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Why is Thorgrim so weak?

DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
edited August 2016 in Balancing Discussions
There's a reason people almost never bring Thorgrim, Ungrim is a much more reliable LL, i mean Thorgrim costs 2104 with all abilities and is so so weak. I mean try a custom game him versus a simple ork warboss which costs 1383 and he will almost loose, in the battle i made he had like 300 hp left. For the cost of an arachnarok i expected a beast of a LL like in TT. Not to mention that his only item (Book of grudges) costs 227 and only adds 8 melee attack, what the hell? He's only upside is he has magical attacks but that only really matters against ethereal. He needs a serious buff or price decrease he gets his ass beaten by almost every other lord or hero. Also i think he should really have better abilities other than foe seeker and deadly onslaught, i mean deadly onslaught gives +18% charge bonus but he only has 22 to begin with he isnt a lord whom you expect much on the charge so why give abilities to slightly enhance that? He should have other buffs imo.

Edit: There are more really interesting reasons why he isnt very good on the comments below, do read
Post edited by DerpCat on
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Comments

  • Le_StuntieLe_Stuntie Posts: 11Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    DerpCat said:

    There's a reason people almost never bring Thorgrim, Ungrim is a much more reliable LL, i mean Thorgrim costs 2104 with all abilities and is so so weak. I mean try a custom game him versus a simple ork warboss which costs 1383 and he will almost loose, in the battle i made he had like 300 hp left. For the cost of an arachnarok i expected a beast of a LL like in TT. Not to mention that his only item (Book of grudges) costs 227 and only adds 8 melee attack, what the hell? He's only upside is he has magical attacks but that only really matters against ethereal. He needs a serious buff or price decrease he gets his **** beaten by almost every other lord or hero. Also i think he should really have better abilities other than foe seeker and deadly onslaught, i mean deadly onslaught gives +18% charge bonus but he only has 22 to begin with he isnt a lord whom you expect much on the charge so why give abilities to slightly enhance that? He should have other buffs imo.

    I expected Thorgrim to fill the role of a heavy hitter for the dwarfs, like the terrorgheist is for the VP the spider is to the GS and so on and so forth. I expected when i was fighting the dwarfs and i saw Thorgrim i would be oh **** i need to kill that. He is so wimpy and fragile i dont like it at all. A big waste of money and he doenst even have interesting abilities and like you said the ones he does have are kind of pointless for him.

    Edit: Regarding the the book of grudges that is probably going to change in the next patch, the whole customize your characters thing is very recent so a few hiccups are inevitable.
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    The big thing with Thorgrim at the moment is that his 'high king' ability does nothing. It's supposed to make basically the whole Dawi army frenzied if he is wounded.

    Great book of grudges is actually a half decent unique item, stack it with the runesmith's +8 attack and all of a sudden Dwarf warriors and Longbeards around him have melee attack higher than Chosen. Unfortunately all LL unique items except Louen's are overshadowed by healing potions at the moment.

    Ungrimm is your heavy hitter, Thorgrim is more a support lord but he definitely needs some love.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • Just1moreJust1more Posts: 103Registered Users
    Riggsen said:

    The big thing with Thorgrim at the moment is that his 'high king' ability does nothing. It's supposed to make basically the whole Dawi army frenzied if he is wounded.

    Great book of grudges is actually a half decent unique item, stack it with the runesmith's +8 attack and all of a sudden Dwarf warriors and Longbeards around him have melee attack higher than Chosen. Unfortunately all LL unique items except Louen's are overshadowed by healing potions at the moment.

    Ungrimm is your heavy hitter, Thorgrim is more a support lord but he definitely needs some love.

    I keep seeing this argument used, ''his ability is good if you stack it with the runesmith!''

    Think about that for a second, not only is his ability WORSE than that of the runesmith, it also Costs MORE, and it's only any good if you stack it with a better buff? I mean no ****, 2nd, his high king ability, has anyone bothered to compare it to Louens ? https://puu.sh/qn9X1/e982e7ef55.jpg, and then Thorgrim's high king ability: https://puu.sh/qn9Vz/9c78053a46.jpg.

