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Why is Thorgrim so weak?

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  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users

    Charge defense only works if you are standing still and the enemy charges you from the front.

    The bro force can counter that by charging one bro in a second earlier or attacking from two directions. You have no charge defense when you are on your ****. And you also run the risk of being knocked out of the unit you are hiding in.

    All i hear from you is Thorgrim doenst suck bc he doesnt fall on his ass, when there are tons of problems with him regarding his stats and abilities. Is not being knocked down worthy, considering he is garbage at everything else? No. He is a garbage LL . One video doesnt disprove that, everyone before patch 1 was saying chaos sucked should i find some videos of chaos winning and consider that evidence?
    And for the record Throgrim gets his ass beaten against Grimgor at every custom battle i made so i dont know what kind of mods you're running but he is definitely weaker...
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users

    DerpCat said:

    What? Everything you said from start to finish except the first paragraph is nonsensical.

    What is so hard to understand about Thorgrim doesn't get knocked down, or knocked back?

    I just ran 6 custom battles, Thorgrim vs Grimgor and Thorgrim won 3 of them. Grimgor doesn't stand a chance unless he can use his magic weapon during the fight, and even with waiting to engage until the cooldown is up he can still lose the fight! Without Skitsnak, or whatever Grimgor's axe, Thorgrim won 2 of 3. With Skitsnak being saved for the fight, Grimgor won 2 of 3.

    Seriously, he can beat GRIMGOR FREAKIN' IRONHIDE in melee half the time. How is that 'weak'?

    EDIT:I will say the High King ability sucks. It only triggers when he's wavering, which means Thorgrim is seconds from death anyway. It 'might' stop a terror bomb, but that's about it.
    This is bs
  • Le_StuntieLe_Stuntie Posts: 11Registered Users
    DerpCat said:

    DerpCat said:

    What? Everything you said from start to finish except the first paragraph is nonsensical.

    What is so hard to understand about Thorgrim doesn't get knocked down, or knocked back?

    I just ran 6 custom battles, Thorgrim vs Grimgor and Thorgrim won 3 of them. Grimgor doesn't stand a chance unless he can use his magic weapon during the fight, and even with waiting to engage until the cooldown is up he can still lose the fight! Without Skitsnak, or whatever Grimgor's axe, Thorgrim won 2 of 3. With Skitsnak being saved for the fight, Grimgor won 2 of 3.

    Seriously, he can beat GRIMGOR FREAKIN' IRONHIDE in melee half the time. How is that 'weak'?

    EDIT:I will say the High King ability sucks. It only triggers when he's wavering, which means Thorgrim is seconds from death anyway. It 'might' stop a terror bomb, but that's about it.
    This is bs
    I tested it too and thorgrim always looses, so he is definitely lying...
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    Why would I lie about something so easy to test Yourself? Did you take all their abilities? You max out both characters, take no other units but the Lord, and run them at each other. For half the tests I waited 135 seconds for grimgors axe to be up.

    I ran half as thorgrim and half as grimgors to make sure abilities were used.

    Are you playing on normal difficult to avoid the AI getting Buffs? Did you test playing both sides or always controlling one side?

    Anyway this dude also ran the same tests post patch 2. Skip to 7 minutes in.



  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    edited August 2016

    Why would I lie about something so easy to test Yourself? Did you take all their abilities? You max out both characters, take no other units but the Lord, and run them at each other. For half the tests I waited 135 seconds for grimgors axe to be up.

    I ran half as thorgrim and half as grimgors to make sure abilities were used.

    Are you playing on normal difficult to avoid the AI getting Buffs? Did you test playing both sides or always controlling one side?

    Yes why would you lie if its so easily tested?
    Yes i took all their abilities, only lords were present, im on normal , i did test both sides, Thorgrim almost looses to a simple ork warboss and he gets shredded by grimgor. Eveyr single time and its not even a close battle.

  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users

    Why would I lie about something so easy to test Yourself? Did you take all their abilities? You max out both characters, take no other units but the Lord, and run them at each other. For half the tests I waited 135 seconds for grimgors axe to be up.

    I ran half as thorgrim and half as grimgors to make sure abilities were used.

    Are you playing on normal difficult to avoid the AI getting Buffs? Did you test playing both sides or always controlling one side?

    Anyway this dude also ran the same tests post patch 2. Skip to 7 minutes in.



