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The "Data-mined" DLC Faction List Analysed

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  • AbonzoAbonzo Member Registered Users Posts: 322
    reading this post reminded me of toxicity by system of a down.
    I have enjoyed total war for a long time.

    *please excuse my bad English*
  • GerdatsuGerdatsu Registered Users Posts: 7
    Nyanko73 said:

    Gerdatsu said:

    The thing that doesn't make sense for me are the exp. Races..
    The second one being most likely high elves, dark elves and lizardmen are fine.

    But all the dlc races are all in the old world and that would mean that we would get all dlc races before the second game comes out
    And that we wouldn't get any dlc races for the other games

    Seems kinda weird if you ask me

    What if the DLCs include all the DLCs of the 3 expansions? Would it make more sense then?
    Well not if they want to sell them as standalone expansions as I think they have said at some point.

    And I can't think of a game that has had dlc after the second game of said title has come out.

    And offering tomb kings as dlc for the second expansion that could be stationed around ulthuan and nagarond, when the tomb kings are south of the old world doesn't make much sense..
  • Mohawk_RoshiMohawk_Roshi Registered Users Posts: 1,767
    Earlybird said:

    I hope that Beastmen and Wood Elves are not restricted to mini campaign

    theres no reason to think they would be thats silly. Just go and read the description for Campaign Pack DLC it clearly states that the mini campaign race will be added to the main game as well.
    A WIZARD SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
  • MerciiMercii Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 946
    Cool post Gator. Seen this info previously but hadn't thought about the quest battle start pos indicating playable.

    Also your post is what I want to hear. I like being told what I want to hear.

    I had one question - you explained the "qb" suffix indicates "a copy of a faction used in a quest battle".

    Why do we think that? I had assumed the objects with the "qb" suffix were the blue circles that mark the QBs on the campaign map rather than units.

    As in they represent the actual battle, so only factions that actually have QBs would have those...I thought.
    MercytheMad on Youtube
  • epic_159733007811cHJwei4epic_159733007811cHJwei4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,549
    Earlybird said:

    I hope that Beastmen and Wood Elves are not restricted to mini campaign

    Nah, they've said a campaign pack will add both a mini-campaign and the race it features to the main campaign.
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201
    Nice post

    So if I read this correctly WoC & Brets do not have any DLC tags so at the moment the furthest we are along the DLC trail is DLC01 (Blood & Gore). And this assumes that Blood & Gore is actually counted on the DLC counter.

    Could we end up with 2-3 mini campaigns before Beastmen hit? (plus I assume Brets being fully fleshed out)

    There is no way Kislev will be DLC before other major factions surely

  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 401
    Blood & Gore is actually DLC 2.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    Ignoring the general speculation about how things have changed or not and why we should start hiring spies to infiltrate CA, I'm quite interested in the wood elf mini campaign:
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_aquitaine
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_bastonne
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_brionne
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_bordeleaux
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_bretonnia_rebels
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_bretonnia_separatists
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_carcassonne
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_gisoreux
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_montfort
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_parravon
    wh_dlc05_brt_mini_quenelles
    wh_dlc05_bst_mini_morghur_herd
    wh_dlc05_bst_mini_morghur_herd_rebels
    wh_dlc05_bst_mini_morghur_herd_separatists
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_deff_grindaz
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_deff_grindaz_waaagh
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_greenskin_rebels
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_greenskin_rebels_waaagh
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_greenskin_separatists
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_greenskin_separatists_waaagh
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_skullsmasherz
    wh_dlc05_grn_mini_skullsmasherz_waaagh
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_anmyr
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_argwylon
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_arranoc
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_atylwyth
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_cavaroc
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_cythral
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_fyr_darric
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_modryn
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_talsyn
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_tirsyth
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_torgovann
    wh_dlc05_wef_mini_wydrioth
    wh_dlc05_wef_wood_elves
    wh_dlc05_wef_wood_elves_rebels
    wh_dlc05_wef_wood_elves_separatists
    wh_dlc05_wef_wood_elves_separatists_durthu
    -morghur: The reincarnatable god king/emperor/thing of the beastmen pretty much makes this the secret war, or to be more accurate one round of it which will only end when the forest of Athel Loren is defeated or morghurs current physical self is killed.

