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Azhag crap starting units

WudgluWudglu MemberDa BadlandsRegistered Users Posts: 395
Originally posted this in the suggestions thread, but I'll also post it here for more to notice.

When selecting your Legendary Lord as the Greenskins, Azhag starts with units much more inferior to the ones of Grimgor Ironhide.

Azhag starts with Orc Big'uns, Goblin Spider Rider and Goblin Archer.
Grimgor starts with Black Orcs, Boar Boyz and the Doom Diver catapult.

Big'uns are good, but not much more than an Orc boy upgrade. Black Orcs however are the best Orc infantry unit, able to go toe-toe with all other infantry units in the game. The Big'un is thus compared to the Black orc, a mediocre choice.

The Goblin Spider Rider and Boar Boyz could be evenly matched. I haven't used the Spider Riders that much, but I haven't really noticed their effectiveness yet. Boar Boyz however are shock cavalry, and thus excellent with the Big'uns or Black Orcs.

Now comes the real shocker. Azhga gets the Goblin archer, Grimgor the Doom Diver. The latter is the highest of high end unit with extreme range and accuracy that in most games, kills at least 150 models; sometimes, often, more! In the meantime, the Goblin archer you can essentially recruit right from the start of the game, and even loses out to the Orc Arrer Boyz which you can get on turn two.

I suggest changing this up, to make Azhag more appealing.

Original thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/176214/azhag-crap-starting-units?new=1

Comments

  • Sonny228Sonny228 Member Registered Users Posts: 98
    I agree, I would think Azhga would have the doom diver while grimgore may have some trolls.
  • az88az88 Registered Users Posts: 3,065
    Grimgor also gets that magic banner, to make his Black Orcs into super soldiers.

    Azhag doesn't need them, though, because he's da greatest.
  • petertel123petertel123 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 842
    the non-faction leader lords seem to be a lot weaker in general, Gelt in particular seemed really underpowered to me
    Team Bretonnia
    Team Dark Elves
  • bronhomsbronhoms Registered Users Posts: 1,330
    he's got spirit leech, what more do you want

  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    Not at the start, at best at turn 20
  • GlytheGlythe Member Registered Users Posts: 115
    edited May 2016
    Azhag has the most difficult start of any commander.

    Every single other commander has either artillery or an end tier unit. I already made a post about this in the balancing area.

    That archer should really be something like a Giant.

    But that wouldn't make sense for his quest armor because you have to recruit a giant as part of his chain





    As a side note I believe you cannot complete the quest for his armor if you choose an orc shaman from the pop up IF you try to use a shaman mounted on a boar. Using one not mounted seems to work just fine.
  • corythackstoncorythackston Registered Users Posts: 67
    Yeah I agree that Grimgor should probably not get the Doom Diver, and it should be given to Azhag instead. In the Lore, Grimgor pretty much killed all the goblins in his warband instead of keeping them around after his army lost a fight, so he probably wouldn't want them around anyway. Azhag is a much more clever orc thanks to his crown, and would see the value in a unit like the Doom Diver. I think Azhag should get something like a Forest Goblin Spider Rider, a Doom Diver, and a Night Goblin Fanatic unit. These would fit pretty well with his tricky tactics backstory. Grimgor should get Black Orcs, Boar Boyz, and some sort of Savage Orc unit (since he came out of the Southern Badlands in his lore). It fits how he kinda throws tactics to the wind and just charges in.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,846
    Azhag should probably get some trolls too, or something like that, given he did sort of originally start in Troll Country.
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  • DalakhDalakh Senior Member FranceRegistered Users Posts: 1,937
    edited October 2016
    Azhag is from troll country. Replace the gobbo archers with a unit of trolls.

    PS : Just read post above, needless to say I concur.
    "We shall strike down our foes with sharp steel and cold hearts. The weak die so that the strong prevail and none shall be spared. Then and only then will our enemies know the true meaning of fear."

    — Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth
  • Kambing1956Kambing1956 Registered Users Posts: 183
    Why should they be balanced? It is just a slightly more difficult campaign. I've done Kemmler and Gelt Ungrim too.