    So lets get this straight, most if not all heroes have a complete upgrade to Thorgrim's Book of grudges, while being cheaper

    His High king Buff is useless, and worse than other Lord's while being more expensive (I have heard the argument that Bretonnia needs the leadership more and thus thats why its balanced, Dwarfes are the worst race in MP right now, so thats invalid), his charging buff is useless on him, He counts as Large so he dies insanely fast to anti large, He has no large charge defense making him literally able to lose half his hp if he gets charged by a big lord on a dragon for example. Get the picture? This guy needs a balance more than any lord in the game, he is currently useless. Oh and his stats are just bad too just to add it to the mix.
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    Give him some glasses. His problem is probably that he just can't see. Too much time in front of a book trying to concentrate on those tiny dwarf runes.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    Im really glad to see that a lot of people think he deserves way better then his current state
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    Doesn't the Throne of Power itself give Thorgrim a bonus magic save on TT, not to mention the Axe of Grimnir being a very powerful weapon on TT being able to wound anything on a 2+ regardless of toughness.

    Not to mention all Dwarf Lords are a bit lackluster in the game at the moment, Ungrim Ironfist cannot kill a Gorebull in single combat (or even catch) and all Dwarfs Lords lack the benefit of being able to be upgraded with Runes like in the TT.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    erza321 said:

    Doesn't the Throne of Power itself give Thorgrim a bonus magic save on TT, not to mention the Axe of Grimnir being a very powerful weapon on TT being able to wound anything on a 2+ regardless of toughness.

    Not to mention all Dwarf Lords are a bit lackluster in the game at the moment, Ungrim Ironfist cannot kill a Gorebull in single combat (or even catch) and all Dwarfs Lords lack the benefit of being able to be upgraded with Runes like in the TT.

    Yes dwarfs were very poorly made, everything that made them cool in TT is not here, their LL's are underwhelming and there some serious design flaws if they dont get fixed i'll stop playing TTW all together just because i dont think its fare CA is playing favorites and some factions get left behind
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    And what annoys me further is that CA sees that dwarfs are under performing and they just start buffing units, its not just buffs that the dwarfs need they need design changes above all , they need runes ASAP, they need better much more powerful LL's (thorgrim in TT was a beast) , they need changes in artillery, they need better heroes in MP, they have some serious design flaws, but that costs money so i guess we'll just see some stats on a chart going up, my dream is that a CA Dev just told me , "we are introducing runes and the anvil of doom, bc thats what made dwarfs unique in TT". Just think about it, in TT their advantages relied heavily on runes, on misfires (other factions misfires were deadly to their art) and in dispelling, NONE made it into the game of course dwarfs are under performing.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Posts: 823Registered Users
    Sir Lard ass cant even get off his chair. Thats why he's weak.
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • Combat_WombatCombat_Wombat Posts: 4,092Registered Users
    If they changed ranged units to actually fire over the heads of the guys in front of them, maybe dwarves would have a better chance. As soon as the melee starts, ranged units sit there and play with themselves.
  • chrisplayschrisplays Posts: 93Registered Users

    If they changed ranged units to actually fire over the heads of the guys in front of them, maybe dwarves would have a better chance. As soon as the melee starts, ranged units sit there and play with themselves.

    That is where micromanagement comes into play :smile:
    As for Thorgrim, I see him as a buffer of troops and this he does really well actually. Him with a rune smith makes even miner melee monsters. He is a bit on the weak side but nothing terrible...
    _______________________________________________________
    Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
    Euripides
  • Just1moreJust1more Posts: 103Registered Users

    If they changed ranged units to actually fire over the heads of the guys in front of them, maybe dwarves would have a better chance. As soon as the melee starts, ranged units sit there and play with themselves.

    That is where micromanagement comes into play :smile:
    As for Thorgrim, I see him as a buffer of troops and this he does really well actually. Him with a rune smith makes even miner melee monsters. He is a bit on the weak side but nothing terrible...
    he is a terrible buffer
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    All Dwarfen artillery can fire over other units, the only Dwarf ranged units that can't fire over other units are the Thunderers and Iron Drakes.

    it would be nice if CA gave the Dwarf Heroes and Lords the option to select up to three Runes (the same way other races now pick spells), instead of locking all the Runes within the Runesmiths skill tree as passive buffs.

    The best thing is that the Runes on TT already had balancing rules that CA could just impliment into Total War Warhammer, there's the Rule of Three which meant a Dwarf character could only equip 3 Runes and Rule of Pride which meant you couldn't equip characters with the same three combination of Runes (don't know if this is only meant for "Epic" level Runes).