    -brt_mini_gisoreux + brt_mini_bastonne: these two factions are right on the border with Forest of Arden which is the hiding place of morghur, add to the fact Lynonesse and Artois are missing this is likely the northern most point of the map.

    -bst herd: beastmen objective is clear, get strong fighting bretonnians before descending on AL, with plenty of room for flanking off to the side.

    -anmyr - winter hold, this is likely the first kinband to get destroyed, interestingly both "lords" are ladies so more female caracters are a must.

    -argwylon|atylwyth|arranoc|...: All twelve kindoms/high realms are present as factions other than the main wood elves which would imply that only kinless characters will be used:
    So Arial, Orion,Sisters of Twilight and all Spirit characters are up for grabs, but durthu is mentioned in the separatists section so I'm going to go for those Asari as the LLs plus they are very different from each other.

    -grn: just the run of the mill greenskins so likely something to get your teeth into while waiting from morghur
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201
    TQhung87 said:

    Blood & Gore is actually DLC 2.

    Is that from the game files?

    I am just wondering on what basis this assumption is made. Especially considering WoC are not considered DLC01
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,484
    edited July 2016
    Earlybird said:

    I hope that Beastmen and Wood Elves are not restricted to mini campaign

    Fairly sure CA stated any factions added through mini campaigns will have both factions and any new regions added to the grand campaign map.

    Aka the forest near carcassone (and west of karak norn) will probably become a new province with the release of the wood elves.

    to quote the DLC wiki:

    " Campaign Packs

    A supercharged version of a Race Pack, Campaign Packs not only contain a brand new Race for use in the Grand Campaign and Multiplayer, but also add a new Challenge Campaign to the game. Themed on an epic event from the Warhammer Lore, these self-contained Campaigns will present a distinct and challenging scenario. Contents might typically include:

    • A new Challenge Campaign featuring the Pack’s new Race; a self-contained mini-campaign, with a set of escalating victory conditions to suit both new and very experienced veteran players alike.

    Adds a new playable Race to the Grand Campaign and Multiplayer game.

    • New Legendary Lords with their own narrative quest chains, campaign bonuses and quest items.

    • New Race-specific Heroes.

    • New Lords to serve as generals.

    • New magic items and mounts.

    • New Race-specific, unique Units.

    • New Race-specific building, technology and skill trees. "
  • JeannotJeannot Registered Users Posts: 8
    We have already said that these files were out-of-date OMG ... stop now.
  • Skinny_dragonSkinny_dragon Registered Users Posts: 153
    I still wonder if some of the missing dlc numbers are actually the expansions given a dlc number to reference there place in the schedule the dlc numbers after each expansion could be copies of the dlcs for these games as allegedly owning future expansions would improve game 1
  • DwarfMasterRaceDwarfMasterRace Registered Users Posts: 2,374
    I just wanna point out that Chaos Dwarfs being playable is AWESOME! :smiley:
    Justice for Kiwi123, neodeinos and FungusHound, the mighty Troll Slayers.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 401
    horace35 said:



    Is that from the game files?

    I am just wondering on what basis this assumption is made. Especially considering WoC are not considered DLC01

    Yes, in the game files they call Blood & Gore/Blood Knight DLC2.


