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Lore question: Why do you hate the Endtimes ?

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  • boyfightsboyfights Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,023
    Those new space dwarfs look like they were ripped straight out of warmachine, nice of GW to finally bring squats back though I guess
    boyfights you are always here to confirmate every spark of originality
    or reason burns or acid bruises anyone,
    stop your gladiator love for agressions.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,843
    boyfights said:

    Those new space dwarfs look like they were ripped straight out of warmachine, nice of GW to finally bring squats back though I guess

    Nothing like ripping off Space Dwarfs and Trademarking them with an new silly name. :)
  • CirueloCiruelo Registered Users Posts: 107
    edited April 2017
    I like end times, what I don't like is that it really is the end of times

    I dislike people accusing GW for want to make money... really? a company trying to make money is now a bad thing? If AoS is really making that much money then I don't see killing fantasy a bad commercial move after all.

    I don't buy warhammer miniatures, too expensive for me, the price is not adapted to the contry's mean income and it might be not so expensive in UK but here in Spain, where salary is half of that from UK, buying miniatures is really a luxury. I liked warhammer and I use to play with friend's miniature, don't really care about the AoS, for us is still the same lore as before. Sometimes we use AoS rules because they are more seamless and better when you don't have that much time to play a game, with some twists of course.

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,573
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
    But they did try to undo his work, what else would you call the destruction of the vortex? They may have thought they could control chaos, dosent make them less wrong.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 11,843

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
    But they did try to undo his work, what else would you call the destruction of the vortex? They may have thought they could control chaos, doesn't make them less wrong.
    Yes, but this time they tried to mess with the vortex only as an desperate last resort. Also Aenarion himself was not an fan of the idea of the vortex in the first place, but he accept it in the end.

    "As Malekith’s spells hurled back the White Lions, Sulekh loomed over Caledor, acidic venom dripping from her jaws. With a defiant shout, Caledor snatched up Mirialith - the Spear of Midnight Fire - from the dead hand of Finudel, and cast it into Sulekh’s open maw. The magical weapon pierced the brain of the Black Dragon. In her death throes Sulekh cast Malekith from her back, pitching him into the ranks of the Phoenix Guard. Surrounded by enemies, Malekith had no choice but to cut his way clear and flee, leaving dozens of slain Elves in his wake. After the battle of Maledor, with the jeers of the victorious High Elves still burning in his memory, Malekith’s patience utterly snapped. His army was all but shattered by the unending fighting, and with the resistance of his foes showing no sign of breaking, the Witch King made one last, desperate bid for victory."

    "In Nagarythe, Morathi and Malekith had long studied the blacker arts of magic. A great number of warlocks and witches followed them, drawing directly' on the power of Chaos. It was to these dark wizards that Malekith turned. He gathered a huge number of' prisoners in preparation for a massive sacrifice and announced his final plan. He and his sorcerers would unbind the magic of the Ulthuan vortex created by Caledor Dragontamer, unleashing the full fury of the Realms of Chaos upon the island. The Witch King would summon the Daemon hordes to fight at his side and sweep away all opposition. Knowing that their fate was tied to that of the Witch King, the sorcerers agreed to this insane gambit. Malekith and his followers were willing to risk everything for victory - even the future of the whole world. To their minds, failure was incomprehensible; to live in exile and obscurity was unthinkable for the Witch King. He would rather the world ended than see it ruled by any other. Only one of his disciples, Urathion of Ullar, saw the madness of Malekith's ploy and escaped Nagarythe to bring word to Caledor."

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Malekith#Civil_War
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,898
    "Whaa whaa! If I can't have it no one can! I'm a budget level B-Movie villain! Whaa whaa!"

    Ah good old Malekith.
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  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,573
    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    Tayvar said:

    The change from Cult of Slanesh to he one of Atharthi doesn't really change that much, they just switch the names. Morathi still make pacts with demons and manipulate stuff...The really dumb thing begin with 8 edition and End times for me

    I wouldn't have a problem with the Slaanesh>>Atharti change if GW had bothered to explain why Dark Elves are less prone to Chaos worship than humans. Instead we get a line of fluff explaining that they're actually very prone to Slaaneshi corruption, but for some reason they worship Atharti instead. It's sort of incoherent.
    This is pretty much it honestly.

