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Warriors of Chaos have far more elite units. Their hordes in campaign are much better.
Not all of the Warriors of Chaos units are elite, at the very least Chaos Marauders should have 'Resilience', the trait that would allow them to avoid Infighting, and then the Chaos player would have the choice of going with one elite stack, or several low tier stacks, also the Chaos AI is not having Infighting for all it's units from day one, so it's would be only fair to give at least to some of Chaos player units this ability.
No, but the WoC doesnt spawn with marauders, only the Norsca factions does, and they arent playable anyway. It would be a great deal harder to play any faction if the Norscans were immune too. especially once Beastmen are involved.
Norsca units are having Infighting? I didn't see that happening, in fact they like to gang up with Multiply Stacks on a single Lord and his Army, they can take Attrition in a lands with Vampire Corruption, but this attrition is from the Vampire Corruption and not from the Infighting.
No AI has infighting. Only the Player as Chaos suffers from it. Any confusion is probably coming from vampiric corruption. That stuff is why VC always takes over the entire middle of the map.
Chaos Warriors seem to get WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY more favor out of sacking settlements than Beastmen do.
Favor was really not a factor in the Chaos Campaign I was doing as the minimum I was seeing for sacking a cow town was 12K or so, while large settlements around turn 100 could give out 50K+.
With Beastmen I've been rather paranoid about low favor and am constantly looking at revenue despite having mostly weak troops.
You also can't compare the economic min-maxing of upkeep reduction that sees standard Chaos Warriors with an upkeep of 80-ish favor a turn with anything on the Beastman roster from what I've seen so far. And that's not even getting into the raw power of a lot of the Chaos units, which again, you can actually afford to field.
OTOH, the amount of devastation I've inflicted as Beastmen has been much more severe and much more rapid as there is no sacking (a decent number of the razed regions behind me have high Chaos Corruption as well, which continues to go up even though I've long since left; so, it's really inhospitable back there).
While the mechanics look different, they aren't clearly better.
I've only played 60 or so turns of an Eye for an Eye.
Also I haven't checked chaos since the patch to see if chaos is any different.
But comparing pre-patch chaos to post-patch beastmen, some observations: I made more gold sacking, winning battles, captives, etc. from warriors of chaos than I do with beastmen. (and I have all the beastmen gold tech upgrades).
Beastmen are better at replenishment and better at population growth.
As warriors of chaos, key limiting resource was population. As beastmen, key limiting resource is gold.
Beastmen hordes can't force march ... if you need to avoid battle, hidden encampment is your only choice (and you can still be spotted, similar to ambush stance I think).
Attacking with an ambush battle is really cool, but you can't use that when attacking settlements.
Warriors of Chaos have far more elite units. Their hordes in campaign are much better.
Not all of the Warriors of Chaos units are elite, at the very least Chaos Marauders should have 'Resilience', the trait that would allow them to avoid Infighting, and then the Chaos player would have the choice of going with one elite stack, or several low tier stacks, also the Chaos AI is not having Infighting for all it's units from day one, so it's would be only fair to give at least to some of Chaos player units this ability.
The problem is Chaos armies are stronger than beastmen armies thats why they have their respective weaknesses and bonuses etc.
@Patrikseve what part of Not All of the Warriors of Chaos Units are Elite you do not understand, you telling me that Chaos Marauders are stronger then Bestigors and Minotaurs?
The +100 Chaos corruption does not = 100 corruption in the province, in the same way that having 5 chaos lords with +20 corruption doesn't = 100 corruption rating in a province in one turn. It's a hit, for sure. But even if you are rampantly sacking the game with chaos going from town to town, the province will still have 40ish corruption rating when you leave. And that's with only one horde and no siege time.
Chaos has probably the easiest campaign in the game, Kholek + Death Sorcerer + 18 Shoggoths is impossible for the AI to defeat. You can literally beat them 3 stacks to one with no losses. The easiest part is that the stack has virtually no maintenance and needs only the main horde building, the dragon chain and the upkeep-reduction chain to build. And the upkeep building is really only for quality of life. It's even easier now that Shoggoths and Kholek have the siege trait, so no having to throw in a hellcannon to save turns building siege weaponry you never needed even pre-patch.
If you are talking multiplayer, Chaos still needs point cost reductions. I haven't played Beastmen on multi-yet (just finished their mini-campaign and a grand campaign with them), so I can't comment on that comparison.
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
Too bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
Too bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
There have been 5 everchosen, and they have all been massive failures. Even Archaon failed in the "original" version of it. Its just when GW realized the chaos fanboys werent pleased they retconned it and created the current endtimes crap that lead to AoS.
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
Too bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
There have been 5 everchosen, and they have all been massive failures. Even Archaon failed in the "original" version of it. Its just when GW realized the chaos fanboys werent pleased they retconned it and created the current endtimes crap that lead to AoS.
There were actually five everchosen? So Chaos are actually even bigger chumps than I thougt.
There's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
Problem is none of them wanted to burn the world and destroy the chaos gods. Which is why Archaon did it when all others died. The others were slaves to the gods, Archaon made the chaos gods come to him because he pretty much destroyed everyone else.
