Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Advanced Tactics Discussion

2»

Comments

  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572
    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...
    Neither did the macedonians used cavalry backcharges nor was hammer and anvil that primitive nor any general in history so stupid to engage all his troops while cavalry was about to flank.
  • AardwolfAardwolf Registered Users Posts: 228
    Seienchin said:

    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...
    Neither did the macedonians used cavalry backcharges nor was hammer and anvil that primitive nor any general in history so stupid to engage all his troops while cavalry was about to flank.

    Uhm, maybe go read up on some history. Hammer and Anvil was used by almost everyone and alot of times to great effect, mostly as part of some other manoeuvre.
    For Sigmar! For Karl Franz! For the Empire!
    Team Empire!
    Baaaaaaagh!
    Team Beastmen!


    Check out my list of tactics (WIP) for some tactical manoeuvres and youtube channels covering tactics in Total War games:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/178520/advanced-tactics-discussion
  • YxTHE_BUTCHERxYYxTHE_BUTCHERxY Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited June 2016
    Seienchin said:

    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...
    Neither did the macedonians used cavalry backcharges nor was hammer and anvil that primitive nor any general in history so stupid to engage all his troops while cavalry was about to flank.

    In history the hammer and anvil was used a lot.

    Yes it was used by Alexander the great. You really need to get yourself educated before you write something just to feel important.

    There is no shame in not knowing information, you just need to put a bit of effort to educate yourself

    You should start reading on the battle of Cannae and the battle of Zama both used hammer and anvil tactic during the 2nd Punic wars.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572

    Seienchin said:

    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...
    Neither did the macedonians used cavalry backcharges nor was hammer and anvil that primitive nor any general in history so stupid to engage all his troops while cavalry was about to flank.

    In history the hammer and anvil was used a lot.

    Yes it was used by Alexander the great. You really need to get yourself educated before you write something just to feel important.

    There is no shame in not knowing information, you just need to put a bit of effort to educate yourself

    You should start reading on the battle of Cannae and the battle of Zama both used hammer and anvil tactic during the 2nd Punic wars.
    Yeah exactly what I was talking about...
    The macedonian did NOT backcharge the persians in any battle. I can only give that: better educate yourself back to you and neither zama nor cannae classify as hammer and anvil in a sense of "holding and then backcharging". Read about those battles again ;)
    So yeah alexander used a tactic called hammer and anvil but it was nothing like what aversge TW players think it was...
  • AardwolfAardwolf Registered Users Posts: 228
    Seienchin said:

    Seienchin said:

    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...
    Neither did the macedonians used cavalry backcharges nor was hammer and anvil that primitive nor any general in history so stupid to engage all his troops while cavalry was about to flank.

    In history the hammer and anvil was used a lot.

    Yes it was used by Alexander the great. You really need to get yourself educated before you write something just to feel important.

    There is no shame in not knowing information, you just need to put a bit of effort to educate yourself

    You should start reading on the battle of Cannae and the battle of Zama both used hammer and anvil tactic during the 2nd Punic wars.
    Yeah exactly what I was talking about...
    The macedonian did NOT backcharge the persians in any battle. I can only give that: better educate yourself back to you and neither zama nor cannae classify as hammer and anvil in a sense of "holding and then backcharging". Read about those battles again ;)
    So yeah alexander used a tactic called hammer and anvil but it was nothing like what aversge TW players think it was...
    Alexander the Great used cavalry to rear charge Persian forces at the battle of Issus. One of many examples I can give you.

    And for the sake of halting this pointless argument I will define this thread's use of Hammer and Anvil: Any action where a force flanks another force that is currently in combat.
    For Sigmar! For Karl Franz! For the Empire!
    Team Empire!
    Baaaaaaagh!
    Team Beastmen!


    Check out my list of tactics (WIP) for some tactical manoeuvres and youtube channels covering tactics in Total War games:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/178520/advanced-tactics-discussion
  • dasemudasemu Registered Users Posts: 5
    not the longer spear (saraccine) of the Macedonia phalanx was the different against the greece phalanx, the rly rly strong Cavalery Macedonia was the different. (build up from Alexanders Father Philipp II.a Elite called " hetairoi"

    so, the longer Saraccine (Spear) was only a evolution from the greece Hoplite Spear. (The Greece Phalanx use the "oblique order" tactic. But of course, Alexander have use the Hammer an Anvil tactic (a variation from the "oblique tactic") tactic in the most of hims Battle. Hold the line with the best infantery, win on one or two flanks with the best Cavalery.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_and_anvil


    so, the most of your posted tactic only different variant from the "Hammer and Anvil" tactic.

    now i know why all say, Chaos and Dwarfs are bad in MP Battle. ^^ Hammer and Anvil works only good with a strong Cavalery.