    Pre 8th ed Dark Elves were more or less closeted Chaos worshipers at best who wanted to undo Aenarion's work, or played with Chaos because they thought they could master it while they were secretly being hoodwinked by Morathi since Dhar is basically unaligned Chaos magic.

    Post 8th ed Dark Elves do all the above, but all the while worshiping Elven gods that do not like Chaos and would not be okay with their followers flirting with the enemy.

    It's just...straight up bad writing, especially since they have units like the Warlocks that are explicitly tied to Slaanesh.
    Dhar is basically unaligned chaos magic? by that principle you can say it about any lore of magic in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, all magic is "evil" to different degrees in Warhammer Fantasy Setting, as the Winds of Magic comes from the Realm of Chaos. That's the reason that Witch Hunters dislike and distrust for Any Kind of Magic(including Magic that is used by Empire Wizards) is quite justified. It's quite silly for the Dark Elves to try and undo Aenarion's work, in the end of the day both Malekith and Morath was important part of Aenarion's Family, so I like that 8th Edition gave Malekith and Morath much more Depth, instead of them being an cartoony villains.
    How did it give them more depth?
    It's make their connection to Aenarion and the High Elves much more believable and complex.
    Their connection to Aenarion was always there. I didn't see any new complexity being added to them , their base story was always interesting, they were never "cartoon villains"
    Trying to "undo Aenarion's work", as @Nemotheelf call it, don't helps in feeling that connection. Much better for Malekith and Morath to follow Aenarion's legacy, in their own way.
    But they did try to undo his work, what else would you call the destruction of the vortex? They may have thought they could control chaos, doesn't make them less wrong.
    Yes, but this time they tried to mess with the vortex only as an desperate last resort. Also Aenarion himself was not an fan of the idea of the vortex in the first place, but he accept it in the end.

    "As Malekith’s spells hurled back the White Lions, Sulekh loomed over Caledor, acidic venom dripping from her jaws. With a defiant shout, Caledor snatched up Mirialith - the Spear of Midnight Fire - from the dead hand of Finudel, and cast it into Sulekh’s open maw. The magical weapon pierced the brain of the Black Dragon. In her death throes Sulekh cast Malekith from her back, pitching him into the ranks of the Phoenix Guard. Surrounded by enemies, Malekith had no choice but to cut his way clear and flee, leaving dozens of slain Elves in his wake. After the battle of Maledor, with the jeers of the victorious High Elves still burning in his memory, Malekith’s patience utterly snapped. His army was all but shattered by the unending fighting, and with the resistance of his foes showing no sign of breaking, the Witch King made one last, desperate bid for victory."

    "In Nagarythe, Morathi and Malekith had long studied the blacker arts of magic. A great number of warlocks and witches followed them, drawing directly' on the power of Chaos. It was to these dark wizards that Malekith turned. He gathered a huge number of' prisoners in preparation for a massive sacrifice and announced his final plan. He and his sorcerers would unbind the magic of the Ulthuan vortex created by Caledor Dragontamer, unleashing the full fury of the Realms of Chaos upon the island. The Witch King would summon the Daemon hordes to fight at his side and sweep away all opposition. Knowing that their fate was tied to that of the Witch King, the sorcerers agreed to this insane gambit. Malekith and his followers were willing to risk everything for victory - even the future of the whole world. To their minds, failure was incomprehensible; to live in exile and obscurity was unthinkable for the Witch King. He would rather the world ended than see it ruled by any other. Only one of his disciples, Urathion of Ullar, saw the madness of Malekith's ploy and escaped Nagarythe to bring word to Caledor."