    Ahahah so now the video shows that Thorgrim wins every single time which isnt even coherent to YOUR side of the story because he looses sometimes according to you... ok look i tested it myself numerous times, thorgrim gets shredded, he is a weak LL and almost no one picks him for a reason he needs a buff and quite frankly i think its a given it will be on the next patch
  • zaspacerzaspacer Posts: 47Registered Users
    Just1more said:

    Are you guys really going to use that video as an argument? a game in wich the enemy team consisted pretty much entirely of THE one and only unit in the game thorgrim is good against? seriously?

    My core understanding of game tournaments comes from a Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Magic (mostly Eternal formats) tournament background (augmented with experience in or research done in other games). So bear with me. The meta in games typically boils down to what are the top Characters/Decks/Races/whatever and how they are played/built/etc (and how much they show up). And then what Characters/Decks/Races/Sideboards Counter those meta defining parameters.

    You emphasize VC being just one Race. But we're in a game where there are only 7 Races total. Where Vampire Counts is consistently showing up as a selected Race in TWW Touranments (and it showed up 2/6 times in that Finals). And we're talking about a format where currently players can at some points *see* what their opponent is playing as they select their Race/Build. So having Thorgrim as a Counter component to a Top Tier Race build isn't non-material.

    I'm not saying Thorgrim is a pan-meta defining figure or some sort of All-Star. But every component that contributes to a high level build (more meaningfully than components not taken) is not trivial.
    DerpCat said:

    zaspacer said:

    DerpCat said:


    So? I've used Thorgrim once or twice that doenst make him good

    Using "him once of twice" ≠ using and winning with him in a Finals Round in a high level Tournament.
    erza321 said:


    There are no high level players in TTW, this game barely has a sense of MP community these guys are just some random dudes who decided to make a tournament. If MP doenst even have a proper ranking system then there are no top or bottom players, in my eyes if he picked Thorgrim against VP and they brought lot of ethereals he was lucky simple as that bc Thorgrim for everything else is not good enough.

    I've seen this notion of "nobody is truly proven worth anything yet because the system for testing them is underdeveloped". But my experience is that the more competitive elements rise to the top, even in crude early stage arenas.

    Sure, the game is still in its early days and we will likely see depth added into the learning curve are the game is explored (pending gameplay mechanic changes, new content, etc.). But TW is not a new series, and many of these players are coming to TWW as players with experience in parallel systems. Are you truly doubting that LegendofTotalWar and ThePrussianPrince are some of the better players? Do you truly think that current success results in TWW Competitive Matches is arbitrary and not indicative of any gap between players at different skill levels?
  • zaspacerzaspacer Posts: 47Registered Users
    Ugh, that was a posting disaster. Let me try that again...
    Just1more said:


    Are you guys really going to use that video as an argument? a game in wich the enemy team consisted pretty much entirely of THE one and only unit in the game thorgrim is good against? seriously?

    My core understanding of game tournaments comes from a Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Magic (mostly Eternal formats) tournament background (augmented with experience in or research done in other games). So bear with me. The meta in games typically boils down to what are the top Characters/Decks/Races/whatever and how they are played/built/etc (and how much they show up). And then what Characters/Decks/Races/Sideboards Counter those meta defining parameters.

    You emphasize VC being just one Race. But we're in a game where there are only 7 Races total. Where Vampire Counts is consistently showing up as a selected Race in TWW Touranments (and it showed up 2/6 times in that Finals). And we're talking about a format where currently players can at some points *see* what their opponent is playing as they select their Race/Build. So having Thorgrim as a Counter component to a Top Tier Race build isn't non-material.

    I'm not saying Thorgrim is a pan-meta defining figure or some sort of All-Star. But every component that contributes to a high level build (more meaningfully than components not taken) is not trivial.
    DerpCat said:


    There are no high level players in TTW, this game barely has a sense of MP community these guys are just some random dudes who decided to make a tournament. If MP doenst even have a proper ranking system then there are no top or bottom players, in my eyes if he picked Thorgrim against VP and they brought lot of ethereals he was lucky simple as that bc Thorgrim for everything else is not good enough.

    I've seen this notion of "nobody is truly proven worth anything yet because the system for testing them is underdeveloped". But my experience is that the more competitive elements rise to the top, even in crude early stage arenas.