    111.jpg 240.9K
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201
    Awesome thanks :)

    Hopefully Beastmen are closer than I thought then
  • gatormarinediazgatormarinediaz Member Registered Users Posts: 416
    edited July 2016
    Earlybird said:

    I hope that Beastmen and Wood Elves are not restricted to mini campaign

    Both Beastmen and Wood Elves have mini campaign factions and a main campaign faction, so that would seem to suggest that they are will be playable. Also, CA's description of what a Campaign Pack is said that they will add a new playable to race besides just a campaign.
    horace35 said:

    Nice post

    So if I read this correctly WoC & Brets do not have any DLC tags so at the moment the furthest we are along the DLC trail is DLC01 (Blood & Gore). And this assumes that Blood & Gore is actually counted on the DLC counter.

    Could we end up with 2-3 mini campaigns before Beastmen hit? (plus I assume Brets being fully fleshed out)

    There is no way Kislev will be DLC before other major factions surely

    Not exactly. Basically the way CA normally names their factions in startpos would only include "dlc##" or "exp##" if the faction wasn't on the map from the start. For example, in Rome 2, factions that were on the map from the start that were later made playable did not have the DLC prefix, but their added units would. There are other data-mines that had Chaos related content referred to as DLC01, like the added Warriors of Chaos units.

    Additionally, FLC factions are patched-in, so no faction that's part of an FLC is likely to have any such prefix. It is possible though that they could release FLC content alongside DLC content and give it the DLC prefix, but that isn't always the way they do it.

    So DLC01 is Warriors of Chaos, DLC02 is Blood and Gore, leaving Beastmen next. Of course it's possible that they'll mix things up and give us another smaller DLC, but then they did out that statement that the next dlc (DLC03) will be much larger than the last (Blood and Gore).
    Mercii said:


    I had one question - you explained the "qb" suffix indicates "a copy of a faction used in a quest battle".

    Why do we think that? I had assumed the objects with the "qb" suffix were the blue circles that mark the QBs on the campaign map rather than units.

    As in they represent the actual battle, so only factions that actually have QBs would have those...I thought.

    Everything in the list is technically a faction. The original speculation was that QBs were the quest battles themselves, but that doesn't necessarily jive with the actual number of quest battles that factions have (Chaos has way more than three). The reason you see multiple QBs for factions is twofold: firstly it makes programming quest battles (or in previous games, historical battes) cleaner. Factions in these stand-alone battles can be separate from their campaign versions. Secondly, they can have multiple copies of the faction controlled by the player and / or the AI appear in the battle at the same time, each slightly tweaked if need be.

    They haven't always had separate factions for historical battles in every context, but they often do. It just seems to fit better that they represent the copies of the faction that appear in the quest battles than the quest battles themselves.

    Like the Empire's opening quest battle, you start out in command of a small force, but there is also another Empire force being controlled by the AI. That second Empire force is one of the QBs.

    Does that make sense?
  • DeathofjamsDeathofjams Registered Users Posts: 290
    edited July 2016
    Thanks for this @gatormarine1833, definitely the most thorough analysis of this that I've seen.

    I wouldn't read *too* much into the DLCXX numbers, since I can think of a reason why the numbers in the startpos may not be consistent with the numbers attached to DLC releases.

    We know that the status of Chaos in the game was something that had to be worked out due to funding issues. There's no confirmation in the startpos file that when this data was created, Chaos was planned as DLC01. This could be because, as gatormarine points out, factions that already exist on the map don't get a DLC number in the startpos. However, it could also be because they were not intended to be, or at least not confirmed as, a paid DLC faction; this would also explain why Bretonnia have no such prefix, as they may always have been intended as FLC (or perhaps even planned as a full release faction in the early stages of development).

    So it's possible that when these files were created Chaos wasn't confirmed as a DLC. As a result, in the original DLC plan, Blood and Gore would have been DLC01, and only would have become DLC02 once Chaos' status as first DLC was confirmed (hence why it's DLC02 in the released game). In turn, Beastmen would become DLC04, Wood Elves DLC06, etc. etc. This would leave one more currently unknown DLC to come out before Beastmen.