    http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Malekith#Civil_War
    That's nothing new, it was always stated that undoing the vortex was his last desperate gamble.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,030
    10 hours/knight is pretty decent actually, I would probably only be able to finish the main painting in 10 hours, and would then need a few extra hours for patterns and heraldry. I know one or two people who can paint pro-quality models in less than half that time, but those people are freaks of nature. :)
    Alas, you gravely misunderstand me. :( It's 10 hours for some really sad paint job compared to the pro quality stuff. My knights look "okay" but they aren't even remotely like the pretty pictures in the books. Hand drawing heraldry is... problematic.
  • Herr_ArnulfeHerr_Arnulfe Registered Users Posts: 760
    psychoak said:

    Alas, you gravely misunderstand me. :( It's 10 hours for some really sad paint job compared to the pro quality stuff. My knights look "okay" but they aren't even remotely like the pretty pictures in the books. Hand drawing heraldry is... problematic.

    My paintjobs rarely approach WD quality either, but I am always striving for it and falling short despite best efforts. :)
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,030
    I know it's impossible and don't even try, can't do such miraculous brush strokes to save my life. My brother has actually done paint jobs at that level, he tried to explain to me how to do it. :)
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,686
    edited April 2017
    Moved to TW Chat.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • TheFatTheFat Registered Users Posts: 28
    Long time lurker, occasional ranter, but I have collected WFB from the mid 90s, so feel my two cents might be worth something.


    The problem I always found vis-a-vis lore and fluff - and thus, End Times and AOS - was the lack of a coherent vision for WFB and equally the decline of skill in keeping it together. Had there been a single author, a single progenitor, then the universe could have developed more cleverly. As it was, it ended up pulled in different directions, depending on who was directing what at what time, and which faction they liked the most. This was never more evidenced than in the often contradictory army books, especially in later editions.

    To me, the greatest generational change came between 4th and 5th edition. I remember thinking, for the first time, how childish the setting suddenly felt. I was ten years old, but I did not appreciate the brightly cartooned rulebook. I was grateful when 6th edition returned the game to its grimier roots. This, however, was just the beginning. Warhammer though the 2000s was gradually disrobed of subtlety and maturity, until it seemed the writers were barely out of their teens, incapable of thinking outside limited linear themes and writing with the sort of purple prose that would make an English teacher blush. The humour, which was very tongue-in-cheek in earlier editions (especially Third, which may have been Warhammer's apogee), morphed into slapstick orc and goblin silliness. The game designers of the 1980s, may of whom were literary figures in their own right, failed to create a decent legacy within GW, and it seemed the company instead recruited fans with no larger frame of reference, who knew no history, nor the greater narratives from which Warhammer drew its inspiration.

    One of the best GW novels I read in the 1990s was by Brian Craig, called 'Storm Warriors', and based on the tale of the Germanic Wild Hunt (even down to the King's name, Herla; find the story synopsis here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herla). This story was set in Albion and Slaaneshi Elves replaced the dwarfs in the original folkstory. At any rate, this was a solid, well-written book that stood on its own. I compared this to the trite Albion campaign run by GW a few years later, and realised that the company was no longer serious. Dan Abnett is one of the few authors who fought a decent rearguard action against the dumbing-down of the lore, and his novel Riders of the Dead is the best attempt I've read to humanise Chaos Warriors beyond cartoon-character villainy.

    Many of the GW stories and pieces of fluff and lore felt very constrictive. In my view, the less rigid and canonical the fluff, the better. This allows players to alternate the setting and the story themselves - one of the strengths of 40K is the enormous setting wherein players can cook up nearly anything they like. This was originally the intent of WFB as spelled out in earlier additions. The End Times and AOS that followed typify the top-down approach to lore, which I didn't like - never mind the droll cynicism of inserting space marines into the setting to try to tempt 40k players. Why drain all the mystery out of a fantasy setting? Moreso if you're going to replace it with high-school-level prose and shallow, comic-book-style concepts? People have begrudged the change of setting from low fantasy to high well enough already for me to avoid dwelling on this for long, though commentary on the ceding of the fantasy ground to Warcraft is worth noting, and this influence seems everywhere in AOS (a nice example of the student becoming the teacher).

    TL;DR - Warhammer was done a disservice via the End Times and AOS by GW, but the fluff and lore has been deteriorating for twenty years anyway, so this should come as no surprise to anyone.
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