Is this cheesy ? Empire mobility build

Loubido

Currently running a very mobile Empire build against VC, Orks and Chaos that works 90% of the time providing my micro is good. No one seems to think Wolf Riders/ Warhounds are worth their salt and I'm taking full advantage.

- vs VC: Franz on Pegasus, 2 Empire Captain on Pegasus, 1 Light Wizard on Pegasus, 2 DGK w/ Halberd, 3 Pistoliers, 2 Outriders w/ Grenade Launchers, 1 Outrider w/ Rifles ( Vet 3)

- vs Orks: General on Griffon, Light Wizard on Pegasus, 4 Empire Knights, 3 Outriders w/ Grenade Launchers, 2 Outriders w/ Rifles, Steam Tank

- vs Chaos ( here I feel really bad, Chaos is already an under powered faction) General on Griffon, Light Wizard on Pegasus, 2 DGK w/ Halberd, 4 Outriders w/ Rifles, 2 Outriders w/ Grenade Launchers, Steam Tank

Would these picks be considered cheese ? Most of my opponents understandably quit within 6-7 mins once their Lord and Cavalry are dead...

salsicha

I would only say it's cheese if when you run out of ammo you still refuse to fight and you just run around to force a draw.

Loubido

salsicha said:

I would only say it's cheese if when you run out of ammo you still refuse to fight and you just run around to force a draw.

I agree that this would be really bad form but generally by the time I run out of ammo the enemy is either routing, dead or close enough to death that a few charges from my remaining units will finish them :-D.

Letsaros

I don't think it's cheesy. I think the only thing it can do vs high ladder players that play VC and Orcs against it is get a draw while kiting around. There's not enough hitting power to kill a VC deathstar especially if the characters are on foot.

If you land your characters to attack them you will be swarmed and die even if you use net of amintok.

That being said, i like the idea but i don't think it's viable at higher ranks. Especially with so many spirit leech targets (even after the 'nerf') and fate of bjuna that can do wonders vs DGK and your light cavalry.

I won't mention how bretonnia and dwarfs (yes dwarfs :P) can kill this list because i read your post as 'hi guys i play this list only vs VC, O&G and Chaos' and i think that is your intention

Riggsen#6588

Not cheesey at all.

Vs VC: as previous poster said you won't have enough anmo to take down deathstar. Will do well vs regular VC builds.

Vs Greens: I mostly play greenskins and Empire is one of the easiest factions for me to beat. Top greenskin players will usually vs Empire bring boar boy big'uns (there go your knights), shaman to fend off your light wizard / snipe tank, and foot missiles to counter your skirmish cav. I'd have no problems beating your build.

Vs Chaos: yes you'll slaughter them, but Chaos kinda blows :-)

salsicha

Not necessarily, a few warhounds and chaos knights would smash all your outriders, and Kholek takes like two seconds to smash a tank. Chaos has the steepest learning curve, so you probably beat lots of people that were still learning, but there are lots of ways for chaos to beat that build.

Also, that build is basically the same as lots of Britonnia builds, which I've beaten with chaos, in fact the worst result I've had (recently) was a tie because the other player ran until the clock ran out.

salsicha

@Ato CA

An Outrider that shoots bullets has 20 ammo, and an Outrider that shoots GRENADES also has 20 ammo. I'm pretty sure grenades weigh more than bullets.

Kurtalicious

It's an easy win even with bad micro skills. Zero to no counter play unless you specifically build to counter it and if you do then you have a crappy build that can't handle a real army. There is absolutely no interaction with it. Just get kited and die.

I played against one of these builds in a tournament.

After all the rage from players being beaten by it and word of the build spreading amongst the players like wildfire. One of the players in the tournament built just to beat it. He brought something like 6 would riders and 6 orc boy big un's. An Orc Warboss on a boar and an Orc Shaman on a boar and a few sets of infantry.

I even play tested it for myself afterwards.

You can't expect either build in quick battles.

FeelsBadMan on both sides of the battle.

