells that are as bad as giving 24% move speed to ONE unit. Magic us mostly useless while the good ones aren't even lore friendly because for some reason fire is the best buffing lore, death is the best debuffing lore, and beast is the best damage lore ATM.

    Really quite terrible
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