    Anyway, there's no reason to suggest this is any more likely than the simpler suggestions posted throughout this thread. But it's worth keeping in mind.
  • gatormarinediazgatormarinediaz Member Registered Users Posts: 416
    I am fairly certain Chaos was always going to be the DLC01, it was simply a matter of whether or not we'd get them at release that was at stake. I can't see CA rushing to put Chaos out as the first playable DLC when they were never planned to be such. Developing a game with such a massive studio just isn't that flexible. Additionally, other data-mining sources, including Steam and the unit lists, marked the added features of the Chaos DLC as DLC01. Anyone can pull up PFM and look to see that the units that were added by the Chaos DLC do have the DLCO1 tag.

    In the past they've never named factions that were already on the map with their DLC prefixes. There's no reason to. The DLC doesn't actually add the faction, it only makes it playable. The DLC prefix is saved for content that comes with the DLC. So for example, units that were added with Caesar in Gaul or one of R2's other expansions had a particular prefix related to that expansion, as did totally new factions. The factions that were simply made playable with the expansions, that already existed on the map, did not get those prefixes because they were not, strictly speaking, added.

    I hope that clarifies my thinking.

    Of course things could have changed more drastically than I thought, but we'll have to wait to find out.
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201
    Jeannot said:

    We have already said that these files were out-of-date OMG ... stop now.

    Whilst things could have changed a bit, it is pretty obvious which races we will be getting in the first game because the map tells you as much. The possibilities were:

    Beastmen (I am a bit surprised they are mooted as the first race considering their popularity)
    Brets (FLC, I assumed these would arrive first but now I am not so sure)
    Wood Elves
    Skaven (these are quite a big one to add)
    Expanded Chaos (this is obviously penciled in for later)

    Obviously Skaven seem to have been bumped into the next game as have expanded Chaos. And then we have all the units and character packs which will be lodged in-between these
  • ImmaculateDeceptionImmaculateDeception Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,073
    No it is not obvious.
  • tqhung87tqhung87 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 401
    horace35 said:



    Whilst things could have changed a bit, it is pretty obvious which races we will be getting in the first game because the map tells you as much. The possibilities were:

    Beastmen (I am a bit surprised they are mooted as the first race considering their popularity)
    Brets (FLC, I assumed these would arrive first but now I am not so sure)
    Wood Elves
    Skaven (these are quite a big one to add)
    Expanded Chaos (this is obviously penciled in for later)

    Obviously Skaven seem to have been bumped into the next game as have expanded Chaos. And then we have all the units and character packs which will be lodged in-between these

    Agree, in a game full of heavy armor units, the Beastmen would give us something fresh/different. At least, that's my hope.
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201

    No it is not obvious.

    No you're right, the first DLC is going to be High Elves. Obviously.
  • DeathofjamsDeathofjams Registered Users Posts: 290

    I am fairly certain Chaos was always going to be the DLC01, it was simply a matter of whether or not we'd get them at release that was at stake. I can't see CA rushing to put Chaos out as the first playable DLC when they were never planned to be such. Developing a game with such a massive studio just isn't that flexible.

    You're *probably* right, but I have a couple of reservations:

    Firstly we have no idea when this list was made; it could be ancient, for all we know, a placeholder put in to the startpos until they came up with firmer plans.

    Secondly, remember that Chaos were always going to be in-game; what was up for discussion was whether they'd be playable. So *most* of the work on the faction was always scheduled in. I don't think it's completely implausible that decision to finish it off was made at a later stage in the development process.

    And there is a slight sense of rushed-ness to Chaos, I think: look at Kholek only having one quest chain, for example, and the fact that some of the unique-to-dlc units being slightly lame additions like "Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons" and "Armoured Chaos Trolls.". Also the Chaos campaign is balanced a bit weirdly, especially re. things like horde growth, and definitely feels like the least polished of all the campaigns. That's purely circumstantial and subjective evidence though!

