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The Arachnarok Spiders are too Strong and too Cheap

TwOldyTwOldy Registered Users Posts: 30
edited July 2016 in General Discussion
Ok the spiders for the green skins are too Strong and they Cost nothing to get into battle... no other unit can take out these spiders in single combat in the game (tried with vamp tg and chaos giants). they are too cheap to recruit I've created a set up that is literary almost unbeatable! try it with vs ai and ull still have a hard time. (Azgard/Goblin Big Boss/6x orc big uns/ 2x forest spider goblins/ 2x forest spider goblin archers / 2x Arachnarok Spider. And the issue is this is going to make less people play the online aspect of the game... the community is already dropping drastically so there needs to be a quick balance...

Now Team TW if the issue is because these guys are so op is because the Green Skins dont really have a proper anti large... then what you do is u add it to those savage orcs. Lore aside i really think it makes sense if savage orcs is anti large and make the savage orc archers armor piercing. because these Spiders are impossible to kill especially if they can be support with so many high tier units.
Post edited by TwOldy on

Comments

  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    edited July 2016
    Uh...
    No, you're wrong.

    Many things can easily take down the araknarok. It isn't that good VS big guys, so anti-big guys big guys take it down ratehr easily. It's jsut good because it has armour which helps it wreck infantry.

    They cost 2000 which is one of the higest costs, they are easy to hit with ranged units because they're so large and tall.

    Really, the arachnarok isn't an issue. It's actually, IMO, the most balanced big monster.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,745
    edited July 2016
    I think what he's trying to say is that he thinks against orks the arachnarok is quite powerful.

    Sad to say my friend that the Arachnarok isn't considered cheap, or overpowered. It's actually rather easy to deal with, since ranged with armour piercing (e.g thunderers) kills it quite quickly, monsters with armour piercing will kill it, and demigryphs with halberds will kill it without issue.

    It's a powerful unit, but for its price it's nicely balanced.
    Post edited by Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 on
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  • ShintaiShintai Member Registered Users Posts: 117
    They are perhaps the single best unit there is. However, their leadership isn't that high. But there is a counter for everything.
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  • SparvierogedSparvieroged Registered Users Posts: 81
    Hey man! 1vs1 give you just an idea about the power of a unit. The game is about strategy and there is almost no strategy in 1vs1 combat.
  • GuerrilleroGuerrillero Senior Member Lusitania, SpainRegistered Users Posts: 543
    DeuZerre said:

    Uh...
    No, you're wrong.

    Many things can easily take down the araknarok. It isn't that good VS big guys, so anti-big guys big guys take it down ratehr easily. It's jsut good because it has armour which helps it wreck infantry.

    They cost 2000 which is one of the higest costs, they are easy to hit with ranged units because they're so large and tall.

    Really, the arachnarok isn't an issue. It's actually, IMO, the most balanced big monster.

    Agree
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  • JavorJavor Registered Users Posts: 910
    No, just no.

    Besides a "quick balance" won't do Jack **** for getting people to play online.
  • LordCommander#3741LordCommander#3741 Registered Users Posts: 3,227
    Done three campaigns and never even seen one (except maybe a quest battle I think).
    It's a beta.
  • RazzlieRazzlie Registered Users Posts: 41
    Thunderers absolutely shred these things, I've done it and sent them running very quickly.
  • MrRaTmAnMrRaTmAn Registered Users Posts: 181
    Arachnaroks, as well as pretty much any other monster unit in the game, is very far from "strong" buddy, especially in multiplayer. These units are horrendously underpowered for the most part in fact. There's simply almost no possible way for them to pay their cost back in battle (simply because they can engage only one unit in a fight), they are tremendously vulnerable to ranged fire, often deal less damage per hit than much cheaper artillery units, and on top of that cost so much that you could've instead spend it on fairly competetive infantry section.

    If anything, they need a logical buff.
    ca pls fix
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member United StatesRegistered Users Posts: 3,549
    I've found that Demigryph Knights with halberds do great work against the giant spiders as well as Orc Boar Boy Big 'Uns.
  • Canuovea#6291Canuovea#6291 Registered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 15,970
    Just watched the Prince of Macedon vs Heir of Carthage video on CA's Total War youtube. The Demis with Halberds massacred the poor spiders.

    I'd also expect Blood Knights to do well against them, maybe the ethereal units too.

    And it is true that Orc Boar Boy Big Uns have anti-large I think...
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  • DwarfMasterRaceDwarfMasterRace Registered Users Posts: 2,374
    Razzlie said:

    Thunderers absolutely shred these things, I've done it and sent them running very quickly.