    Edit: Shouldn't the Dwarfs Lords and Heroes (mainly the Thane) have more abilities that buff other units to make up for their lack of magic, for example Manfred has about 5 abilities and all Dwarf Lord have only three.
  • beetlebuddybeetlebuddy Posts: 130Registered Users
    there's a mod somewhere that gives him a few hammerers as body guards. great idea but the steam page says it breaks the levelling up unfortunately
  • zaspacerzaspacer Posts: 47Registered Users
    DerpCat said:

    There's a reason people almost never bring Thorgrim, Ungrim is a much more reliable LL, i mean Thorgrim costs 2104 with all abilities and is so so weak.

    LegendofTotalWar used Thorgrim to win one of his Rounds vs. Vampire Counts in the Finals of the Battle for the Old World Tournament. Tournament Rules required use of a Legendary Lord, but he did pick Thorgrim.

    His Thorgrim:
    Thorgrim Grudgebearer + High King + Stand Your Ground + The Great Book of Grudges (Total Points: 2127)

    You can see it here:

    Battle 2 - 19:01 (start: 24:33)
    Dwarfs Army List Review - 17:18
    Post Battle 2 Wrap-Up - 31:06
  • DoppDopp Junior Member Posts: 48Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    erza321 said:


    The best thing is that the Runes on TT already had balancing rules that CA could just impliment into Total War Warhammer, there's the Rule of Three which meant a Dwarf character could only equip 3 Runes and Rule of Pride which meant you couldn't equip characters with the same three combination of Runes (don't know if this is only meant for "Epic" level Runes).


    Rule of Three meant maximum three runes per runic item, so you could theoretically put up to three weapon runes, three armour runes, and three talisman runes on the same character, points permitting (plus up to three banner runes if he also carried the army standard).

    Rule of Pride meant each runic item had to be different: no spamming winning combos on every character (except for the Rune of Stone, which was mass-produced; in older editions Ironbreakers all had the Rune of Stone instead of Gromril Armour).

    Rule of Form meant weapon runes go on weapons, armour runes on armour, and so on.

    'Jealous Runes' meant master runes could only be taken once per army, and only one could be placed on each runic item (but a single character could have, for example, three runic items, each with a master rune). This last rule is sometimes broken: the Dwarf-made Runefangs (given to the Elector Counts) wounded automatically and ignored armour, which would normally require two master runes, and during the War of the Beard there was no limit on master runes at all.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    zaspacer said:

    DerpCat said:

    There's a reason people almost never bring Thorgrim, Ungrim is a much more reliable LL, i mean Thorgrim costs 2104 with all abilities and is so so weak.

    LegendofTotalWar used Thorgrim to win one of his Rounds vs. Vampire Counts in the Finals of the Battle for the Old World Tournament. Tournament Rules required use of a Legendary Lord, but he did pick Thorgrim.

    His Thorgrim:
    Thorgrim Grudgebearer + High King + Stand Your Ground + The Great Book of Grudges (Total Points: 2127)

    You can see it here:

    Battle 2 - 19:01 (start: 24:33)
    Dwarfs Army List Review - 17:18
    Post Battle 2 Wrap-Up - 31:06
    So? I've used Thorgrim once or twice that doenst make him good
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users
    That final of the tournament was kind of a joke, a clash between the two "best" Total War players in the final and it came down to who had the cheesiest build or if they knew how to counter them.
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    Thor grim can't get tossed around by mounted enemies unlike your other options. He's also the best lord choice against vampire counts and the most resistant to getting sniped out by the flying bro force.

    Ungrim can kick some major butt for sure... until he ends up getting cycle charged to death in the late game.

    He's best with hammerers to improve their hit chance especially when combined with a rune smith.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users

    Thor grim can't get tossed around by mounted enemies unlike your other options. He's also the best lord choice against vampire counts and the most resistant to getting sniped out by the flying bro force.

    Ungrim can kick some major butt for sure... until he ends up getting cycle charged to death in the late game.

    He's best with hammerers to improve their hit chance especially when combined with a rune smith.

    Aro you talking about campaign or MP? Bc in MP i think its well accepted he sucks, he almost looses 1Vs1 against a simple ork warboss
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    MP. if you want a lord to kill other lords in melee you take Ungrim. I thought that was obvious. Thorgrim is used against VC because he can kill any of their lords and has magic attacks.