    Sure, the game is still in its early days and we will likely see depth added into the learning curve are the game is explored (pending gameplay mechanic changes, new content, etc.). But TW is not a new series, and many of these players are coming to TWW as players with experience in parallel systems. Are you truly doubting that LegendofTotalWar and ThePrussianPrince are some of the better players? Do you truly think that current success results in TWW Competitive Matches is arbitrary and not indicative of any gap between players at different skill levels?
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    zaspacer said:

    Ugh, that was a posting disaster. Let me try that again...

    Just1more said:


    Are you guys really going to use that video as an argument? a game in wich the enemy team consisted pretty much entirely of THE one and only unit in the game thorgrim is good against? seriously?

    My core understanding of game tournaments comes from a Super Street Fighter II Turbo and Magic (mostly Eternal formats) tournament background (augmented with experience in or research done in other games). So bear with me. The meta in games typically boils down to what are the top Characters/Decks/Races/whatever and how they are played/built/etc (and how much they show up). And then what Characters/Decks/Races/Sideboards Counter those meta defining parameters.

    You emphasize VC being just one Race. But we're in a game where there are only 7 Races total. Where Vampire Counts is consistently showing up as a selected Race in TWW Touranments (and it showed up 2/6 times in that Finals). And we're talking about a format where currently players can at some points *see* what their opponent is playing as they select their Race/Build. So having Thorgrim as a Counter component to a Top Tier Race build isn't non-material.

    I'm not saying Thorgrim is a pan-meta defining figure or some sort of All-Star. But every component that contributes to a high level build (more meaningfully than components not taken) is not trivial.
    DerpCat said:


    There are no high level players in TTW, this game barely has a sense of MP community these guys are just some random dudes who decided to make a tournament. If MP doenst even have a proper ranking system then there are no top or bottom players, in my eyes if he picked Thorgrim against VP and they brought lot of ethereals he was lucky simple as that bc Thorgrim for everything else is not good enough.

    I've seen this notion of "nobody is truly proven worth anything yet because the system for testing them is underdeveloped". But my experience is that the more competitive elements rise to the top, even in crude early stage arenas.

    Sure, the game is still in its early days and we will likely see depth added into the learning curve are the game is explored (pending gameplay mechanic changes, new content, etc.). But TW is not a new series, and many of these players are coming to TWW as players with experience in parallel systems. Are you truly doubting that LegendofTotalWar and ThePrussianPrince are some of the better players? Do you truly think that current success results in TWW Competitive Matches is arbitrary and not indicative of any gap between players at different skill levels?
    Ok first this game has only 7 races NOW but there will be 18 total so Throgrim being a counter to some units of one race does not give him credit at all, specially considering no other faction has ethereal units. People are using the "he is a counter to ethereal" as a straw man argument its a deflection, every single LL or unit is some counter to something, off course he is good against ethereal, but for his costs he needs to be better at the rest, he costs over 2k and he can barely hold up against a 1,3k ork warboss, he is too fragile, his abilities dont make sense. Also im not doubting the players on the video, they might be great TTW players but they are not authorities in this matter i have also had games where i brought Thorgrim and he ended up being useful does that make him good? NO. Obsly he isnt 100% useless and from time to time you can have good games with him, but when the majority of players dont bring him in MP thats says something, it says that generally he isnt reliable and there are better choices. If a unit is only good in a very small niche (of lots of ethereals) and then he is widely considered useless for everything else i'd say the unit is not functioning properly.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 8,080Registered Users
    DerpCat said:

    Why would I lie about something so easy to test Yourself? Did you take all their abilities? You max out both characters, take no other units but the Lord, and run them at each other. For half the tests I waited 135 seconds for grimgors axe to be up.

    I ran half as thorgrim and half as grimgors to make sure abilities were used.

    Are you playing on normal difficult to avoid the AI getting Buffs? Did you test playing both sides or always controlling one side?

    Yes why would you lie if its so easily tested?
    Yes i took all their abilities, only lords were present, im on normal , i did test both sides, Thorgrim almost looses to a simple ork warboss and he gets shredded by grimgor. Eveyr single time and its not even a close battle.

    This
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • EgonicEgonic Posts: 156Registered Users
    Ehm...
    I don't know how you test things but in multiple battles Thorgrim outperforms Grimgor, the fight was extremely even while I was playing Grimgor.

