Warrior of Chaos...Doesn't DESERVE THIS

mothyreladygne

A wailing from this humble mortal, to raise CA's sense of urgency for Chaos underwhelming performance

Its been three patches we waited patiently for CA to put chaos in their proper place

But it seem that CA only cares for their golden boy AKA the empire (and perhaps the Brettonia), despite of the wailing they didn't want to make these factions performance more sensible, But Instead being ignorant to Chaos , as if Chaos was and is the Ugly Duckling for all faction

I didn't really care about asymmetrical balance of race, but by putting Chaos at the bottom end,as the loser race, is a sacrilege


Allow me to elaborate my current judgement on Chaos extremely poor Performance

"Is there one single greater threat to civilization than these savages? Physically powerful, armed and armoured with both steel and sorcery, filled with evil intent. Are they even Human? All the evidence is that they are not; rather, these creatures are spontaneously generated deep within the Pits of Chaos in the Icy Wastes north of Norsca, born from the cosmic flux of creation that is primal Chaos..."
—Albrecht Kinear, Professor Emeritus at the University of Nuln




LEGENDARY LORDS

1. Kholek Suneater
Despite of the intimidating appearance equipped with heavy armor, this oversized crybaby only have 30 armor (which is one of the worst) and 7600 HP(at Ultra, also very low for a big creature like him), easily dispatched by a group of flying ponies, birdies, chickens, grailknights. For supposed to be the strongest single land unit, this crybaby can't even take a giant spidies 1 vs 1
I pity his performance to the extend that I create a custom mod to bring him to the proper place

2. Archaon the Ever-NOT-chosen
Never play him , never touch him, because he is not interesting, not the centerpiece of the army with a dissapointing mount that makes him like a regular chaos knight...unless CA released the age of Sigmar 3 headed Dorkhar, than I play him
But anyway, I can't give him proper judgement, but almost all Chaos Player review said that he sucks.

3. Princess Sigvald the Not so Magnificent
Thanks for his antics, At least he is more entertaining than Archaon, but also really a lackluster, even fabulous king can get his regen privilege at cheaper price and a better performance

4. Sarthorael the Everwatcher
Overpriced oversized parrot, equipped with the worst lore of spell existed within CA's warhammer universe, and no heroic abilities?


LORDS

1. Chaos Lord
At least he got potion???

2. Chaos Sorcerer Lords
Your standard magician, at least they are a bit better that poor H Kemler and Baltz thanks to Chaos Dragon and Manticores


HEROES

3. Exalted Hero
Read the flying Mounts Part

4. Sorcerer
Your Standard Magician, best Chaos Unit So far, because they are the only one sensible in cost /value compared to other faction

So by majority they are actually ok...not that awesome compared to the likes of Strigoi Ghoul King, but for their mounts, the inferiority is too high



FLYING MOUNTS

1. Chaos Dragon (Also applies to zombie dragon, but zombie dragon is a bit better)
Yes...you better run, from your miserable life caused by ever-knowing the existence of this...
undisputed, the worst flying unit ever existed within TTWar Universe, remembering their introduction video CA is very good at making jokes...I admitted it.
It is a flying sheep
with bad animation, useless fire attack
It loses to everything:
Fabulous Flying Ponies, Giant Flying Chickens, Fabulous Giant Flying Chicken, Green Giant Flying Chickens, All kinds of Cavalry, even Manticores (The second worst flying unit existed)
(Untested) some people say that even a group pf swordmen can bring it down
This is a sacrilegy, since when griffins are the apex sky predator, while dragon are forced to eat their faeces.
The only way I can play with this...is by creating a custom mod to bring it to the proper place


2. Manticores
This also applies to the one mounted by chaos lords, exalted heroes
Honestly aesthetically wise this is the coolest, most badass looking unit in the entire game, it has cool animation too, except the WALKINNG ANIMATION which makes the rider looks on a hangover.
Performance wise, it is the second worst flying unit in the entire TTwar universe
A group of ponies is enough to bring it down
It also loses to the amber wizard's green giant flying chickens, giant flying chicken, fabulous giant flying chicken
They are soo badass in looks, but very lackluster in performance
I think they should be at least on par with giant chickens and atleast include the poison attack which existed at the campaign
this is the reason why I learned to mod TTWAR at the first place, to bring the to proper place


Please, Chaos is known to be outnumbered, at least give us a chance at air combat


CAVALRIES

1. Chaos Knight
Pre patched, they are...okay, perhaps too expensive and please don't compare them to chickens OP demi, they are worthless
(But because at that time demichickens are absurdly OP....what are the devs thinking, chickens aren't supposed to be that powerful in the tabletop as I remembered)
Chaos knights USED to be the SECOND strongest (not best) cavalry, it can destroys any cavalries in fair combat excluding Chickens, the drawback are maneuverability and price (ofcourse) but atleast they used to have their purpose.
But Devs started to patched grail-knights and conjured blood knights to the already decent Edward Cullen and Friends.
so after three patches, these useless ponies still retained their absurdly inflated price, but held the title as the worst high .tier Cavalry existed within
They are outnumbered, weaker, slower, expensive


2.Marauder Horsemen
If Chaos ponies nominated as the worst high tier cavalry, them this one held the title of the worst cavalry ever existed in the universe, 50 cost reduction doesn't change a thing, because no on will ever use them