    For just supporting the line and plugging gaps thorgrim s also better if you have the points to spare. Being able to not get thrown across the map by a charging Gorebull is also better than maybe being theoretically able to kill him if you could stop getting knocked over.

    It's "well accepted" that armor and AP are over valued. It's well accepted that GW troops are inferior to shield versions in the next thread you read which is totally contradictory.

    So...yeah the consensus opinion is generally dumb.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    edited August 2016

    MP. if you want a lord to kill other lords in melee you take Ungrim. I thought that was obvious. Thorgrim is used against VC because he can kill any of their lords and has magic attacks.

    For just supporting the line and plugging gaps thorgrim s also better if you have the points to spare. Being able to not get thrown across the map by a charging Gorebull is also better than maybe being theoretically able to kill him if you could stop getting knocked over.

    It's "well accepted" that armor and AP are over valued. It's well accepted that GW troops are inferior to shield versions in the next thread you read which is totally contradictory.

    So...yeah the consensus opinion is generally dumb.

    What? Everything you said from start to finish except the first paragraph is nonsensical.
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    DerpCat said:

    What? Everything you said from start to finish except the first paragraph is nonsensical.

    What is so hard to understand about Thorgrim doesn't get knocked down, or knocked back?

    I just ran 6 custom battles, Thorgrim vs Grimgor and Thorgrim won 3 of them. Grimgor doesn't stand a chance unless he can use his magic weapon during the fight, and even with waiting to engage until the cooldown is up he can still lose the fight! Without Skitsnak, or whatever Grimgor's axe, Thorgrim won 2 of 3. With Skitsnak being saved for the fight, Grimgor won 2 of 3.

    Seriously, he can beat GRIMGOR FREAKIN' IRONHIDE in melee half the time. How is that 'weak'?

    EDIT:I will say the High King ability sucks. It only triggers when he's wavering, which means Thorgrim is seconds from death anyway. It 'might' stop a terror bomb, but that's about it.
  • salsichasalsicha Posts: 3,572Registered Users
    Armor-piercing and Melee Defense both heavily affect the outcome of a battle. Armor-piercing because the damage calculation heavily favors armor-piercing damage, and Melee Defense because, when everything is armor-piercing, what matters is how well you melee, not how much armor you have.

    For example, Dwarfs have scads of armor, so everyone uses armor-piercing units against them. In that scenario the toughest unit in the Dwarf army is the one with the highest Melee Defense. That unit is naturally a Sword&Shield unit because shields are great for defending yourself in melee. Usually, the Dearfs don't need to win in melee, just buy their artillery and crossbows time to unload their ammo.

    That's not not to say that, all other things being equal, a Great Weapon unit is better or worse than a Sword&Shield unit. In this game, if the Great Weapon unit is armored, I think it generally wins, again because of the damage calculation favors armor-piercing. Should one be a counter for the other? I don't know.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users

    DerpCat said:

    What? Everything you said from start to finish except the first paragraph is nonsensical.

    What is so hard to understand about Thorgrim doesn't get knocked down, or knocked back?

    I just ran 6 custom battles, Thorgrim vs Grimgor and Thorgrim won 3 of them. Grimgor doesn't stand a chance unless he can use his magic weapon during the fight, and even with waiting to engage until the cooldown is up he can still lose the fight! Without Skitsnak, or whatever Grimgor's axe, Thorgrim won 2 of 3. With Skitsnak being saved for the fight, Grimgor won 2 of 3.

    Seriously, he can beat GRIMGOR FREAKIN' IRONHIDE in melee half the time. How is that 'weak'?

    EDIT:I will say the High King ability sucks. It only triggers when he's wavering, which means Thorgrim is seconds from death anyway. It 'might' stop a terror bomb, but that's about it.
    Doesnt get knocked back, so what? He gets pushed back by charges anyway, not being able to fall down isnt NEARLY close to the buffs he needs or deserves
  • zaspacerzaspacer Posts: 47Registered Users
    DerpCat said:


    So? I've used Thorgrim once or twice that doenst make him good

    Using "him once of twice" ≠ using and winning with him in a Finals Round in a high level Tournament.
    erza321 said:

    That final of the tournament was kind of a joke, a clash between the two "best" Total War players in the final and it came down to who had the cheesiest build or if they knew how to counter them.

    "Cheesiest Builds" and "Counter Builds" are currently the most powerful builds. They bloat power levels. And LegendofTotalWar chose Thorgrim within that context of a "most powerful build" vs. VC.

