Chaos warriors: What's the point anymore?

Malessar

Beastmen do absolutely everything better. They raze everything, they can cooperate without attrition and they can make waaghs. Plus they can put 100 corruption with a single button after razing. CHAOS CANNOT PUT AS MUCH CHAOS CORRUPTION AS BEASTMEN.
What gives? How does this make sense?

Einarial

Possibly some mechanics could be added to Chaos too?

[Deleted User]

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Malessar

Make chaos build monuments too, they're more disciplined than beastmen, and beastmen build but chaos warriors don't?
Also, beastmen build siege towers - wut? xd

Avadon

AbbadontheDespoiler said:

Make chaos build monuments too, they're more disciplined than beastmen, and beastmen build but chaos warriors don't?
Also, beastmen build siege towers - wut? xd

And rams....you would think it would be a simple large tree trunk or something but no it's an actual ram.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

If it makes you feel better the Chaos Warriors have three LL's, and a roster with far more units than the BM have.

Combat_Wombat

Chaos: infighting

Beastmen: no infighting

Time to throw WoC into the trash bin.

Avadon

Combat_Wombat said:

Chaos: infighting

Beastmen: no infighting

Time to throw WoC into the trash bin.

This is directed at WoC:


The Dark Gods: you....have....failed.....

Mooncake

I prefer the WoC aesthetic and unit roster by quite a bit, so there is that. Also no matter how you look at it, WoC are the big bad and Beastmen are sort of like the slimes you fight at the beginning of Dragon Quest games.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

Mooncake said:

I prefer the WoC aesthetic and unit roster by quite a bit, so there is that. Also no matter how you look at it, WoC are the big bad and Beastmen are sort of like the slimes you fight at the beginning of Dragon Quest games.

That analogy is right if the Slimes are objectively more powerful than the big bad.

I mean roster wise Chaos wins, but campaign map wise the BM put a real big hurting on Chaos.

Mooncake

Sassy_Sasquatchius said:

Mooncake said:

I prefer the WoC aesthetic and unit roster by quite a bit, so there is that. Also no matter how you look at it, WoC are the big bad and Beastmen are sort of like the slimes you fight at the beginning of Dragon Quest games.

That analogy is right if the Slimes are objectively more powerful than the big bad.

I mean roster wise Chaos wins, but campaign map wise the BM put a real big hurting on Chaos.

I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about the total war game balance there. Are you being obtuse or do you just not understand what I mean?

Canuovea#6291

Chaos also has their own personal farmland up North, filled with people they can vassalize. They've got a home where they are basically safe. Beastmen... less so.

Valeli#5924

Combat_Wombat said:

Chaos: infighting

Beastmen: no infighting

Time to throw WoC into the trash bin.

Well you obviously took his argument seriously, and didn't just simplify it to a single complaint and conclusion. Good for you.

As for the OP... Chaos plays substantially differently still. The problem I think is with (either) unit stats or pricing, both of which could get addressed by and by. They're clearly a much more elite and armored army (in theory). Not to mention disciplined. The game doesn't entirely convey it as such though.

While waiting on patching, I think there are various mods that could help out though. I'm pretty sure their's a toggle mod for the attrition they take when next to each other. Many other mods also fiddle with the stats (although some of those are hidden in larger mods, like "Make units play more like they did on the table top," etc).

I know modding's not an ideal fix, but it can probably help you with your main complaints while we wait.

#890336

I stated this in an earlier thread, but I believe that the current state of the Warriors of Chaos is just a placeholder, and once the second expansion comes out featuring the Chaos Gods, the WoC will have their mechanics changed. I certainly hope so, because now they pretty much suck.

Avadon

HarryB922 said:

I stated this in an earlier thread, but I believe that the current state of the Warriors of Chaos is just a placeholder, and once the second expansion comes out featuring the Chaos Gods, the WoC will have their mechanics changed. I certainly hope so, because now they pretty much suck.

Wonder if "The Prime Chaos" will rise again....

Valeli#5924

Oh, Oh.

Watching Kholek smash units is, for me, one of the most pleasurable experiences in the game. I don't really like the faction, and I hate their horde campaign map mechanics, but watching him inevitably puts a smile on my face.

Jaigen

AbbadontheDespoiler said:

Beastmen do absolutely everything better. They raze everything, they can cooperate without attrition and they can make waaghs. Plus they can put 100 corruption with a single button after razing. CHAOS CANNOT PUT AS MUCH CHAOS CORRUPTION AS BEASTMEN.
What gives? How does this make sense?

100 corruption for 1 turn . and looking at the stats it seems the whole faction plays differently with the beastmen having virtually no staying power compared to the chaos warriors.

KGpoopy

I think the next titles and Unit packs will make them much more intimidating. You know it's coming.

Commissar_G#7535

Einarial said:

Possibly some mechanics could be added to Chaos too?