  • YarmossYarmoss Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 6
    Don't forget about Azhag's "awesome" starting traits. While Grimgor gives buffs to Blackorks Azhag has a +10 relationship with Vampire factions..... wooooooooooooo!
  • ResiKesiResiKesi Registered Users Posts: 119
    Speek proppa, ya git!
  • FrontlinerDeltaFrontlinerDelta Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    edited October 2016
    Not to shamelessly plug myself but I actually have modded some alternate starting units for Azhag. Two versions, the difference being one has normal big uns and one has savage.

    I wish CA would update Azhag's starting units but until then....

    Linking just in case you guys are interested at all.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=736543972

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=736982844

  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    edited October 2016
    Dalakh said:

    Azhag is from troll country. Replace the gobbo archers with a unit of trolls.

    PS : Just read post above, needless to say I concur.

    I wouldn't replace the gobbo archers. Their volume of fire is pretty excellent when you use them on flanks of enemy greenskins units.

    Honestly, Azhag's starting units may not be as "cool" as Grimgor's, but they work pretty well.
  • Wargol2Wargol2 Registered Users Posts: 100
    edited October 2016
    There is no problem for me.

    Yes, Grimgor starting units are better but in the other end, Azhag got a bonus for diplomacy with vampires and he has Skullmuncha later.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,571
    Azhag is pretty bad at the start.
    Kemmler is useless the whole game.
    Balthasar Gelt is a joke the whole game.
    Ungrim is at least ok.

    Seems like the secondary lords of the starting factions are mostly useless - a baffling design choice in a game that already has less campaign factions than any TW before (even if much more diverse but come on why would they not tkae the chance to make replaying much more interesting by having interestin 2nd lords with different starting locations?)

    Chaos Lords are all pretty much ok. Of course archaon is the best by far but Kholek and Sigvald have very good starting units and are ok otherwise.
  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    sometimes things being more difficult can make it more interesting, i had a lot more fun playing with gelt than i did with karl franz
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,260
    boyfights said:

    sometimes things being more difficult can make it more interesting, i had a lot more fun playing with gelt than i did with karl franz

    Yep what he said. With Azhag that first battle is actually somewhat of a challenge.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,571
    boyfights said:

    sometimes things being more difficult can make it more interesting, i had a lot more fun playing with gelt than i did with karl franz

    Thats a valid point but here is the thing:
    Being difficult because the challenge you go through is tough = Most people likes that
    Being difficult because you got one hand tied behind your back and are blindfolded = Not everyone likes that

    If the first campaign battle for Azhag would be harder because you fight more enemies then people would appreciate that.
    If the first campaign battle is exactly the same but your guys are awful then many people dislike that.


    Its probably part of human nature. You want to be the underdog that overcomes a difficult situation but you dont want to be the guy that has difficulties doing the same thing you did easier before.
  • JavorJavor Registered Users Posts: 910
    The bonus starting units (for me at least) should contain units that you would otherwise not be able to recruit right away.

    For me, Azhag would be fine if the goblin archers were replaced with Trolls, due to him coming from Troll Country.

    Also, how come people think Ungrim is just "ok"? He's a badass slayer king, and a beast in combat! Sure, his starting units aren't as good as Thorgrim's, but that's just because Thorgrim gets hammerers.

  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    Seienchin said:

    I get what you're saying, I just think it's fine to have one campaign start that's completely hamstrung compared to the others, having both a weaker LL and a weaker starting army. I have yet to finish an azhag campaign but I'm looking forward to the challenge

    Or maybe they'll change his starting units with the dlc, who knows
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • RowYerboatRowYerboat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,005
    I agree that he could use at least one genuinely strong unit, but the fact that it is easily moddable makes it not that big of a deal.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,571

    The bonus starting units (for me at least) should contain units that you would otherwise not be able to recruit right away.

    For me, Azhag would be fine if the goblin archers were replaced with Trolls, due to him coming from Troll Country.