    Only way I can make the fight between Thorgrim versus an Ork boss close is with potion abuse, which is cheating since it's clearly broken.
    With a Wyvern and potions I can kill Thorgrim without losing a single HP.

    If your character stands elevated you get a big advantage, doesn't even have to be much so that's a good thing to check.
  • PaminaPamina Senior Member Posts: 934Registered Users
    zaspacer said:

    Ugh, that was a posting disaster. Let me try that again...

    . Are you truly doubting that LegendofTotalWar and ThePrussianPrince are some of the better players?

    Yes i am, prince never play anymore; This is only youtubers tournament with weird rules, not proof of anything.
    "because you know nothing of multi-player and know nothing of tactics." Hero of Freedom (Too much GoT)

    I'm Panda_Warrior on steam.
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Posts: 2,058Registered Users
    Give Thorgrim the Ruby Ring of Ruin. Then he would be a fun character to use.
    |Sith|Lord|Galvanized Iron
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    Right, so I ran a quick test with fraps today. Was going to do a series of tests but you know what, not going to waste my time when you can so easily replicate the results for yourself. So the very first test I ran, making sure to wait for Grimgor's Axe to be up for the fight, Grimgor still loses to Thorgrim. You can see all the settings in case I'm doing something to throw the results of the test:

    DerpCat said:

    Ahahah so now the video shows that Thorgrim wins every single time which isnt even coherent to YOUR side of the story because he looses sometimes according to you

    So this leads me to believe you haven't really tested the fight. The fight between the two is actually rather close most of the time, which means it can come down to RNG. Thorgrim has high melee resist, so if Grimgor misses a few swings when his axe is active he's going to be at a disadvantage. If he lands them all he's probably going to win the fight. That's how closely they are matched.

    Additionally Thorgrim can stagger Grimgor, leading him to missing attacks. Which kind of plays into this next point you keep dismissing:
    DerpCat said:


    All i hear from you is Thorgrim doenst suck bc he doesnt fall on his ****

    It's not the only good thing about Thorgrim, as I've stated repeatedly. I'm not sure why you need to resort to gross generalizations, but I'm also thinking you may not have had much MP experience as Dwarves in ladder fights.

    It's not uncommon for a fight to come down to the wire, when there are only dregs of armies left and two beaten up lords. If your lord is on foot, and the enemy lord is mounted, you lose because of knockback.

    There is literally nothing the other two Dawi lords can do when the enemy character can just knock them around like a bowling pin until the Dawi lord is dead from repeated charges. Anyone who's played Dawi has suffered from this.

    Oh, and "Book of Grudges" stacks with "Master Rune of Groth One-Eye" for +16 Melee Attack on your army, and eventually Demons of Chaos will be a thing (re: him doing magic damage).

    Dwarves have some issues. Their LL are not one of them. That pretty much concludes my input into your thread as you're just getting churlish at this point and instead of a discussion it is turning into a bro-down.
    Post edited by TheRainbowDwarf on
  • Galvanized IronGalvanized Iron Senior Member Posts: 2,058Registered Users

    Oh, and "High King" stacks with "Master Rune of Groth One-Eye" for +16 Melee Attack on your army, and eventually Demons of Chaos will be a thing (re: him doing magic damage).

    Unfortunately High King only works if Thorgrim is wavering. So basically it is never active. Considering the flavor text I think this is by intention.
    |Sith|Lord|Galvanized Iron
  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Posts: 441Registered Users
    Oops I meant the book of grudges. Editing post. Yeah high king is crappy I mention that earlier.
  • DerpCatDerpCat Posts: 448Registered Users
    edited August 2016

    Right, so I ran a quick test with fraps today. Was going to do a series of tests but you know what, not going to waste my time when you can so easily replicate the results for yourself. So the very first test I ran, making sure to wait for Grimgor's Axe to be up for the fight, Grimgor still loses to Thorgrim. You can see all the settings in case I'm doing something to throw the results of the test:



    DerpCat said:

    Ahahah so now the video shows that Thorgrim wins every single time which isnt even coherent to YOUR side of the story because he looses sometimes according to you

    So this leads me to believe you haven't really tested the fight. The fight between the two is actually rather close most of the time, which means it can come down to RNG. Thorgrim has high melee resist, so if Grimgor misses a few swings when his axe is active he's going to be at a disadvantage. If he lands them all he's probably going to win the fight. That's how closely they are matched.