I expect this as well when the beastmen patch drops that WoC get tweaks.

thesniperdevil

1. There is a great mod that makes Chaos rifts spread chaos corruption. I recommend it.
2. Sometimes sacking somewhere for cash but leaving it in enemy hands is great, farm them for cash as they start to get strong again.
3. Chaos of the norscans as vassals
4. Different playstyle- chaos units are quite proficient at grinding it out.
5. Three legenday lords
6. Different magic users.
7. Different starting location.
8. Lack of flightiness meter means you have less pressure to always be fighting.

They are very similar, but there are still enough differences.

Gaussia

They probably took inspiration from people playing WoC, figured out what worked and what didn't and took that into account with the BoC design.

Deathofjams

I think Chaos still have a few advantages:

- Chaos are much better in a stand-up fight. Their units are too expensive in multiplayer, but in campaign this matters a lot less (especially with the big upkeep reduction from various buildings. Most Chaos troops beat (or, at least, should beat) their equivalents in a one-on-one fight.

- Beastmen get a bestial rage penalty from engaging in *any* positive diplomacy, even with Chaos Warriors, while Chaos can have Norscan allies and vassals to help them out.

- Chaos can choose to sack and not raze a settlement, which means they can "farm" the same settlements for a while and aren't compelled to be on the move quite as much as Beastmen.

- Chaos have a relative safe zone in the North, while Beastmen don't (though Beastmen can at least hide in swamps and stealth as compensation)

But I think your general point is right: Beastmen clearly represent an attempt to deal with some of the irritations of the Chaos campaign, which in a lot of ways ends up making them just better. Hopefully Chaos will see some buffs to compensate.

theassassinsasyshi

AbbadontheDespoiler said:

Beastmen do absolutely everything better. They raze everything, they can cooperate without attrition and they can make waaghs. Plus they can put 100 corruption with a single button after razing. CHAOS CANNOT PUT AS MUCH CHAOS CORRUPTION AS BEASTMEN.
What gives? How does this make sense?

You seem to think that Beastmen are not a Chaos faction by your sentence with all caps. You obviously don't know about the way beastmen defile things.

Combat_Wombat

Its starting to feel more and more like CA listened to the suggestions for making WoC a better faction to play as but then decided to incorporate those ideas into Beastmen instead of WoC even though we wanted those changes for them in the first place.

TheShiroOfDalton

Combat_Wombat said:

Its starting to feel more and more like CA listened to the suggestions for making WoC a better faction to play as but then decided to incorporate those ideas into Beastmen instead of WoC even though we wanted those changes for them in the first place.

Ah, the royal "we" strikes again.

Sorry, who's "we"? The people on this forum who said so? How numerous are they?

pauli77

The game will be patched as well so there may be some minor changes to Chaos.

Their armies are quite different and in a stand up fight you'd be far better with Chaos warriors than the cloven hooved ones.

Snotface#2790

Ephraim_Dalton said:

Combat_Wombat said:

Its starting to feel more and more like CA listened to the suggestions for making WoC a better faction to play as but then decided to incorporate those ideas into Beastmen instead of WoC even though we wanted those changes for them in the first place.

Ah, the royal "we" strikes again.

Sorry, who's "we"? The people on this forum who said so? How numerous are they?

Count me in, and last time i checked, two is enough to correctly use the word "we".



Hopefully Warriors of Chaos will get tweaked at somepoint.

GRAY_HAT

The one thing WoC have over beastmen is awakening I think CA are going to have to tweak this so that a good chaos player can sit in the north for 70-100 turns then swarm with all the Cassels down upon the lands of man.

Auto vasselisation would be a good start and a general reduction in low level unit cost wouldmake it clearer how to build up forces

Petromir

Combat_Wombat said:

Its starting to feel more and more like CA listened to the suggestions for making WoC a better faction to play as but then decided to incorporate those ideas into Beastmen instead of WoC even though we wanted those changes for them in the first place.

Unlikely i, given that most of this was probably decided before the main game launched.

Jlabelle04

There are several reasons I'm assuming CA changed things:
1) diversity of campaign - kudos to them
2) Chaos has an incredibly beefy campaign roster that can go 2v1 and sometimes more in VH or Legendary
3) Chaos generally allies with Norsca factions making them even stronger

It seems CA is trying to differentiate the 2 by making Chaos the slow, steady, hard as nails army compared to Beastmen.

ChronusUndivided

Chaos without Deamons is like a cocktail without the booze...

The beastmen are the vanguard of chaos... The WoC are the rank and file... But without the Deamons this little axis of evil is missing it's heart...

And I can't help but feel underwhelmed by chaos without the spirits

One can only hope they will appear in time... Though it sure seems like WoC have no problems razing most of the map on their own, so hopefully we get some more civilization here in between...