    Also, how come people think Ungrim is just "ok"? He's a badass slayer king, and a beast in combat! Sure, his starting units aren't as good as Thorgrim's, but that's just because Thorgrim gets hammerers.

    I might be wrong but Thorgrimm is in the end the better fighter - isnt he?
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,567
    edited October 2016
    Seienchin said:

    I might be wrong but Thorgrimm is in the end the better fighter - isnt he?

    Thorgrim has better army buffs, but the slayer king is the better individual fighter (unbreakable, armor-piercing, nearly a match for Grimgor).

    The problem with the slayer king is that slayers die fast in total war due to lack of armor (the slayer king himself actually has armor).
  • Neolucifer2000Neolucifer2000 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 956
    Wo0d Glue said:

    Originally posted this in the suggestions thread, but I'll also post it here for more to notice.

    When selecting your Legendary Lord as the Greenskins, Azhag starts with units much more inferior to the ones of Grimgor Ironhide.

    Azhag starts with Orc Big'uns, Goblin Spider Rider and Goblin Archer.
    Grimgor starts with Black Orcs, Boar Boyz and the Doom Diver catapult.

    Big'uns are good, but not much more than an Orc boy upgrade. Black Orcs however are the best Orc infantry unit, able to go toe-toe with all other infantry units in the game. The Big'un is thus compared to the Black orc, a mediocre choice.

    The Goblin Spider Rider and Boar Boyz could be evenly matched. I haven't used the Spider Riders that much, but I haven't really noticed their effectiveness yet. Boar Boyz however are shock cavalry, and thus excellent with the Big'uns or Black Orcs.

    Now comes the real shocker. Azhga gets the Goblin archer, Grimgor the Doom Diver. The latter is the highest of high end unit with extreme range and accuracy that in most games, kills at least 150 models; sometimes, often, more! In the meantime, the Goblin archer you can essentially recruit right from the start of the game, and even loses out to the Orc Arrer Boyz which you can get on turn two.

    I suggest changing this up, to make Azhag more appealing.

    Original thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/176214/azhag-crap-starting-units?new=1

    Arent you supposed to talk like a **** ork?


    Demand more love for Empire and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Built-in RoR like Hochland Long Rifles and Knightly orders! Doombull, Wargor, Ghorgon, Jabberslythe, Tuskboar chariot and God-specific Gors! #MakeOldWorldGreatAgain
  • MoritasgusMoritasgus Registered Users Posts: 744
    With the new DLC i'd expect thing to change up a little, so hopefully both sides will get a bit of a refresh.
  • WudgluWudglu Member Da BadlandsRegistered Users Posts: 395

    Wo0d Glue said:

    Originally posted this in the suggestions thread, but I'll also post it here for more to notice.

    When selecting your Legendary Lord as the Greenskins, Azhag starts with units much more inferior to the ones of Grimgor Ironhide.

    Azhag starts with Orc Big'uns, Goblin Spider Rider and Goblin Archer.
    Grimgor starts with Black Orcs, Boar Boyz and the Doom Diver catapult.

    Big'uns are good, but not much more than an Orc boy upgrade. Black Orcs however are the best Orc infantry unit, able to go toe-toe with all other infantry units in the game. The Big'un is thus compared to the Black orc, a mediocre choice.

    The Goblin Spider Rider and Boar Boyz could be evenly matched. I haven't used the Spider Riders that much, but I haven't really noticed their effectiveness yet. Boar Boyz however are shock cavalry, and thus excellent with the Big'uns or Black Orcs.

    Now comes the real shocker. Azhga gets the Goblin archer, Grimgor the Doom Diver. The latter is the highest of high end unit with extreme range and accuracy that in most games, kills at least 150 models; sometimes, often, more! In the meantime, the Goblin archer you can essentially recruit right from the start of the game, and even loses out to the Orc Arrer Boyz which you can get on turn two.

    I suggest changing this up, to make Azhag more appealing.

    Original thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/176214/azhag-crap-starting-units?new=1

    Arent you supposed to talk like a **** ork?
    Back in da old dayz oi 'ad a Gobbo tranflatin' me words for me. Real canny git, dat 'un.
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