It's totally cheesy.

RenegadeKnight

It's beatable by any of the factions you've listed, but it can be cheesy as it has an advantage to an unprepared player. It's pretty much one of those your screwed if you didn't bring the right build.

salsicha

Maybe it's just me, but I really like Trolls (armored) against Empire because they do so well against Greatswords. They are also completely invulnerable to grenades, what little damage they take is immediately regenerated. They are also really fast so they can probably screen the Outriders pretty well. That and Demigryphs die pretty fast to Fireball. In my opinion, a typical counter Empire (Chaos) army would do just fine.

For Greenskins, wouldn't Fate of Bjuna and Doom Divers take out the Outriders? That sounds like a fairly typical Orc army. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't play Greenskins often.

Riggsen#6588

FoB will take a good chunk out of outriders (or any cav unit), not as much as it used to but still decent.

I always bring 2 orc archer units and 2 skirmish cav. The latter beat the empire equivalents for cost, and foot missiles will wreck them. With those 4 units and a DD I can hold off up to 6 outriders, which cost a whole lot more.

A balanced greenskin build has no problem if both players are equally skilled. Problem is a lot of people playing greenskins neglect missile troops, that's not a balanced army and this build will beat it for sure.

Rakdos

@salsicha
"Not necessarily, a few warhounds and chaos knights would smash all your outriders, and Kholek "
What you think about (Griffon, Light Wizard on Pegasus, 2 DGK w/ Halberd, 4 Outriders w/ Rifles). Probably you already guess what purpose for that group of units.

Loubido

Stevenseagul said:

I don't think it's cheesy. I think the only thing it can do vs high ladder players that play VC and Orcs against it is get a draw while kiting around. There's not enough hitting power to kill a VC deathstar especially if the characters are on foot.

If you land your characters to attack them you will be swarmed and die even if you use net of amintok.

That being said, i like the idea but i don't think it's viable at higher ranks. Especially with so many spirit leech targets (even after the 'nerf') and fate of bjuna that can do wonders vs DGK and your light cavalry.

I won't mention how bretonnia and dwarfs (yes dwarfs :P) can kill this list because i read your post as 'hi guys i play this list only vs VC, O&G and Chaos' and i think that is your intention

Correct ! I would never play this build against Empire, Bretonnia or Dwarves because they will consistently bring enough ranged to give me a bad time.

Riggsen said:

Not cheesey at all.

Vs VC: as previous poster said you won't have enough anmo to take down deathstar. Will do well vs regular VC builds.

Vs Greens: I mostly play greenskins and Empire is one of the easiest factions for me to beat. Top greenskin players will usually vs Empire bring boar boy big'uns (there go your knights), shaman to fend off your light wizard / snipe tank, and foot missiles to counter your skirmish cav. I'd have no problems beating your build.

Vs VC Deathstar: I haven't actually faced one of them yet with this build, you might well be right, the damage output might not be enough to beat the regen.

Vs Greenskins: Your average Greenskin player will bring 3-5 Boarboyz and 0-2 Wolfriders. The cavalry is inevitably going to have to leave the effective support range of the infantry to try and catch your Outriders. I usually put a Net of Amontok down on them once they are isolated enough, turn around with my ranged cav and focus them, then I charge one unit of empire knights in to pin them, sacrificing the knights but dealing huge damage to one of the main threats.

There is obviously a targeting priority order when playing this build vs Greenskins: 1. Azhag on Skullmuncha ( Shem's Burning Gaze + Captain on Griffon can deal with this, Net if he tries to run). 2. Cavalry ( including Lords and Heros on Boars/Wolves). 3. Missiles. 4.Artillery. 5. Giants or Aracknaroks ( Target with Steam Tank from start of battle). 6. Lords or Hero's on foot. 7. Infantry.

Thanks for all the responses guys, I see this build wasn't as obscure as I once thought.