At first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
There were actually five everchosen? So Chaos are actually even bigger chumps than I thougt.
There's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
Problem is none of them wanted to burn the world and destroy the chaos gods. Which is why Archaon did it when all others died. The others were slaves to the gods, Archaon made the chaos gods come to him because he pretty much destroyed everyone else.
At first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
He's still their pet-mortal in AoS and they even bestowed special gifts upon him.
I think that whole "I hate the Gods and destroy the world to spite them"-thing was just Archaon being pretentious and emo.
There were actually five everchosen? So Chaos are actually even bigger chumps than I thougt.
There's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
Problem is none of them wanted to burn the world and destroy the chaos gods. Which is why Archaon did it when all others died. The others were slaves to the gods, Archaon made the chaos gods come to him because he pretty much destroyed everyone else.
At first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
He's still their pet-mortal in AoS and they even bestowed special gifts upon him.
I think that whole "I hate the Gods and destroy the world to spite them"-thing was just Archaon being pretentious and emo.
No, he is not their pet it's more of he is the only guy who can unite their followers and get the job done they would rather pick someone else but there is no one. They wanted him to bow to one of them he refused. They then tried to even assassinate him because he was becoming too powerful it's getting to the point where some chaos followers worship at his feet instead of them.
His personal honor guard is pretty much free from the machinations of chaos yes their patrons will no longer turn them into a daemon prince but they will never suffer spawndom under Archaon.
As Archaon said in the old world "I will not be their slave or their servant I will show them what I can do with my deeds and they will come to me." Which they did, he is backing up his words with action.
Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
There were actually five everchosen? So Chaos are actually even bigger chumps than I thougt.
There's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
Problem is none of them wanted to burn the world and destroy the chaos gods. Which is why Archaon did it when all others died. The others were slaves to the gods, Archaon made the chaos gods come to him because he pretty much destroyed everyone else.
At first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
He's still their pet-mortal in AoS and they even bestowed special gifts upon him.
I think that whole "I hate the Gods and destroy the world to spite them"-thing was just Archaon being pretentious and emo.
No, he is not their pet it's more of he is the only guy who can unite their followers. They wanted him to bow to one of them he refused. They then tried to even assassinate him because he was becoming too powerful it's getting to the point where some chaos followers worship at his feet instead of them.
The one he refused to bow to was the newcomer, the Horned Rat, the other gods hate that guy too, so he wasn't being rebellious.
Tzeentch even allowed him to get away with sacrificing Kairos to summon a Bloodthirster, so, yeah P-E-T!
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
Too bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
There have been 5 everchosen, and they have all been massive failures. Even Archaon failed in the "original" version of it. Its just when GW realized the chaos fanboys werent pleased they retconned it and created the current endtimes crap that lead to AoS.
There is a reason some or many choose not to speak of "Morkar, the Uniter" or "Kharduun, the Gloried".....though....I was being generous with "Asavar Kul, the Anointed".
There were actually five everchosen? So Chaos are actually even bigger chumps than I thougt.
There's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
Problem is none of them wanted to burn the world and destroy the chaos gods. Which is why Archaon did it when all others died. The others were slaves to the gods, Archaon made the chaos gods come to him because he pretty much destroyed everyone else.
At first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
He's still their pet-mortal in AoS and they even bestowed special gifts upon him.
I think that whole "I hate the Gods and destroy the world to spite them"-thing was just Archaon being pretentious and emo.
No, he is not their pet it's more of he is the only guy who can unite their followers. They wanted him to bow to one of them he refused. They then tried to even assassinate him because he was becoming too powerful it's getting to the point where some chaos followers worship at his feet instead of them.
The one he refused to bow to was the newcomer, the Horned Rat, the other gods hate that guy too, so he wasn't being rebellious.
Tzeentch even allowed him to get away with sacrificing Kairos to summon a Bloodthirster, so, yeah P-E-T!
He did not bow to them or anyone the whole point of his character is that he does not bow to gods. What happend he accepted their blessings after they tried to kill him because he knew and the chaos gods knew they could not get rid of him. The relationship between Archaon and the chaos gods is like a business relationship now.
They now move somewhat to his whims instead of theirs hence why some followers are trying to get out from under his thumb. Aka the gaunt summoners/tzeentch Arcanites. The chaos gods come to him for things not the other way round.
Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
@ShockMeSane nice tactic, but that leaves the question, what the point in Infighting for Chaos Marauders in this case, steamrolling is just what Chaos is doing in the lore as well.
Calling BS on that one. They only steamrolled when they got the Skaven to for once unite and ally with them, villain-suing every other obstacle out of the way (o yeah, and Mannfred backstabbing the one remaining obstacle that might have repelled them).
Otherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
Too bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
There have been 5 everchosen, and they have all been massive failures. Even Archaon failed in the "original" version of it. Its just when GW realized the chaos fanboys werent pleased they retconned it and created the current endtimes crap that lead to AoS.
Games Workshop didn't do it to please the chaos fanboys, they did it to start selling Sigmar Marines.
