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The new Armor mechanic in TW:W

tqhung87tqhung87 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 394
edited June 2016 in General Discussion
Many people might have know this already, but I think I should post it so more people could know it. I think it's also better to have a good understanding of the mechanic to discuss balancing :)

In previous game, armor calculation is done rolling a number between 0 and the targer's armor value. The result will subtract directly from the base damage.

In TW:W the formula has changed. Armor now reduced base damage by a percentage amount, and the lower roll cap is now 50% of the base armor value.

For example, if take the 80 value armor of Dwarf Warriors. Everytime they get hit, they will have a chance to reduce the base damage taken from the attacker by 40%-80% (AP damage will always bypass the armor anyway). Also, very tired and exhausted fatigue will reduced units' armor to 90% and 65% respectively.

How do I get this? Well, first I have to thanks AggonyDuck for bringing up the matter in a thread about high armor value. I the made a mod to test this out. I modded the Empire general to do 1000 base damage and 0 AP damage, the charge bonus value is set to 0, the lower armor roll cap and the armor when fatigued is set to 1. Then I make a battle to put 2 Empire Generals against eachother. The regular Empire General has 85 armor.

Each time they get hit, they take 146-154 damage. From the result, I can be sure that Armor in the game now reduced damage by a percentage amount, vary a little perhap.

Imo, it's much better formula than Rome 2/Attila, it allow adjustment to be made without affecting the overall balance too much like the 2 previous games.


The added damage from the charge bonus and bonus vs Infantry/Large are non-AP damage.


Post edited by tqhung87 on

Comments

  • FerritFerrit Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 107
    Interesting *cough- needs a girlfriend -cough*
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited June 2016
    interesting, does this mean that demigryph knights have with 130 armor a chance to negate 65 - 130% damage? so basicly they even out at 90-95% damage reduction against non AP, with lots of hits over 100% dealing 0 damage?

    thats better damage reduction than every single legendary lord then oO


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • North_WolfNorth_Wolf Member Reykjavik, IcelandRegistered Users Posts: 270
    Cool info, a lot of the mechanism could do with being more transparent.

    I´m still in the dark on a lot of things despite my play time.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    sorry to clarify roll a is 50% to 100% of the armours then when exhausted it's 45%(?) to 90%.


    chaos chariots where a bit of a problem with dwarfs so numbers:

    armour 90 for the chariots and 32 weapon damage for the longbeards.

    assuming they hit (75% chance?) 17.6 to 3.2 damage increasing to 19.2 (40%) to 6.0(81%) when exhausted.

    but using BGs rust(-15) a similar armed empire troop will do 20 to 8 or 22.4 to 12.8 on overcharge.


    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • Str4tegosStr4tegos Registered Users Posts: 12
    TQhung87 said:



    (AP damage will always bypass the armor anyway).

    Does this mean Units wirth Armour Piercing Attribute are way stronger than they seem referring to attack-value?

  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    WHich is part of the reason why they're broken (that and their damage is AoE) for their cost.
  • Lord_NathanaelLord_Nathanael Registered Users Posts: 1,496
    edited June 2016
    yes, armor is much more important than ever before, if these numbers are right, (to the point I would say it gets exponentially better, and should need a hardcap like RPGs have it with similar ways to scale damage reduction)

    that also means AP is even more important and highly effective against everything with armor value >0


    feel free to point out my errors, I'd like to improve my english
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    @Lord_Nathanael , you are correct. However, if the reduction goes over 100% they still take at least 1 non_AP damage :).

    @grayhat ,what empire troops did you talk about. They have different AP value so I can't be sure of that. When exhausted Chaos Chariot will have its armor reduced to 90x65% =58,5. Which mean they will take between (26x(100%-58,5%) + 6) = 16,69 to (26x(100-29,25)+6) =24,4 damage from the Longbeard. Charge also increase the weapon damage after the impact for awhile.


    @Str4tegos , the purpose of AP damage is to bypass armor reduction. However due to their slower attack and lower stats, they aren't better than regular troops against low armor target like the Giants, sometimes even worse . In the flat reduction scenario of the old games, the 30 armor value of the Giants would be enough to block most of the non-AP damage from most standard troops, thus making armor-piercing troops do far more damage in all circumstance.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    oh I see it's 65% reduction.

    So in theory when I start up my Orc campaign using goblins to exhaust the dwarfs before sending in the biguns is a proper strategy
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    I ghess that's a great way of using light cav then. Tire the enemy infantry by trolling them, charging and disengaging...
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    Also, the added damage from the charge bonus is non-AP damage.

    I haven't tested that out yet (too busy playing the game) but from my experience if the bonus vs Large/Infantry add any damage, it is also non-AP. This explain why spear unit and Slayer struggle so much to kill Demigryph while Halberd units work wonderful against them.
  • ITA_Vae_VictisITA_Vae_Victis Senior Member ItalyRegistered Users Posts: 1,642
    @TQhung87 do you have any idea how the protection granted by Shields against ranged attacks works exactly? Is that also a percentual reduction of the damage, or is it rather a chance to completely avoid taking damage altogether?

    Also, does AP damage negate Shields in any way?
  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Registered Users, Smiley Posts: 3,641
    Missile block chance is a chance to avoid taking damage at all.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394

    @TQhung87 do you have any idea how the protection granted by Shields against ranged attacks works exactly? Is that also a percentual reduction of the damage, or is it rather a chance to completely avoid taking damage altogether?