    Thunderers murder everything, I love them. Harder to micro than Quarrellers but well worth getting used to, especially when facing higher tier armies. Honestly, Thunderers are probably the best value for cost unit the Dwarfs have - granted you damn sure need to protect them because while they CAN melee, they can't do so for very long.
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  • MelivoreMelivore Registered Users Posts: 159
    Aye im sorry to say being a big fan playing orcs the spider is not op even in the slightest i always have to micro manage mine as anything anti large or range will just obliterate it in seconds if im not careful, as for the cost there not cheap in the slightest.
  • seienchinseienchin Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,572
    On huge they are OP on large they are underpowered. Just like giants.
    On huge giants rock everything - never lost a game with 2-3 giants.

    On large (quick battles) I would maximal use 1. With over 11.000 jp on huge they are unbeatable in cc because they still cant be Attacked by more guys than before and they block enemies from striking back with their attacks.
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,058
    edited July 2016
    Its poison and knockdown makes it better than most huge monsters against anti-large infantry, which might be a bit misleading. It is however also a huge target and one of the easiest monsters to kill with ranged units.

    As others have said it is perhaps the most well balanced monster unit. It gives good value for the money, but its weakness is: "Here comes a monster!"

    Let's be honest though, it is basically an elephant and that's how you should use it. That's why its neither overpowered nor underpowered.
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  • VickValoureVickValoure Junior Member Atlanta,GaRegistered Users Posts: 224
    Sorry, ur wrong about this one.
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    a comment abve strck me as very amusing. He said that big monsters were useless, in short.

    No, they are far from useless. They may not directly pay theselves back in terms of kills, but they redirect a lot of the enemy's ressources. Send them against grunts, things that are supposed to hold the line against infantry, and these grunts will be sent flying, while their general will suddenly divert a lot of troops to fight it, troops that would be better elsewhere.

    If you've done your job properly (fought off their ranged units, keeping their cavalry busy), they'll have to send halberds and heavy weapons that would be much better trying to kill your heavy infantry.

    They're a force multiplier, not i win buttons.
  • MrRaTmAnMrRaTmAn Registered Users Posts: 181
    DeuZerre said:

    a comment abve strck me as very amusing. He said that big monsters were useless, in short.

    No, they are far from useless. They may not directly pay theselves back in terms of kills, but they redirect a lot of the enemy's ressources. Send them against grunts, things that are supposed to hold the line against infantry, and these grunts will be sent flying, while their general will suddenly divert a lot of troops to fight it, troops that would be better elsewhere.

    If you've done your job properly (fought off their ranged units, keeping their cavalry busy), they'll have to send halberds and heavy weapons that would be much better trying to kill your heavy infantry.

    They're a force multiplier, not i win buttons.

    Sorry, but have you actually faced anyone and won with this strategy? Or used it as of general? Nobody, even AI, will send blobs of troops just to deal with these monsters. He doesn't have to. It's a 1600-2000$ unit killing 300-400$ units. Why should enemy care about that? I mean, you have spent all that money on 1 unit, and he got for that price 3-6 units of infantry/rangers. He could've literally make a smile formation out of them just to mock you. And you couldn't respond with anything, just because you got a major number disadvantage.

    (And implying that he actually care, he would have send rangers. They'll kill these things in a matter of seconds)


    Look, I'm not getting these fact out of my thumb. I have done balancing changes and analyses throughout M2, Rome and Attila. I know how these things should work. And I really would like to see monsters actually work. But they simply don't as of current.

    But even if you don't belive me, as I may guess, look at this from this view:
    There's a reason why nobody uses them effectively in MP.
    ca pls fix
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    edited July 2016
    Huh, I am the one using them that way and winning.

    SUre, my 2000 pts unit is only killing 400-600 trash, but that's opening up holes on the formation, allowing my units to get flanking charges by simply passing through.

    I'm baffled at this mentality that a unit's worth is only measured by it's K/D efficiency. Sometimes, you send trash, fodder into an enemy unit just so that the enemy unit doesn't get where it would be really efficient. It's exactly the same there: You're using a unit to open up opportunities, not just to "kill stuff" on its own.

    An army isn't the sum of its components, but how each of these pieces interact with each other.

    In chess, the pawn is pretty trash. But a 2 pawns loss difference will generally mean that you've lost.
    There it's the same. Lose two units of dwarf warriors to my "queen" and I'll have an easy way to your "king".
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