    If you want to argue that the current most powerful Tactics in TWW Competitive Multiplayer are a joke, or that the ongoing frequent upheavel from one broken meta to another is a joke, you will find a lot of agreeance throughout the community. I'm not arguing against that. But high end tournament play across games consistently maximizes OP Mechanics and Counter Picking. It's not pretty, but it literally is harnessing the most power.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,946Registered Users
    DerpCat said:

    erza321 said:

    Doesn't the Throne of Power itself give Thorgrim a bonus magic save on TT, not to mention the Axe of Grimnir being a very powerful weapon on TT being able to wound anything on a 2+ regardless of toughness.

    Not to mention all Dwarf Lords are a bit lackluster in the game at the moment, Ungrim Ironfist cannot kill a Gorebull in single combat (or even catch) and all Dwarfs Lords lack the benefit of being able to be upgraded with Runes like in the TT.

    Yes dwarfs were very poorly made, everything that made them cool in TT is not here, their LL's are underwhelming and there some serious design flaws if they dont get fixed i'll stop playing TTW all together just because i dont think its fare CA is playing favorites and some factions get left behind
    Yup. Check out my thread in the general forum about how boring the dwarfs are
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Just1moreJust1more Posts: 103Registered Users
    zaspacer said:

    DerpCat said:


    So? I've used Thorgrim once or twice that doenst make him good

    Using "him once of twice" ≠ using and winning with him in a Finals Round in a high level Tournament.
    erza321 said:

    That final of the tournament was kind of a joke, a clash between the two "best" Total War players in the final and it came down to who had the cheesiest build or if they knew how to counter them.

    "Cheesiest Builds" and "Counter Builds" are currently the most powerful builds. They bloat power levels. And LegendofTotalWar chose Thorgrim within that context of a "most powerful build" vs. VC.

    If you want to argue that the current most powerful Tactics in TWW Competitive Multiplayer are a joke, or that the ongoing frequent upheavel from one broken meta to another is a joke, you will find a lot of agreeance throughout the community. I'm not arguing against that. But high end tournament play across games consistently maximizes OP Mechanics and Counter Picking. It's not pretty, but it literally is harnessing the most power.


    Are you guys really going to use that video as an argument? a game in wich the enemy team consisted pretty much entirely of THE one and only unit in the game thorgrim is good against? seriously?

    Thor grim can't get tossed around by mounted enemies unlike your other options. He's also the best lord choice against vampire counts and the most resistant to getting sniped out by the flying bro force.

    Ungrim can kick some major butt for sure... until he ends up getting cycle charged to death in the late game.

    He's best with hammerers to improve their hit chance especially when combined with a rune smith.

    You know that thorgrim is the only one without charge defense bonus right? aka he is the absolute weakest to the flying bro force, he might not get knocked to the ground but he takes the most ammount of damage from them. Aka your argument is invalid
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    Charge defense only works if you are standing still and the enemy charges you from the front.

    The bro force can counter that by charging one bro in a second earlier or attacking from two directions. You have no charge defense when you are on your ass. And you also run the risk of being knocked out of the unit you are hiding in.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    zaspacer said:

    DerpCat said:


    So? I've used Thorgrim once or twice that doenst make him good

    Using "him once of twice" ≠ using and winning with him in a Finals Round in a high level Tournament.
    erza321 said:

    That final of the tournament was kind of a joke, a clash between the two "best" Total War players in the final and it came down to who had the cheesiest build or if they knew how to counter them.

    "Cheesiest Builds" and "Counter Builds" are currently the most powerful builds. They bloat power levels. And LegendofTotalWar chose Thorgrim within that context of a "most powerful build" vs. VC.

    If you want to argue that the current most powerful Tactics in TWW Competitive Multiplayer are a joke, or that the ongoing frequent upheavel from one broken meta to another is a joke, you will find a lot of agreeance throughout the community. I'm not arguing against that. But high end tournament play across games consistently maximizes OP Mechanics and Counter Picking. It's not pretty, but it literally is harnessing the most power.
    There are no high level players in TTW, this game barely has a sense of MP community these guys are just some random dudes who decided to make a tournament. If MP doenst even have a proper ranking system then there are no top or bottom players, in my eyes if he picked Thorgrim against VP and they brought lot of ethereals he was lucky simple as that bc Thorgrim for everything else is not good enough.
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