    If CA's original plan was for a Chaos-focused second expansion, I can plausibly see their original plan as holding off on Warriors of Chaos until they could provide the "full" Chaos experience. But, again, that's pure speculation.

    Additionally, other data-mining sources, including Steam and the unit lists, marked the added features of the Chaos DLC as DLC01. Anyone can pull up PFM and look to see that the units that were added by the Chaos DLC do have the DLCO1 tag.

    Yes, but all that means is that Chaos are DLC01 *now* - it doesn't mean that they were intended as such when the startpos list was made.

    I don't want to make a big thing of this - I think your answer is logical and the more likely explanation. But I just thought it was worth suggesting an alternative, anyway.
  • SiWISiWI Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,989
    There a couple of intresting questions:
    Beastmen/Woodelves timing:
    Since those two are very deeply connected with each other, is kinda hard to think that they wouldn't come at the same time.
    But since the numbering is 3 an 5, it looks like that beastmen will first focus on the empire.

    Woodelves Occupation:
    I found it unplausible that the forrest would be 3 occupation region. It would be a VERY small part of the grand campaign for 2 races to fight over.

    Either Wood Elves (as all elves) can use human cities (meaning that empire/bretonnia can conquer the forrest) or the Wood Elves are a horde.

    The 4 chaos Gods:
    this is the most well... "shocking part".
    That the 3rd expansion has exclusively Chaos Deamons is mind numbing in many ways. Completly diveded, the roster for each god are rather slim.
    Mapwise is also a strange thing:
    they could do a "immarterium" map or a the north pole, but would that really work as standalone?

    Also;
    after attracting the fans of 3-6 races at onces, they would go with the final part with only one race? That doesn't appear as plausible marketing wise.
    Ratling_Guns.gif?t=1554385892
  • horace35horace35 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 201
    Maybe they will revamp how all Chaos works in the third game, introducing proper marks and gifts and things?

    Wood Elves as a horde doesn't make much sense to me
  • gatormarinediazgatormarinediaz Member Registered Users Posts: 416

    I am fairly certain Chaos was always going to be the DLC01, it was simply a matter of whether or not we'd get them at release that was at stake. I can't see CA rushing to put Chaos out as the first playable DLC when they were never planned to be such. Developing a game with such a massive studio just isn't that flexible.

    You're *probably* right, but I have a couple of reservations:

    Firstly we have no idea when this list was made; it could be ancient, for all we know, a placeholder put in to the startpos until they came up with firmer plans.

    Secondly, remember that Chaos were always going to be in-game; what was up for discussion was whether they'd be playable. So *most* of the work on the faction was always scheduled in. I don't think it's completely implausible that decision to finish it off was made at a later stage in the development process.

    And there is a slight sense of rushed-ness to Chaos, I think: look at Kholek only having one quest chain, for example, and the fact that some of the unique-to-dlc units being slightly lame additions like "Chaos Warriors with Great Weapons" and "Armoured Chaos Trolls.". Also the Chaos campaign is balanced a bit weirdly, especially re. things like horde growth, and definitely feels like the least polished of all the campaigns. That's purely circumstantial and subjective evidence though!

    If CA's original plan was for a Chaos-focused second expansion, I can plausibly see their original plan as holding off on Warriors of Chaos until they could provide the "full" Chaos experience. But, again, that's pure speculation.

    Additionally, other data-mining sources, including Steam and the unit lists, marked the added features of the Chaos DLC as DLC01. Anyone can pull up PFM and look to see that the units that were added by the Chaos DLC do have the DLCO1 tag.

    Yes, but all that means is that Chaos are DLC01 *now* - it doesn't mean that they were intended as such when the startpos list was made.

    I don't want to make a big thing of this - I think your answer is logical and the more likely explanation. But I just thought it was worth suggesting an alternative, anyway.
    I agree on Chaos feeling rushed, and I don't think you're wrong for pointing out other interpretations. Disagreements don't need to lead to hostility, we just have different thoughts on the matter and that's completely fine. I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative.