Loubido

salsicha said:

Maybe it's just me, but I really like Trolls (armored) against Empire because they do so well against Greatswords. They are also completely invulnerable to grenades, what little damage they take is immediately regenerated. They are also really fast so they can probably screen the Outriders pretty well. That and Demigryphs die pretty fast to Fireball. In my opinion, a typical counter Empire (Chaos) army would do just fine.

For Greenskins, wouldn't Fate of Bjuna and Doom Divers take out the Outriders? That sounds like a fairly typical Orc army. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't play Greenskins often.

As you can see their are no Greatswords so that pick is a bad one against this build, the armoured trolls will rout/die like pigs in a slaughter when they get shot by the Outriders with Rifles and it's easy to mop up the rest with DGK w/ Halberds. At the end of the day with any of these 3 races, you need your lords, heroes, monsters and cavalry to be supported to avoid them getting picked off ( which this build is good at, mobility ==> easy to concentrate fire) they can only go so fast and far depending on your infantry, which this build easily kites.

Yes Fate of Bjuna will wreck the Outriders but good luck getting more than two off before your shaman on a wolf/boar dies. Also the doom divers would be a good counter if the cavalry stays in range which as the Empire player you shouldn't let happen. Against the Steam Tank however they won't do so well. The Doom divers don't have AP missiles and the Steam Tank has wayyy too much armour to seriously hurt it with a hit, that is when you hit, because the Steam Tank is one target vs the 3 + crew of the doomdivers.

salsicha

Do this:
Corner camp and put your Trolls in front. If the Demigryphs get close, Fireball them and they will run away or die. If any of the Trolls go down to half health, pull it back to regenerate and put a Chaos Warrior in its place. If you brought a Death wizard then Fate of Bjuna the Grenadiers. ONE Bjuna and the whole Grenadiers unit goes by by. Then the Outriders will waste all their ammo on regenerating Trolls. If you don't have Trolls, one Outrider only has enough ammo to kill one Chaos Warrior unit. So worst case you lose four Chaos Warriors (3200). When the shooting stops the Empire player will just have a bunch of worthless horsemen. He can still run away and force a draw, but that would be cheese. His light mage can cast SBG, but you can hide behind the Trolls and cast Spirit Leech back.

Oh, and when his heroes land for melee, position your units so they don't have a runway for taking off. Put Trolls next to your wizards, they do massive AP damage. If your wizards are on horseback they can just run around in circles while the Trolls stomp on his heroes. The best time to Fireball a flying hero is when he is taking off.

The heroes and Trolls can catch and kill the Tank, but chasing it would mean not corner camping. You could still do all the same stuff, it would just be more difficult. I guess what you do depends on the map/terrain. Forsaken would definitely be better than Chaos Warriors for a running battle. You might also want to let the Tank shoot you for a while so you could Bjuna all the Outriders.

So a good army would be something like:
Archaon
Death wiz
4 X Armored Trolls
4 X Chaos Warriors (Forsaken?)
4 X Marauder (GW)

In a typical battle the same army would also work. CW kills spearman, Trolls kill Greatswords, Marauders kill Demigryphs. You just have to do the work of maneuvering.

Rakdos

"In a typical battle the same army would also work"
Не смеши мои носки.

Loubido

salsicha said:

Do this:
Corner camp and put your Trolls in front. If the Demigryphs get close, Fireball them and they will run away. If any of the Trolls go down to half health, pull it back to regenerate and put a Chaos Warrior in its place. If you brought a Death wizard then Fate of Bjuna the Grenadiers. ONE Bjuna and the whole Grenadiers unit goes by by. Then the Outriders will waste all their ammo on regenerating Trolls. If you don't have Trolls, one Outrider only has enough ammo to kill one Chaos Warrior unit. So worst case you lose four Chaos Warriors (3200). When the shooting stops the Empire player will just have a bunch of worthless horsemen. He can still run away and force a draw, but that would be cheese. His light mage can cast SBG, but you can hide behind the Trolls and cast Spirit Leech and Fireball back. Only cast Fireball when he is targeting so he can't dodge.