    Additionally Thorgrim can stagger Grimgor, leading him to missing attacks. Which kind of plays into this next point you keep dismissing:
    DerpCat said:


    All i hear from you is Thorgrim doenst suck bc he doesnt fall on his ****

    It's not the only good thing about Thorgrim, as I've stated repeatedly. I'm not sure why you need to resort to gross generalizations, but I'm also thinking you may not have had much MP experience as Dwarves in ladder fights.

    It's not uncommon for a fight to come down to the wire, when there are only dregs of armies left and two beaten up lords. If your lord is on foot, and the enemy lord is mounted, you lose because of knockback.

    There is literally nothing the other two Dawi lords can do when the enemy character can just knock them around like a bowling pin until the Dawi lord is dead from repeated charges. Anyone who's played Dawi has suffered from this.

    Oh, and "Book of Grudges" stacks with "Master Rune of Groth One-Eye" for +16 Melee Attack on your army, and eventually Demons of Chaos will be a thing (re: him doing magic damage).

    Dwarves have some issues. Their LL are not one of them. That pretty much concludes my input into your thread as you're just getting churlish at this point and instead of a discussion it is turning into a bro-down.
    I dont believe that video at all, considering myself and other two have supported that for them the fight makes thorgrim loose harshly. Again if "It's not uncommon for a fight to come down to the wire, when there are only dregs of armies left and two beaten up lords. If your lord is on foot, and the enemy lord is mounted, you lose because of knockback." If this ideal made up scenario makes up for the fact that he costs over 2k and almost looses to a ork warboss than there's nothing else to discuss, i believe most people disagree with you. Also "There is literally nothing the other two Dawi lords can do when the enemy character can just knock them around like a bowling pin until the Dawi lord is dead from repeated charges. Anyone who's played Dawi has suffered from this."CA has mentioned that lords have a limit of knockbacks they can suffer so they wont keep getting knocked about. Just the fact that the best thing you can say about Thorgrim is "he cant get knocked back" (dismissing the grimgor thing bc i find that very sketchy) makes me believe even further he sucks, also "Oh, and "Book of Grudges" stacks with "Master Rune of Groth One-Eye" for +16 Melee Attack on your army, and eventually Demons of Chaos will be a thing (re: him doing magic damage)." To me thats is not an argument, bc we are judging thorgrim for his individual worth, if you have to bring a runesmith into the equation it shows me he isnt very good. Also you have not commented the fact that his abilities dont make sense for what his meant to do
  • SkyfyreSkyfyre Posts: 28Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    Just to add an other vote:

    Against my expectations (!), Throgrim actually won all 4 battles against Grimgor I just ran:
    1. 2 Battles I played Thorgrim, one with no item on each lord, one with all the items
    2. 2 battles I played Grimgro, again one with no item on each lord, one with all the items
    This was done on normal difficulty, large unit size (obviously with no mods).

    Then I retested just one battle on small unit size:
    Grimgor just absolutely massacred Thorgrim using the axe. I think the reason for this is clear: while on larger unit sizes, i.e. with more HP, Grimgors ability is only active for a tiny fraction of the fight, it easily lasts for the entirety of the very short low-HP fight on smaller unit sizes.

    So who's winning is actually a question of unit size, which just shows once again what a broken mechanic that is.

    In other news: you were both right in a sense, so get your panties in order and start acting like grown ups. :P
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,999Registered Users
    erza321 said:

    Doesn't the Throne of Power itself give Thorgrim a bonus magic save on TT, not to mention the Axe of Grimnir being a very powerful weapon on TT being able to wound anything on a 2+ regardless of toughness.

    Not to mention all Dwarf Lords are a bit lackluster in the game at the moment, Ungrim Ironfist cannot kill a Gorebull in single combat (or even catch) and all Dwarfs Lords lack the benefit of being able to be upgraded with Runes like in the TT.

    That's cuz Gorebulls are insanely OP.

  • GeniusWWEGeniusWWE Posts: 184Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    I am one of the many players that believe dwarves are boring. Yeah they are really boring if you keep using ungrim thinking he is somekind of a lord killer when he has a hard time reaching other lords most of the time. But when I tried Thorgim....oh boy how fast have I became a fan boy of dwarves.