    For what it's worth I think most of latter part of the list is basically placeholder information, the value of which being that we know these were the factions that CA planned to add at some point during the development cycle.
    SiWi said:


    Woodelves Occupation:
    I found it unplausible that the forrest would be 3 occupation region. It would be a VERY small part of the grand campaign for 2 races to fight over.

    Either Wood Elves (as all elves) can use human cities (meaning that empire/bretonnia can conquer the forrest) or the Wood Elves are a horde.

    Would it be plausible to make other forests into their own regions?
    SiWi said:


    The 4 chaos Gods:
    this is the most well... "shocking part".
    That the 3rd expansion has exclusively Chaos Deamons is mind numbing in many ways. Completly diveded, the roster for each god are rather slim.
    Mapwise is also a strange thing:
    they could do a "immarterium" map or a the north pole, but would that really work as standalone?

    Also;
    after attracting the fans of 3-6 races at onces, they would go with the final part with only one race? That doesn't appear as plausible marketing wise.

    This definitely seems strange. My guess is that these factions would include god-specific mortal units (like skullcrushers) as well as god-specific Daemons in order to fill out the rosters, but that's nothing but conjecture on my part. I have to imagine that this expansions would include something more than just Daemons, because there are definitely people who would have no interest in buying an expansion just for them (not me, I'm all about Chaos, but I know some people have no interest in playing them).
  • 1EskNineteen1EskNineteen Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 841
    I'm throwing money at the screen, but nothing's happening. :( Good work though!
    The Indomitable Gaul 2.0
  • Dual_CoRedDual_CoRed Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 184
    Hey guys, don't have time to read through this whole thread, but does it look like we'll be getting mini campaigns as opposed to expanding the map on the grand campaign? I'm really not into mini campaigns and I'm hoping they expand the main game as much as possible.
  • PetromirPetromir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,157

    Hey guys, don't have time to read through this whole thread, but does it look like we'll be getting mini campaigns as opposed to expanding the map on the grand campaign? I'm really not into mini campaigns and I'm hoping they expand the main game as much as possible.

    We are getting both as far as we know, campaign packs add mini campaigns but also the race to the main map so many races will need main map expansions either way.
  • GRAY_HATGRAY_HAT Senior Member UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,394
    SiWi said:

    There a couple of intresting questions:
    Beastmen/Woodelves timing:
    Since those two are very deeply connected with each other, is kinda hard to think that they wouldn't come at the same time.
    But since the numbering is 3 an 5, it looks like that beastmen will first focus on the empire.

    Woodelves Occupation:
    I found it unplausible that the forrest would be 3 occupation region. It would be a VERY small part of the grand campaign for 2 races to fight over.

    Either Wood Elves (as all elves) can use human cities (meaning that empire/bretonnia can conquer the forrest) or the Wood Elves are a horde.

    wood elf hatred of other races is ordered like this:
    -everyone else
    -elves
    -wood elves

    while some attempt to shoehorn a nemesis happened to push them to beastmen they really would be just as happy shooting dwarfs.

    Similar story with beastmen the overriding compulsion to turn the world back to a form of nature means it's only a side attraction of destroying AL from them


    there is room for 3 regions in AL 6 if you drop the movement speed while in there, but it seems unlikely as they aren't really any holds just interesting places.

    On the other hand they could be a settling horde with AL like the chaos waste a safe place to retreat to, as I can think of a reason the Asari wouldn't live in the ruins of others while growing the forest in the area back up.
    Team Wood Elves

    boyfights loves wood elves.

    "Heaven forbid that under the Vail of military training we should subject our young men to the lust of our general" - Hanno to the Carthaginian senate on the future of Hannibal.

    "Guard mode is back in Warhammer :)" - Darren_CA

    "It's amazing how many mistakes your enemy will make in haste after seeing that he's outgunned" -The Organ King
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