Oh, and when his heroes land for melee, position your units so they don't have a runway for taking off. Put Trolls next to your wizards, they do massive AP damage. If your wizards are on horseback they can just run around in circles while the Trolls stomp on his heroes.

So a good army would be something like:
Archaon
Death wiz
4 X Armored Trolls
4 X Chaos Warriors (Forsaken?)
4 X Marauder (GW)

In a typical battle the same army would also work. CW kills spearman, Trolls kill Greatswords, Marauders kill Demigryphs. You just have to do the work of maneuvering.

Ah... Corner camping... Please refer to this post for what I and many others think about that..

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/180300/im-a-dwarf-so-you-have-to-attack-me-map-borders-and-their-limitations#latest

salsicha

Are you kidding? The OP is asking if his build is cheesy and you are criticing corner camping.

Seriously, Loubido, you didn't even read the whole thread.

THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE BUILD IS THAT YOU CANT CATCH IT. CHASING IT IS COMPLETELY POINTLESS. THE ARMY IS DESIGNED TO JUST RUN AWAY.

LOUBIDO, IF YOU ARENT GOING TO BOTHER READING A THREAD THEN DO NOT POST IN IT.

Rakdos

@salsicha
"Corner camp and put your Trolls in front"
Tank fireing all that times?!?! Trolls not resurect models due to regeneration.

"ONE Bjuna and the whole Grenadiers unit goes by by"
One bjuna not reduce numbers of grenadiers, may be few models(3-5) fall.

"His light mage can cast SBG, .........Fireball back. Only cast Fireball when he is targeting so he can't dodge."
SbG and fireball have 1 sec castime!!! And dodge fireball very easy.

"In a typical battle the same army would also work"
Не смеши мои носки.<- I type Russian idioma, because not want describe how sh.ty this roster against competetive empire player.

salsicha

Why is it sh.ty?

I can tell by your response that you haven't tried it so I'm not sure why you don't think it can work.

Rakdos

I do not see any solid reason to stop rear cycle charging with empire cav. One death sorc mean you only able cast one bjuna on one unit of reiksguard/DGK, waiting for the end of spell effects then waiting for spell cd. It's a huge period of time. And bjuna like Ii say not reduce numbers signifinatly from fully health unit, so here you nieed somthing that able to apply portion of damage, for example marauder horsmen(axes) or/and simply cover flanks of your power fist(trolls, forsaken) from rear charging by CW(halbers). And if I was empire player i actually bring some cheap emperial knights and make frontal charge onto chaos fist than include infantry to fight. I recognize how strong that chaos mix of any inafntry/ monstous infantry units. Archaon is a waste of funds. If both army trading with each other somehow defualt empire lord on griff the most powerfull threat to you, Archaon on drogar not a threat to him. There I prefer to economy funds and not spend much on Llors/heroes (only two sorc), but make more massive army.

Loubido

salsicha said:

Are you kidding? The OP is asking if his build is cheesy and you are criticing corner camping.

Seriously, Loubido, you didn't even read the whole thread.

THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE BUILD IS THAT YOU CANT CATCH IT. CHASING IT IS COMPLETELY POINTLESS. THE ARMY IS DESIGNED TO JUST RUN AWAY.

LOUBIDO, IF YOU ARENT GOING TO BOTHER READING A THREAD THEN DO NOT POST IN IT.

I am the OP so yea...

salsicha

So your opinion is your army would run away if the other army charges? But then whine about corner camping if they stop chasing and stand at the edge of the map?

Standing still is cheese, but running away isn't?

Yes, I forgot you started the thread, but you still completely ignored everything I said.

Galvanized Iron

salsicha said:

Do this:
Corner camp and put your Trolls in front. If the Demigryphs get close, Fireball them and they will run away or die. If any of the Trolls go down to half health, pull it back to regenerate and put a Chaos Warrior in its place. If you brought a Death wizard then Fate of Bjuna the Grenadiers. ONE Bjuna and the whole Grenadiers unit goes by by. Then the Outriders will waste all their ammo on regenerating Trolls. If you don't have Trolls, one Outrider only has enough ammo to kill one Chaos Warrior unit. So worst case you lose four Chaos Warriors (3200). When the shooting stops the Empire player will just have a bunch of worthless horsemen. He can still run away and force a draw, but that would be cheese. His light mage can cast SBG, but you can hide behind the Trolls and cast Spirit Leech back.