    I think people are not making sense here, they rage about how bad thorgrim is when he is really a powerful support lord that can fight. If you pair him up with a rune smith and protect him with a thane, your units becomes really powerful in combat, every unit with 60m and 45m gets immune to psychology and 16 atk and +12 leadship (8 atk from thor, 8 atk from runesmith, 8 leadership from runesmith, 4 leadership from thor.)

    The high king ability works constantly, you don't have to wait for Thorgirms leadership to go down. Go read and check the stats again if you don't believe me. What sucks and sometimes not so sucky is the book of grudges... it only works after thorgim dies. And if your units are within 45m of the book and thorgrim carcass, they get +8 melee attack.

    Thorgrim unlike ungrim, makes everything withing 45 to 60 m powerful, while ungrim is just a strong melee lord that is unbreakable. Who would I take in a game if I want to win with my army? The answer is simple. Thorgim Hands down.

    In the past I too was mislead by Thorgrim whiners claiming that he sucks until I tried using him recently. I play tested him in QB instead of lobby games so I can test him against good players or simply cheesy build and I am very impressed by the result.

    I am not sorry to say that the Thorgrim whiners are just whiners. Haters got to hate and no amount of reasoning or evidence is going to change their mind.
  • eQsassyljayeQsassyljay Posts: 124Registered Users
    GeniusWWE said:


    The high king ability works constantly, you don't have to wait for Thorgirms leadership to go down. Go read and check the stats again if you don't believe me. What sucks and sometimes not so sucky is the book of grudges... it only works after thorgim dies. And if your units are within 45m of the book and thorgrim carcass, they get +8 melee attack.
    .

    EHHHH??!?!? I think you need to read the tool tips again... The book is constant says so in the tooltips has nothing to do with when he dies.. you can check in game dont take high king ability just book of grudges when the battle starts after deployment you will get +8 from it, do it the other way round and you will get nothing from high king ability, the tooltip for high king says the ability is disabled when leadership is high but basically it only works when he is wavering which is useless really.



  • GeniusWWEGeniusWWE Posts: 184Registered Users
    I think that's the book you are talking about. I was reading the book of grudges over and over again and it says what you said about the high king ability. At first I was like you, thinking the same thing. Then when I start the game and I check the stats of the other units around Thorgim, They all get the +4 leadership and + 8 attack. when he dies, if you are still within 45m of his body, you will still have +8 attack from the book. That's why he didn't get a +16 for the melee attack. Only +8 from High King when he lives, and +8 from the book after he dies.

    Just go try it, check the stats of your units, play around with it. You will see what I mean.
  • GeniusWWEGeniusWWE Posts: 184Registered Users

    GeniusWWE said:


    The high king ability works constantly, you don't have to wait for Thorgirms leadership to go down. Go read and check the stats again if you don't believe me. What sucks and sometimes not so sucky is the book of grudges... it only works after thorgim dies. And if your units are within 45m of the book and thorgrim carcass, they get +8 melee attack.
    .

    EHHHH??!?!? I think you need to read the tool tips again... The book is constant says so in the tooltips has nothing to do with when he dies.. you can check in game dont take high king ability just book of grudges when the battle starts after deployment you will get +8 from it, do it the other way round and you will get nothing from high king ability, the tooltip for high king says the ability is disabled when leadership is high but basically it only works when he is wavering which is useless really.



    yeh your are right, I misread the tool tip. But Thorgims extra book of grudges really made quite a difference in my games where I see even dwarf greatweapons fight like elites units. I had more success so far with thorgrim with one runes smith and one thane than Ungrim with 2 runesmith.
  • Just1moreJust1more Posts: 103Registered Users
    ok so I'm a little tired of people saying his ablities are ok, so im gonna make a big-ish post to compare some stuff.

    Ok, time to compare Thorgrims abilities and items to other heroes/ lords that have similar ones, sounds fair? lets see how it goes.

    High King buff, and thorgrims only unique ability (Dwarfs have like no abilities for some reason): http://puu.sh/qFGha/c7590942d6.jpg this is it, so lets compare it to some others, and im going to go straight to the worst offender, http://puu.sh/qFEOj/159429824f.jpg ''Beloved Son of Bretonnia, it's an upgrade. thats it, a pure upgrade in both radius AND price. Why? Secondly, look at the ammount of abilities Bretonnia gets to chose from.