    Dont forget, Historicol, Warhammer Fantasy is near by the "Shot and Pike" Ages.

    I use for the Dwarfs variants of the swiss confederation pikesquare tactic (btw, pikesquare is a ultra offensive tactic!! not a defens...) and a variant of the spanish "tercio"(but, without Cav the Tercio is not rly good)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_square


    for the Empire i use the swedish or netherlands ordonance tactic from the 80 years/ 30 years war.
    (sorry i cant find a good wikipage for this tactic, im Germanspeaking, and in German the tactic calls lot different like in english. so in english is called "pikesquare", in german "Gevierthaufen" ^^)

    with Chaos i train the classic Romanempire tactics. (3 lines with interval between each other with average cav)

    with Greenskins and Bretonnia i will soon test the elite army tactic from the old Persians and Burgundry ( Charles the Bold )

    only Range and Cavalery units :-)


    if anyone will, i can post some screenshot from my MP Battleorders, or replays.

  • EaglePhoenixEaglePhoenix Senior Member BelgiumRegistered Users Posts: 1,270
    edited June 2016



    Team Empire!..and also tiny lil bit VC - but shhh
  • AardwolfAardwolf Registered Users Posts: 228
    Those are pretty cool @EaglePhoenix
    For Sigmar! For Karl Franz! For the Empire!
    Team Empire!
    Baaaaaaagh!
    Team Beastmen!


    Check out my list of tactics (WIP) for some tactical manoeuvres and youtube channels covering tactics in Total War games:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/178520/advanced-tactics-discussion
  • #459676#459676 Registered Users Posts: 187
    I particularly like the formation were you exposed the enemy flanks for range units to do their job. Unfortunately, it will be very difficult to pull off in multi player without some good micro skills.
  • Str4tegosStr4tegos Registered Users Posts: 12
    Seienchin said:

    Just as the thread shows TW games do not have deep/difficult tactics to offer but the execution is what maked the tactics work great or work bad or even fail if you play against humans.

    Oh and please stop using hammer and anvil as the term for tanking infantry lines combined with cavalry backcharges.
    It should be called TW AI exploitation instead...

    One good point you made is, that what works against the AI does not necessarily work against human in Onlinebattles. I used some extreme strategys like hammer and anvil against AI which worked great and lost against humans all the time with it. The Point is, humans are reasoning about what you plan and do not only react but prevent your strategy. When they see you have few archers or artillery but much infantry and cavalry they try to stop the cavalry rush.

    The thing against human is, taht simple strategys do not work. You alway must hide your plan. Hiding not with troops hidden in the wood, caus good enemys counut fast that you havent enough money and hide some tropps anywhere, but hiding your strategy with your armycomposition and formation.

    As soon i realized this my winrate in Multiplayerbattle exploded.


  • BoldElfBoldElf Registered Users Posts: 191
    This was on the total war Reddit. Its more for Empire since its about gunpowder etc but I think it could work for any faction with ranged units.

    https://imgur.com/a/NnQdt#uRh1OA0
  • Horus38#7265Horus38#7265 Registered Users Posts: 938

    *select army*

    *group*

    *form single line*

    *select group*

    *attack*


    Sad thing is, it actually works.

    This most definitely does not work in any reliable sense....
  • ZerglesZergles Member Registered Users Posts: 3,014
    With Skaven, if you monitor their leadership you can use Skurry Away to pull off some disgusting maneuvers.


    The one I am able to pull off most often is this:

    First off yes...it is sometimes more trouble than it is worth. But you can end up surrounding a key enemy unit this way. I've been able to isolate Swordmasters or Black Guard before and keep them in combat with fresh troops.

    Have a lord or hero close by with a leadership buff. Once you see your LS dropping get them close. You don't have to do it, but it makes the process easier.

    Once you see their LS reaching the Scurry Away threshold, select that particular unit or units. As soon as Scurry pops, run that unit away from their fight and if a lord or hero is close, pop their LS buff and get your Scurried unit off and to the side of the enemy. Then bring in some auxilary units or summon some. This will allow your Scurried unit (if it isn't running away into the wild blue) to quickly get onto the flank or even behind an enemy. Then you have them surrounded at least breifly. In that time period you have time to use magic. For example I use breath spells if this works, and I go for max coverage with the enemy. Even if it means nuking the unit that you were microing during Scurry.

    And you can repeat the process several times as long as you have summons or fresh troops. A lot of the time, it may not work as intended. But you can make a huge mess of the battle even if you fail to get your Scurries to stay and fight or run to where you want them.
  • Wanderer46Wanderer46 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 74
    Well I'll be darn. For most of my Total War life I've been using a tactic called "Oblique Order". Had no idea it had a name.
  • Kevin38Kevin38 Registered Users Posts: 2
    Good stuff!
Sign In or Register to comment.