#Ressurection Chaos campaign is way less fun than the beastmen, with their random events and choices with the moon cycles. Why does the chosen of the Gods suffer infighting? There should be an in game mechanic that Archaon can research through technology that makes others see him as the Everchosen and stop the silly infighting. And something needs to be done to revamp the chaos campaign. It's dull and boring. Beastmen get all the funn.
But that's like YEARS from now! Why would anyone want to buy the DLC if it's got such a poor campaign and bad PR? CA must fix this. We all felt the WoC campaign was a grind, but we didn't know the horrors of it until we saw the Beastmen, the Wood elves. Compared to that, WoC is just... Basic.
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0 · Disagree AgreeFavor was really not a factor in the Chaos Campaign I was doing as the minimum I was seeing for sacking a cow town was 12K or so, while large settlements around turn 100 could give out 50K+.
With Beastmen I've been rather paranoid about low favor and am constantly looking at revenue despite having mostly weak troops.
You also can't compare the economic min-maxing of upkeep reduction that sees standard Chaos Warriors with an upkeep of 80-ish favor a turn with anything on the Beastman roster from what I've seen so far. And that's not even getting into the raw power of a lot of the Chaos units, which again, you can actually afford to field.
OTOH, the amount of devastation I've inflicted as Beastmen has been much more severe and much more rapid as there is no sacking (a decent number of the razed regions behind me have high Chaos Corruption as well, which continues to go up even though I've long since left; so, it's really inhospitable back there).
I would say they're both quite viable overall.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI've only played 60 or so turns of an Eye for an Eye.
Also I haven't checked chaos since the patch to see if chaos is any different.
But comparing pre-patch chaos to post-patch beastmen, some observations: I made more gold sacking, winning battles, captives, etc. from warriors of chaos than I do with beastmen. (and I have all the beastmen gold tech upgrades).
Beastmen are better at replenishment and better at population growth.
As warriors of chaos, key limiting resource was population. As beastmen, key limiting resource is gold.
Beastmen hordes can't force march ... if you need to avoid battle, hidden encampment is your only choice (and you can still be spotted, similar to ambush stance I think).
Attacking with an ambush battle is really cool, but you can't use that when attacking settlements.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeChaos has probably the easiest campaign in the game, Kholek + Death Sorcerer + 18 Shoggoths is impossible for the AI to defeat. You can literally beat them 3 stacks to one with no losses. The easiest part is that the stack has virtually no maintenance and needs only the main horde building, the dragon chain and the upkeep-reduction chain to build. And the upkeep building is really only for quality of life. It's even easier now that Shoggoths and Kholek have the siege trait, so no having to throw in a hellcannon to save turns building siege weaponry you never needed even pre-patch.
If you are talking multiplayer, Chaos still needs point cost reductions. I haven't played Beastmen on multi-yet (just finished their mini-campaign and a grand campaign with them), so I can't comment on that comparison.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree1. Beastmen Invisibility stance is way too op against AI.
2. No Doombull and Brassbull for Beastmen.
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0 · Disagree AgreeOh and they have a better roster :P
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree AgreeOtherwise they've been fruitlessly at it for thousands of years. Archaon is the third everchosen after all, his forebearers failed.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeToo bad tzeentch cursed and then made Be'Lakor into a mockery. He may have actually succeeded, where three everchosens failed.
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0 · Disagree AgreeIts just when GW realized the chaos fanboys werent pleased they retconned it and created the current endtimes crap that lead to AoS.
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0 · Disagree AgreeThere's something deeply ironic about someone being the second to fifth "ever"-chosen.
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0 · Disagree Agreeo,.,O
Bahahahahaha.....
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0 · Disagree AgreeAt first they found him amusing, now? Not so much.
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0 · Disagree AgreeI think that whole "I hate the Gods and destroy the world to spite them"-thing was just Archaon being pretentious and emo.
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1 · Disagree AgreeHis personal honor guard is pretty much free from the machinations of chaos yes their patrons will no longer turn them into a daemon prince but they will never suffer spawndom under Archaon.
As Archaon said in the old world "I will not be their slave or their servant I will show them what I can do with my deeds and they will come to me." Which they did, he is backing up his words with action.
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0 · Disagree AgreeTzeentch even allowed him to get away with sacrificing Kairos to summon a Bloodthirster, so, yeah P-E-T!
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0 · Disagree AgreeThere is a reason some or many choose not to speak of "Morkar, the Uniter" or "Kharduun, the Gloried".....though....I was being generous with "Asavar Kul, the Anointed".
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0 · Disagree AgreeThey now move somewhat to his whims instead of theirs hence why some followers are trying to get out from under his thumb. Aka the gaunt summoners/tzeentch Arcanites. The chaos gods come to him for things not the other way round.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeChaos campaign is way less fun than the beastmen, with their random events and choices with the moon cycles. Why does the chosen of the Gods suffer infighting? There should be an in game mechanic that Archaon can research through technology that makes others see him as the Everchosen and stop the silly infighting. And something needs to be done to revamp the chaos campaign. It's dull and boring. Beastmen get all the funn.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree