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Lore question: Why do you hate the Endtimes ?

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  • hippoblue64hippoblue64 Registered Users Posts: 21
    I don't mind AoS but I spend an inordinate amount of energy trying to forget everything to do with elves in the End Times.

    Basically whoever wrote that either hadn't read the previous lore or didn't care.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Registered Users Posts: 1,399

    I don't mind AoS but I spend an inordinate amount of energy trying to forget everything to do with elves in the End Times.

    Basically whoever wrote that either hadn't read the previous lore or didn't care.

    Knee before Malekith, treacherous weakling.
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • GunKingGunKing Registered Users Posts: 618
    I don't mind End Times that much, it has a lot of cool events. It is a bit of a shame that it led to the end of the Warhammer Fantasy IP, which I prefer the aesthetics and story of over the AoS, primarily because most of WHFB factions and setting have a real world inspiration, AoS is ultra high fantasy, which isn't my preference.

    Still Warhammer Fantasy isn't the only series that ended with the setting just kind of fading, same **** happens in LOTR when the Third Age comes to a close and mysticism starts to die out, or with Conan the Barbarian and the Hyperborean Age passing over.

    All that being said, it would have been really something if GW lived with their narrative choices made in End Times, with the crisis averted but most of the big changes intact i.e. a Warhammer world with a united Elven faction, Brets led by Gilles and the Empire led by Sigmar possessed Franz.
  • BargrimmBargrimm Registered Users Posts: 240
    edited April 2017

    I don't mind AoS but I spend an inordinate amount of energy trying to forget everything to do with elves in the End Times.

    Basically whoever wrote that either hadn't read the previous lore or didn't care.

    The guy who wrote the endtimes books about the elves is gav thorpe. The same guy who wrote the triology about malekith and several other warhammer books. He most certainly cared and he is one of the better authors who wrote warhammer fantasy novels and have a huge knowledge about the warhammer world.

    However the problem with his end times book as with every other from that shameful series is that is a commisioned work by games workshop. Made only for the goal to destroy the warhammer fantasy world to make room for age of nonsense.. i mean age of sigmar. The author had to write his story only for that purpose and thats why he had very limited options to write a great story. This is the main reasom why the end times is so bad because everything that build up the story of the warhammer fantasy world in countless novels over many years before had to be turned upside down and thrown out of the window just to make room for the endtimes.

    If Gamesworkshop had put all the energy that they put into the end times and age of sigmar warhammer fantasy it wouldnt be necessary destroy WH Fantasy. Instead they gone the very easy way of a wrecking ball and didnt care if they annoy their faithful fans and players. For me thats the reason that after over two decades beeing a warhammer fantasy fan and spend several thousand bucks on their products i never ever will buy a GW product again.

    TW Warhammer is the only execption and thats only because of nostalgia for wh fantasy.
  • FrancisFrancis Member Registered Users Posts: 502
    Gamgee said:

    Without Age of Sigmar no Kharadron Overlords. AoS is currently outselling 40k. The creativity and support being funnelled into it shows compared to the 346889 million space marine release. I'll take the end times and AoS which is going to make a kickass rts someday.

    Where are you guys getting your numbers? I haven't seen anything anywhere that is close to suggesting that AoS is outselling 40k. I haven't even seen any evidence that it is outselling fantasy if you look at the whole world and not just the home market in the UK.
  • GamgeeGamgee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,908
    edited April 2017

    Gamgee said:

    Without Age of Sigmar no Kharadron Overlords. AoS is currently outselling 40k. The creativity and support being funnelled into it shows compared to the 346889 million space marine release. I'll take the end times and AoS which is going to make a kickass rts someday.

    Unfortunately not everyone is blessed with sound judgement or good taste... What a sad predicament for the future, AoS... the fantasy version rip off of 40k, suits the way things are going in our society really, it's like the Mcdonalds of wargames quick pick up and play, not really quality, just consumption and over emphasised crap for overly enthusiastic, easily pleased, non-competitive losers to buy in to, the system we live in creates the environment for utter **** to flourish, just look at the music industry for evidence of that fact
    Kharadron Overlords are worth everything. The lore is more of... guideline anyways. YARRHAAARRR!

    AoS outselling 40k. https://creativetwilight.com/positive-age-of-sigmar/


  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    Gamgee said:

    Gamgee said:

    Without Age of Sigmar no Kharadron Overlords. AoS is currently outselling 40k. The creativity and support being funnelled into it shows compared to the 346889 million space marine release. I'll take the end times and AoS which is going to make a kickass rts someday.

    Unfortunately not everyone is blessed with sound judgement or good taste... What a sad predicament for the future, AoS... the fantasy version rip off of 40k, suits the way things are going in our society really, it's like the Mcdonalds of wargames quick pick up and play, not really quality, just consumption and over emphasised crap for overly enthusiastic, easily pleased, non-competitive losers to buy in to, the system we live in creates the environment for utter **** to flourish, just look at the music industry for evidence of that fact
    Kharadron Overlords are worth everything. The lore is more of... guideline anyways. YARRHAAARRR!

    AoS outselling 40k. https://creativetwilight.com/positive-age-of-sigmar/


    Okay I am convinced now that AoS is a silly game for 12 yrs olds
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,898
    That link goes to an article that talks about how the bloke started collecting with 6th edition. That's not a twelve year old kid.

    That video is silly though.
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  • FrancisFrancis Member Registered Users Posts: 502
    Gamgee said:
    Where does it say in that article that AoS is outselling 40K? It is just a random guy's opinion on the game. Here, have an actual ranking based on interviews and numbers https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36971/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2016.

    As you can see AoS is below X-Wing, 40K, and Warmachine, and is barely staying above Hordes (which is really just the same game as Warmachine, there is a reason why they call it warmahordes).

    AoS is actually a place lower on the ranking than WFB was in 2012 https://icv2.com/articles/games/view/23501/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-lines-spring-2012, just before 8th edition really hurt the tournament scene, X-wing was released, and Warmahordes started gaining traction.

    WFB didn't lose out because of a bad setting, or bad miniatures, it lost out because of GW's bad design and sales decisions, and because it came up against the very well designed and rapidly rising Warmahordes game not to mention fricking Star Wars (perhaps the strongest fantasy/scyfy IP in existence).

    Even 40k which had dominated the TT scene for ages is struggling to cope in this new environment.
  • IceDIceD Member Registered Users Posts: 367

    IceD said:

    I actually like WH40k WHFB, and AOS.

    **** me, right?

    Very strange, you mustn't of invested or cared for the Warhammer Lore then, otherwise you'd dislike AoS for destroying it, right? WH40k may be going the same way as fantasy from what I've been reading, if it does then literally riots need to occur... It's a lot more than just a table top game
    Who are you to say that? I've played WHFB and owned a Nurgle, VC and lizardmen army.

    I collect and play Chaos on 40k and in december ive starter collecting Khorne chaos faction for AOS. And ive Just ordered the books to get familiair with the Lore.

    Just because someone does not agree with your opinion does not mean they are not fans. Quite the opposite actually. Give AOS a chance, its quite fun to play and the models are awesome.
    Fear me, mortals, for I am the Anointed, the Favoured Son of Chaos, the Scourge of the World. The armies of the gods rally behind me, and it is by my will and by my sword that your weakling nations shall fall. - Archaon, Lord of the End Times.

    TEAM - CHAOS
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
  • GamgeeGamgee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,908
    Well if it's not selling better than it's catching up fast since the frontline guys are now talking about AoS and its continual growth all over the place. Granted that is the tournament scene. Heck their AoS podcasts are now longer than their 40k ones.

    Your right about the sales not being as good, but yet everything I see is showing it picking up fast. I also can't remember where but I think I seen a GW interview where they mention 40k sales are slowing and there was speculation by internet folks if it was AoS cannibalizing 40k sales.

    Ah well all I know is that the perception of it is changing fast out there and it's picking up pace extremely fast. I know I'm jumping ship from 40k and even one of my friends was considering it too.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844
    GunKing said:

    I don't mind End Times that much, it has a lot of cool events. It is a bit of a shame that it led to the end of the Warhammer Fantasy IP, which I prefer the aesthetics and story of over the AoS, primarily because most of WHFB factions and setting have a real world inspiration, AoS is ultra high fantasy, which isn't my preference.

    Still Warhammer Fantasy isn't the only series that ended with the setting just kind of fading, same **** happens in LOTR when the Third Age comes to a close and mysticism starts to die out, or with Conan the Barbarian and the Hyperborean Age passing over.

    Well the End Times have many literally explosive events, because at this point GW was not holding back, and GW didn't care about keeping the status quo anymore, as they did(on purpose) in the past.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760
    Tayvar said:

    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.

    Dark Magic includes all 8 colours, the same way High Magic does, except it's channelled through force of will rather than finesse. This makes casting Dark Magic more dangerous than chanelling a single colour or using High Magic. Also, the Winds of Magic technically come from the Warp not the Realms of Chaos.
  • apostolispapostolisp Member Registered Users Posts: 198
    Since I’m totally unaware of End Times, AoS, 40k and just starting to read army books online and watch related Lore videos ,about WH Fantasy only, I have a couple of questions ,if you could please help.

    1)The Time of Legends novels are set in WH Fantasy or in a later universe/time period?

    2) How many novels (more or less ) refer to WH Fantasy ,End Times, AoS and 40k ?

    3) If CA’s Warhammer games continue to be massive economical success , could it be possible for them to even hire script writers , buy the rights from G.W for the Fantasy set only(which is dead if I understand correctly) and continue the unfinished stories of 8th Edition, create alternatives to the ones that led to End Times ,even create new races, lords or armies which could give birth to new games in the upcoming years or decades?
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844

    Gamgee said:

    Gamgee said:

    Without Age of Sigmar no Kharadron Overlords. AoS is currently outselling 40k. The creativity and support being funnelled into it shows compared to the 346889 million space marine release. I'll take the end times and AoS which is going to make a kickass rts someday.

    Unfortunately not everyone is blessed with sound judgement or good taste... What a sad predicament for the future, AoS... the fantasy version rip off of 40k, suits the way things are going in our society really, it's like the Mcdonalds of wargames quick pick up and play, not really quality, just consumption and over emphasised crap for overly enthusiastic, easily pleased, non-competitive losers to buy in to, the system we live in creates the environment for utter **** to flourish, just look at the music industry for evidence of that fact
    Kharadron Overlords are worth everything. The lore is more of... guideline anyways. YARRHAAARRR!

    AoS outselling 40k. https://creativetwilight.com/positive-age-of-sigmar/


    Okay I am convinced now that AoS is a silly game for 12 yrs olds
    True, also GW change the name Dwarfs to lame "Duardin" and "Kharadron", for trademark reasons.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760

    3) If CA’s Warhammer games continue to be massive economical success , could it be possible for them to even hire script writers , buy the rights from G.W for the Fantasy set only(which is dead if I understand correctly) and continue the unfinished stories of 8th Edition, create alternatives to the ones that led to End Times ,even create new races, lords or armies which could give birth to new games in the upcoming years or decades?

    TW:WH sort of accomplishes that already doesn't it, with the "Time of Peace" following Archaon's defeat? There isn't much actual writing in TW games, so unless CA is planning to launch a different series in the Warhammer setting, I think the best they can do is erase End Times-specific lore and balance the campaign to remain playable after Archaon. I suppose they could also move the lore forward through Quest Battles.

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 8,408
    I don't hate Age of Sigmar. I barely know what it is. I am sad that Warhammer Fantasy Battles is no more though.

    Me and a friend have been debating whether we should pick up the core rules for AoS and maybe an army book. But I am having a hard time getting into it. As soon as I do some research it seems to me to have virtually nothing to do with WFB. I'd imagine it would be easier to get into had I never actually played WFB. But now it just seems like a different beast all together. For all it's flaws I do miss WFB when playing Total War Warhammer.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,030
    Mixed views from former WHFB players should be expected, it's not a monolith of single game players.

    I'd be playing 40K with the increasingly popular skirmish rules if I wanted a game like AOS. There's a reason people played fantasy instead of 40K, they were two entirely different games. GW's impressive efforts to kill it over the last few editions notwithstanding, the game had a core player base that only somewhat overlapped with 40K. As someone with only marginal interest in 40K, being what I think of as an inferior product for simulating tactical battles even though it's a really cool setting, WHFB turning into 40K-lite was a nightmare. If I'd instead spent my days wishing WHFB was more like 40K because I loved the looser game design, but really wanted the fantasy environment, AOS would be either a dream come true or a horrible tease with it's super light rules and not space marine additions.

    AOS sales include people buying up every bit of WHFB stock they could get their hands on before the models went out of print. I take such claims with a grain of salt. I'd have blown a few grand putting together a VC, Dwarf and Wood Elf army if I didn't have a talent for sculpting. Instead, I have a couple blocks of wax in a box behind me that I'll start turning into miniatures at some point when the fancy takes me. I'm so good at sculpting and so poor at painting that it's actually a minor addition to the level of time investment required. Any idiot can make molds these days, with room temperature vulcanizing silicone that can handle the temperature of molten pewter and be used repeatedly.

    Likewise, the 40K sales probably aren't sliding because of it. Odds are the rule glut and constant expansion is killing off 40K, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Games like Dawn of War gave them massive boosts to player interest, but nothing can halt the simple reality that it can cost you three to four times as much money to start playing 40K now than it did 20 years ago despite a switch from pewter to plastic and resin which are both dirt cheap by comparison. The cost of plastic is negligible at high volume, the mold will last forever.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760
    psychoak said:

    I'd have blown a few grand putting together a VC, Dwarf and Wood Elf army if I didn't have a talent for sculpting. Instead, I have a couple blocks of wax in a box behind me that I'll start turning into miniatures at some point when the fancy takes me. I'm so good at sculpting and so poor at painting that it's actually a minor addition to the level of time investment required.

    Wow, I didn't realize sculpting was so easy. It's quite likely that you would've spent a few grand and then sold the figures on Ebay for half that price, after painting a handful and realizing the amount of time and work required to paint a WFB army. That was GW's critical mistake with 7e and 8e; they were selling an illusion. Only the most dedicated hobbyist could ever hope to achieve the quality and quantity of models & scenery depicted in their books and required by their rulesets. Anybody can muster up a few hundred bucks, not everyone can paint a WFB army.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,573
    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
  • shinrosshinros Registered Users Posts: 1,517
    We have no idea how much AOS and 40k is selling people claiming to know how much they are selling have no such data to confirm such things why? Because GW does not release their numbers all we have is analyzing finance reports and rumor mongers.

    It's obvious to anyone that 40k is still the golden goose but according to bolter and chainsword someone who did an analysis of the last financial report noted that the recent growth is due to AOS carrying it's weight as a viable system and 40k no longer having to pay for fantasy like how it was before.

    Before fantasy was canned rumor mongers have said it was only 15% of their income more than a year ago the last report we had it was 30%.

    created : 11 months ago

    https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/784

    sales numbers

    -. AoS is now roughly 30% of sales. 40k is still outperforming by a large margin, but AoS numbers are healthy. what to take away from this is that AoS will continue forward, it's here to stay, there's no plans to go backwards on it.

    Also to try and discount the people who run this blog on a wargaming website people will laugh you out of the topic said post also predicted future releases with accuracy and hastings frequents said blog as well.

    Then at adepticon GW announced that the general handbook is the highest selling rule supplement they ever released. The proceeded to talk about translating some things from AOS to 40k, three ways to play a few rules.

    Logically if AOS was doing terrible they would not do this because why would you translate certain systems from a failing product into your golden goose?

    Also in the report before the one we currently have now(where sales were flat) GW said this.

    We learnt some valuable
    lessons during the year on how to deliver product system changes on this scale and as we released more of the range in the second half of
    the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years."

    This was the period before they even released the GW handbook and the growth GW are seeing after the period of the AOS summer campaign and general handbook.

    Also their royalties is only 1/6th of their income now I am going to be honest what confuses me greatly about many people on the forums. They claim to hate GW, They claim to hate end times and what it did to WHFB and they also say in their opinion GW is a crap company.

    Yet why did you buy this game? Right now GW's stocks are at levels not see in 10+ years and you are just fueling the thing you supposedly hate with your own cash? In my eyes it looks like GW is pretty much slapping you across the face still and taking your money still no matter how much you enjoy CA's work.

    Of course it's your cash and this is only my opinion I no longer give money to square enix after what they did to nosgoth.

    To claim again that AOS is only popular in the UK I don't know about this either considering we only have anecdotal's from people let's look at the kharadron pre orders. If you are into wargaming and you visit forums you should know many people like the new release and there are barely anyone who dislikes them.










    Nagash: When Nagash reaches out to crush his enemies, it is with a million hands. When Nagash seeks out his prey, it is with a million eyes.....
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,030
    I already have 4k points in Bretonnians. :) I'm well aware of how long it would take me to paint them, about 10 hours a knight. :(

    Check out Mold Max 60, it's an impressive step up over single use plaster casting. :)
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760
    edited April 2017
    psychoak said:

    I already have 4k points in Bretonnians. :) I'm well aware of how long it would take me to paint them, about 10 hours a knight. :(

    10 hours/knight is pretty decent actually, I would probably only be able to finish the main painting in 10 hours, and would then need a few extra hours for patterns and heraldry. I know one or two people who can paint pro-quality models in less than half that time, but those people are freaks of nature. :)

  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760
    Tayvar said:

    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.

    All of that additional Malekith/Morathi historical detail was in the 7e Dark Elf book (by Gav Thorpe). Matt Ward just re-heated Gav's writing for 8e and made a few subtle tweaks.

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,573
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
  • HisShadowBGHisShadowBG Registered Users Posts: 2,583
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
    Who is this Morath you speak of? xD
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,844

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
    Who is this Morath you speak of? xD
    It's the twin brother of Morathi, never heard of him? they was like Android 18 and Android 17. :D
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