Oh, and when his heroes land for melee, position your units so they don't have a runway for taking off. Put Trolls next to your wizards, they do massive AP damage. If your wizards are on horseback they can just run around in circles while the Trolls stomp on his heroes. The best time to Fireball a flying hero is when he is taking off.

The heroes and Trolls can catch and kill the Tank, but chasing it would mean not corner camping. You could still do all the same stuff, it would just be more difficult. I guess what you do depends on the map/terrain. Forsaken would definitely be better than Chaos Warriors for a running battle. You might also want to let the Tank shoot you for a while so you could Bjuna all the Outriders.

So a good army would be something like:
Archaon
Death wiz
4 X Armored Trolls
4 X Chaos Warriors (Forsaken?)
4 X Marauder (GW)

In a typical battle the same army would also work. CW kills spearman, Trolls kill Greatswords, Marauders kill Demigryphs. You just have to do the work of maneuvering.

Loubido said:

salsicha said:

Are you kidding? The OP is asking if his build is cheesy and you are criticing corner camping.

Seriously, Loubido, you didn't even read the whole thread.

THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE BUILD IS THAT YOU CANT CATCH IT. CHASING IT IS COMPLETELY POINTLESS. THE ARMY IS DESIGNED TO JUST RUN AWAY.

LOUBIDO, IF YOU ARENT GOING TO BOTHER READING A THREAD THEN DO NOT POST IN IT.

I am the OP so yea...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Criticizing kiting and then propose corner camping, the audacity! Anyway his Chaos build is toast against a typical spears and gunners build with a light wizard for netting.

As for the build of the topic. It isn't exactly cheese in itself, but making a build based in the assumption that the enemy will not bring counter units is a bit cheesy.

I would also add that a whole swarm of bats would give the outsiders some problems. You could net them, but kinda feels bad to net bats. The heroes will have some issues chasing them down.

salsicha

I didn't criticize it. I said it wasn't cheese. You didn't read what I wrote either.

The whole point of the army is to run away. So my proposal was to just stand still.

Excuse me for using the phrase "corner camping." I apologize.

Loubido

salsicha said:

So your opinion is your army would run away if the other army charges? But then whine about corner camping if they stop chasing and stand at the edge of the map?

Standing still is cheese, but running away isn't?

Yes, I forgot you started the thread, but you still completely ignored everything I said.

I have absolutely not ignored what you've said ( I replied to all of your relevant posts) but after your performance on this thread I'm well within my rights to hold the value of your opinion as questionable.

If you'd taken the time to properly read this thread and the one I referred you to then you'd know what my opinion is.

I was wondering if my build ,which at this time represents a hard counter to the meta, would be considered acceptable and not cheap in the eyes of other players and I have concluded, thanks to other people's opinions, that it is not.

I also stated in response to your comment that a strategy involving corner camping is almost certainly cheap and cheesy. Once again you can find out why this is by following the link I replied to you with.

Galvanized Iron

salsicha said:

I didn't criticize it. I said it wasn't cheese. You didn't read what I wrote either.

The whole point of the army is to run away. So my proposal was to just stand still.

Excuse me for using the phrase "corner camping." I apologize.

Sorry if I misunderstood you then.

Loubido

salsicha said:

I apologize.

Thank you, no harm done.

Rakdos

Oh, even [WOLF]Diplomatt create thread about Steam tank

Loubido

Rakdos said:

Oh, even [WOLF]Diplomatt create thread about Steam tank

I'd be interested to read that. Any chance you could provide a link ?

Rakdos

https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/180524/steam-tank-needs-a-proper-nerf#latest