    Also, does AP damage negate Shields in any way?

    for missiles it seems a straight up 50% block all damage chance, in melee I'm not sure it does something maybe a 25% block to front troops.
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    From all the sheets that I have looked at, it seems shield doesn't provide any effect other than missile block chance.
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,534
    TQhung87 said:

    From all the sheets that I have looked at, it seems shield doesn't provide any effect other than missile block chance.

    And melee defense? :)
    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_main_vmp_inf_grave_guard_0,wh_main_vmp_inf_grave_guard_1
    Don't worry.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    Setrus said:

    TQhung87 said:

    From all the sheets that I have looked at, it seems shield doesn't provide any effect other than missile block chance.

    Melee defense now all come from the units themselves.
    That mean the Grave Guard have a base 34 melee defense, not 22 + 12 from Shield :)

  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,534
    edited June 2016
    TQhung87 said:


    That mean the Grave Guard have a base 34 melee defense, not 22 + 12 from Shield :)

    Okay, so it means grave guard has a base melee defense of 34 and those with great weapons got 34 - 12? :confused:
    I mean either way you slice it, those with a shield has more melee defense than the same version with a two-hander. :)

    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_main_dwf_inf_dwarf_warrior_0,wh_main_dwf_inf_dwarf_warrior_1
    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_main_dwf_inf_longbeards,wh_main_dwf_inf_longbeards_1
    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_dlc01_chs_inf_chaos_warriors_2,wh_main_chs_inf_chaos_warriors_0
    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_main_chs_inf_chaos_marauders_1,wh_main_chs_inf_chaos_marauders_0
    http://whenc.totalwar.com/#/unit_compare/wh_main_chs_inf_chosen_1,wh_main_chs_inf_chosen_0

    I guess you could call it coincidence, or that it's technically just CA buffing the shielded units defense without adding any boost from the shield itself...but that doesn't change the fact that those with shields are better at melee defense. :)
    Don't worry.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    edited June 2016
    @Setrus , you are right. All shielded units have more melee defense than non-shielded version. However, that's not a coincidence, they make it that way. But the defense stat is intergrated into the units themselves, not coming from the shiekd. Unlike Attila and Rome 2, Shield in WH only provide missile block chance.







    The first 5 shields in the top might be leftover from older games :). They aren't used in TW:Warhammer

    Sorry that I still use PFM. It's just more conveniant than Assembly Kit :)
    1.jpg 633.5K
    2.jpg 350.6K
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,534
    edited June 2016
    TQhung87 said:

    @Setrus , you are right. All shielded units have more melee defense than non-shielded version. However, that's not a coincidence, they make it that way. But the defense stat is intergrated into the units themselves, not coming from the shiekd. Unlike Attila and Rome 2, Shield in WH only provide missile block chance.

    Sorry that I still use PFM. It's just more conveniant than Assembly Kit :)

    Setrus said:


    I guess you could call it coincidence, or that it's technically just CA buffing the shielded units defense without adding any boost from the shield itself...but that doesn't change the fact that those with shields are better at melee defense. :)

    I know, hence the bolded part. :)

    Gameplay-wise, it makes no difference if the programming says the unit gets the boost from the shield or if it gets iut "raw", given by those giving the units their stats, in the end, shielded units have more melee defense to their great-weapon counterparts. :)

    And I know what you mean, I too still use PFM.

    I feel like we're not really discussing anything right now but semantics... :lol:
    Don't worry.
  • rhinoinsomniacrhinoinsomniac Member Registered Users Posts: 950
    there's actually two different shields as far as i can tell. the one with a bronze icon deflects 30% of missiles from the front, the silver one deflects 50% from the front


    honey will catch more flies than vinegar

    Team Lizardmen


  • DavidGilDavidGil Registered Users Posts: 38
    edited June 2016
    So, the Chaos units with over 100 armor have a chance to fully negate damage? With the exception of piercing. Reason I'm asking is their armor goes up to 115, I think, and then some lords have 100+ armor too.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 394
    DavidGil said:

    So, the Chaos units with over 100 armor have a chance to fully negate damage? With the exception of piercing. Reason I'm asking is their armor goes up to 115, I think, and then some lords have 100+ armor too.

    Yes, it's basically that. The higher the armor value the higher the chance to almost negate all damage (they still took 1 damage as I said in an earlier post)
  • DavidGilDavidGil Registered Users Posts: 38
    edited June 2016
    TQhung87 said:

    DavidGil said:

    So, the Chaos units with over 100 armor have a chance to fully negate damage? With the exception of piercing. Reason I'm asking is their armor goes up to 115, I think, and then some lords have 100+ armor too.

    Yes, it's basically that. The higher the armor value the higher the chance to almost negate all damage (they still took 1 damage as I said in an earlier post)
    Sorry, didn't notice you say that. But thanks for clearing that up. No wonder very few of them can die in battles then and, for instance, Grimgor is rather beastly.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 8,653
    TQhung87 said:

    DavidGil said:

    So, the Chaos units with over 100 armor have a chance to fully negate damage? With the exception of piercing. Reason I'm asking is their armor goes up to 115, I think, and then some lords have 100+ armor too.

    Yes, it's basically that. The higher the armor value the higher the chance to almost negate all damage (they still took 1 damage as I said in an earlier post)
    Isnt it capped at 90% like ward saves?
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
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