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Let's talk about Chaos

swampboi69swampboi69 Registered Users Posts: 4
edited June 2016 in Balancing Discussions
Before I say anything, I should mention there have been some excellent threads already on the topic of unit balancing (chosen, knights etc.); I just wanted to add my two cents.

A few examples:
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/178562/chaos-cost-effectiveness-and-general-unit-balance#latest

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=704361604

If the dark gods are to favour this thread, I must be systematic in my approach, so I have compiled a short list of issues that I don't think have been reinforced. In other words, we all know how bad chosen are imo, but I want to bring attention to the more minor nuances; in hope of helping create a more balanced faction.

1. Missile Cavalry/ Ranged Counter - play

For a simple comparison, outriders cost the same (700g) as marauder horsemen. Now I understand that the empire is known to field far more effective and broad cavalry options; and that is fine. But without a sufficient counter we are left hopeless. The idea of a single faction being "superior" to another doesn't encourage healthy game play; dare I say even if it fits the lore.
So what should we do? Here are 3 suggestions
>Give us more flying units?
>Increase the effectiveness of burst damage magic on select units?
>Balance cost to effectiveness ratio of current cavalry units?

Should any of these points be invalid, please explain why.

2. Magic

Oh here we go. This game bemuses me at times. Archaon the ever OP rightly shafted by Jim the Witch hunter 6/10. Though Chaos is able to field effective sorcerer units, they possess no distinct advantage over their counters, yet cost more? If hero sniping is the new meta, so be it! But please...
>Increase the effectiveness of mounted (dragon) sorcerers/ increase cast range?
>Reduce Empires increased cast range?
>Increase the viability of vortex and other high cost spells eg. Flame Storm (player controlled?).
>Increase cooldowns on high DPS spells (eg. leech), and significantly increase the winds of magic cost after each use.

Again, if I'm wrong; feel free to point it out :)

3. And Finally... Archaon

I F*cking love Chaos man. I know I'm probably biased; but it truly seemed as though CA wanted Chaos to be a powerful faction. The high unit cost, exorbitant creatures and unique lords all point to the fact that CA envisioned them to be a high cost, high quality faction. Great, where do I pledge my soul?
But even so, Archaon just feels underwhelming. To assume that the physical manifestation of the Chaos gods would use the same spell book as a Blight Wizard just seems ludicrous. Furthermore, if Mr. emo sorcerer can have a flying mount, why can't I? Balance? laughable.
>Give Chaos its own unique blend of magic, or at least some valid counters to sniping.
>Give us blessings of Nurgle to make us boosted animals.
>Give us the fury of Khorne to separate Manfred's head from his spine.
>Give us a Lord worthy of Slaanesh's perverse glories.
>Oh yeah and Tzeentch... Jk I love the Birdman


Comments

  • ChipawapaChipawapa Registered Users Posts: 151
    Warriors of Chaos arent known for their flying units. In fact I think they only have Chimeras as flyers. Maybe when other races get some love to round out their rosters, Chimeras (not mounts) might come for Warriors of Chaos, but I doubt that.

    Archaon uses the same spellbook in tabletop as well, and same goes for his mount Dorgar, its the only mount he has on TT. Archaon is still a really strong duelist in melee, its too bad how they implemented melee fighting between lords, though. Melee is just a sloppy method of killing enemy lords. Something needs to be done to give melee some advantage over spamming spells from range. And here I come again to the the same thing I've been preaching since day one, please add items for heroes and lords to the multiplayer if you want melee to work. Magic doesnt scale like melee does with items, it would balance things out quite a bit.

    I agree with pretty much everything you said, except for reducing the range of empire, those cowards need all the range they can get! And I also dont understand what you mean when you say increase the magic burst damage effectiveness on select units.
  • swampboi69swampboi69 Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited June 2016
    Sorry mate maybe I should have been more specific. For the record I'm only slightly versed in the lore so I apologise for any inconsistencies w/ spells and such.

    What I mean is that the degree of magical power should vary between spell casters. We already see this with Manfred and Anzhag etc. Yet Archaon can arguably be out performed by a blight wizard on a Pegasus mount. I'm sorry if I'm not terribly specific, though I agree that melee lords are worthless for anything but fighting troops.
    I believe some of these problems may be fixed by giving him access to a flying mount; though that may not be the direction they want to go with chaos. They seem to be a sort of boots on the ground marine unit sort of army. Though they lack mobility; and oh bhoy! Do we suffer for it.

    So maybe?

    >Increase mobility of Chaos Heavy infantry?
    >Flying mounts?
    >Equalise the power of spell-casters according to cost; or increase the viability of melee lords

    Cheers for the reply mate, first post sorry for the hefty walls of text :)
  • ChipawapaChipawapa Registered Users Posts: 151
    Yes, magic in this game could use more depth. Spell casters vary from one another in TT by level. For example Mannfred is a level 6 wizard, so he has a better chance of casting his spells than a level 4 caster. And if you have 2 wizards at the same time they cant have the same spells. There are more rules that prevent spamming and general cheese with magic in TT but you can check them for yourself via google. They kind of removed the safeties that are in place to protect a player from cheesy spamming of units and spells in this game.

    We should eventually see a buff to the Chaos Dragon as a flying mount, but Archaon wont have it or any other flying mount, unless the game somehow transitions to Age of Sigmar.

    And yes, many people are currently complaining about the mobility of chaos and how they can easily be kited by stunties. The topic of speed wont go ignored for long.



  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Registered Users Posts: 4,092
    First off, your name, A+.

    Second, Archaons is one of the stronger lords in the game because of his spell arsenal. The unfortunate thing is spells are way too expensive for how much nothing they do. The lore of magic he uses is mostly damaging fire spells but very nearly all AOE magic is pitiful and NEVER worth using EVER. Until CA balanced magic across all unit size scales, we will continue to have a near useless mechanic in the game when it was supposed to be very important to battles. On the bright side, at least he isn't Sigvald.

    Third, all cavalry needs to get looked at and their role on the battlefield. Between themselves they are well balanced excepting some issues with costeffectiveness. Against anything else they underperform and its surprising to me at least.

    4. Chaos infantry have several problems. The prices are fine but I he issues are with battlefield performance. We have marauders with the bravery of a dieing goblin. They could use a leadership buff badly. Warriors and chosen don't do nearly enough damage or ranged resistance to justify their costs or their supposed role in the game. We all expected them to be uber infantry like they should be but instead they are currently delicates to mid-high tier in the grand scheme of things. Insulting really. They also all desperately need a speed boost. I realize armor is heavy but do they really need to be slower than dwarves? And why do they get tired so fast? No ranged so you're kinda forced to run at the enemy every battle. Why is it CA thought making your entire army exhausted before you get I to a fight would be a good

    Aside from problems Chaos has, its Aldo missing huge amounts of potential units and as a Chaos lover I hope CA expands the roster to truly make Chaos the ruinous army its supposed yo be (after a buff of course.
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