    Wich brings me to VC, no abilities that are exactly the same the thing that comes closest is their healing abilites, wich trigger while casting/in combat while different in use one thing keeps coming back, they are a lot cheaper and mostly more useful
    Empire doesnt have any ability thats similar, but they did steal this from the Dwarfs http://puu.sh/qFF5Q/db1a3bee85.jpg (hold the line) just kidding tho, but it sounds like an ability that would help Dwarfs.

    In conclusion to high king. It's overpriced and lackluster, it fails to compare to other abilities. it's Specially overpriced

    Lets go to his item, Book of grudges. this is maybe the worst one imo. Here it is: http://puu.sh/qFFdw/60caebd52f.jpg lets begin by what makes it okay-ish and not good. The price, it's and insane price (also bad range). And to prove this ill compare it to the 2 worst offenders.

    Runesmith: http://puu.sh/qFFcI/b788d0fc69.jpg look at that, once again Thorgrim has an item wich another hero/lord has except they have a pure upgrade, its cheaper, longer range, more stats. What?

    Worst offender number 2: http://puu.sh/qFGaq/0ab0c61072.jpg ..................... really? really? it's pretty much the same effect, same range, but compare those prices.( I unchecked all spells, abilities and items on him and only equipped the dragon, doing that leaves the price at 79 gold). what? yes it's true you need the zombie dragon for it. but it already brings so many benefits with it, and on top of that you can fly above enemies and debuff them better than thorgrim can buff?

    Book of grudges is overrated for the price, peoples only argument for why it's good is because you can stack it with runesmith's already superior buff. Wich is silly, an abilty should be good on it's own. Again it doesnt measure up to other items/abilities in the game I haven't even bothered comparing to other items/abilities that are very different, but they are mostly ALL cheaper, and much more money efficient


    And lastly pure stats, Thorgrim doesnt have the worst stats, he might win some 1v1 with cheaper lords but:
    He is insanely vurnerable to sniping, and i dont mean missiles per se, but flying/mounted/fast lords or heroes, he has no charge defence, a flying lord will ANNIHILATE him completely.

    Second majot point about his stats, he counts as a large unit, and the only benefit it brings is that he doesnt fall on his ass, wich is useless against infantry, this makes thorgrim extremely vurnerable to many anti large units, since he will take too much dmg to make it worth the engagement, and now try counting how many armies bring spearmen/similar in big quantities, it's a lot.

    But he has a upside! yup, he has one benefit, against one faction!, and within that faction 2 units! http://puu.sh/qFHB6/c115399f60.jpg (he is also tanky obv, but it's kinda negated when he has no charge defense, and counts as large. he melts)
  • Karadar_UKKaradar_UK Posts: 191Registered Users
    Every dwarf should have charge defence against large since everyone is bigger than them so its kinda a must really.
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Posts: 986Registered Users

    Every dwarf should have charge defence against large since everyone is bigger than them so its kinda a must really.

    Every Dwarf unit that has a shield (except Ungrim) has charge defense against large, the main issue is there's nothing to stop a large unit from smashing straight through the unit because of the disruption the charge causes.

    Giving the Dwarfs a mass increase to be the same as cavalry or give Dwarfs a very powerful shieldwall ability (if other faction get shieldwall, the Dwarfs should have more bonuses).

    Also the thing that could solve most of the balancing issues for Dwarfs isn't in the game yet, because most of the Runes that could be used for Lord/Heroes is locked are locked in the Runesmiths skill tree as passive buffs and there are no artillery Runes yet.
  • DeavexDeavex Posts: 6Registered Users
    edited August 2016
    What i dont get is you half to take him on his throne of power which makes him mounted and large but he doesn't do ap everybody else mounted does ap
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    Most regular cav heroes / lords don't have AP, only orc warboss on boar.
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • RiggsenRiggsen Member Posts: 2,598Registered Users
    I think fixing high king so it works when Thorgrim has lost maybe 1/4 of his HP, and upping his melee defense even higher would make him solid. I'm in the minority group that thinks Thorgrim isn't terrible though :smile:
    "CA WHY U NU UNPOOP GAME" (Dank TW meme of 2011)
  • DeavexDeavex Posts: 6Registered Users
    i really like him i just wish he did ap dmg bc he is mounted
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