INFANTRIES

1. Chosen
They used to be worthless, but since CA patched them, they are one of the most cost effective unit (IN ENTIRE CHAOS ROSTER, so it still bad), for supposed to be the ultimate incarnaion of foot soldier, they are supposed to perform like Ebola, but instead they barely win against empire great sword (I recall that I did loss a regular chosen with empire great swords in fair combat)
But the reality
Spidies, giants and aggro-ed demichickens also wreck thembadly (even the halberd Chosen Version)

2. Chaos Warriors
The lore said that a chaos warrior is so powerful that when one of them dies, they will leave pile of corpses around him as testament of his/her power. (warhammer fantasy wikia)
But I think, it is pile of ant's corpses (or germs, bacteria, whatever you called it) that accidentaly trampeled by these clads
Its like something missing from them (they are really powerful at tabletop, one of the best infantry cost performance wise)
I think the Chaos Warriors in TTW forgot to eat Khorne Flakes for their breakfast
For their price, and their role as the ultimate infantry to cover chaos lackluster units, they barely stood a chance against high tier infantry, just try to use them against empire great swords and witness the slaughter

[To Be Continued]

Seswatha#7633

Liked because of Fabulous Flying Ponies(c) and Green Giant Flying Chickens(c).

busa27

Hahahahahahaha 100% agree. looks like you thing the same than me. Chaos need desperate help with infranty and flying units.....

"Archaon the Ever-NOT-chosen" xDDD

vindicarex

Despite the last few patches slightly reducing chaos unit's costs, I still feel Chaos has some of the weakest armies for one of the most 1-dimensional armies (no ranged units) - between the efficiency of heroes + potions and flying heroes, it can be difficult to effectively engage enemy armies while trying to deal with superior cav units and ranged units.

TheRainbowDwarf

You take back what you said about Sigvald. YOU TAKE THAT BACK. Your awful analysis of him does not take into account his amazing hair and broad shoulders and oh so sassy hip sway. Perhaps you would get more out of him if you played some Wham or LMFAO songs while using him in battle.

More seriously, his ability needs to be recosted. A dude on foot should not pay more for regenerate than a dude who can fly, even if he has magical armor that never gets dirty.

Groudon59

i still remember when the chicken used to be unplayable he was such a badass and did so much damage, now you can play him they changed him to this overpriced weak-ass lord of change who can't even solo a hero who costs half his price... plus they get health pots, please make lord of change more armor piercing such a joke to the deamons of chaos.

Schepel#1217

OP, half of what you claim is - as you say, untested by *you*. Might I suggest you actually test rather than amuse everybody with your (less than) funny name changes?

mothyreladygne

Schepel said:

OP, half of what you claim is - as you say, untested by *you*. Might I suggest you actually test rather than amuse everybody with your (less than) funny name changes?

Half?? no no, the only unit I havent test is:
1. Archaon...Because he is uninteresting
2. Chaos Dragon vs a group a swordman, but I think testing with flying ponies will enough to prove its inferiority

KhorneFlakes

i mean don't worry ca is listening have trust in ato,u want kholek buffed..??? here you go patch 4 :
Kholek the mighty suneater
Huge price decrease:-
-50g
XD

Combat_Wombat

Hahahahahahahah Trust in Ato he says. All I've seen from Ato is him defending Chaos's horrible position as something other than horrible. I'll continue to play Chaos because they are evil and cool but at this point I have absolutely no hope in them ever getting the balance they deserve. Somehow Ato expects us to believe the 4% increase in Chaos winning has anything at all to do with that sad price decrease to 2 units. Obviously can't have anything to do with people trying out new builds and realizing quickly most new units aren't worth bringing anyway. Now it's virtually impossible for Chaos to win against Empire or VC, not like we were ever expected to win against them pre-patch to begin with.

salsicha

If anything, the extra wins for Chaos are because of the healing nerf.

Combat_Wombat

It's not a significant statistic so soon after the patch. Give it time and I'm sure Chaos's win/lose ratio will plummet down even lower than it was previously. Not a lot can be done against a bunch of Mortis engines and a large army of chump units turned immortal. New cavalry units and improved versions of normal units for Empire is just another step towards complete Empire domination.

KhorneFlakes

Combat_Wombat said:

Hahahahahahahah Trust in Ato he says. All I've seen from Ato is him defending Chaos's horrible position as something other than horrible. I'll continue to play Chaos because they are evil and cool but at this point I have absolutely no hope in them ever getting the balance they deserve. Somehow Ato expects us to believe the 4% increase in Chaos winning has anything at all to do with that sad price decrease to 2 units. Obviously can't have anything to do with people trying out new builds and realizing quickly most new units aren't worth bringing anyway. Now it's virtually impossible for Chaos to win against Empire or VC, not like we were ever expected to win against them pre-patch to begin with.

mate your sarcasm detection meter is broken


and yes chaos win ratio will go down even further as missiles as foot skirmishers are buffed too.

TheRainbowDwarf

Far more than two units had price decreases. Have you tried chaos since the patch?

Combat_Wombat said:

. Somehow Ato expects us to believe the 4% increase in Chaos winning has anything at all to do with that sad price decrease to 2 units.

busa27

Chaos Knights price decreased was a pretty good change. And lore of fire being better has helpped a lot too. I find Chaos in better position without any doubt.

Also Beastmen nerfs have been good for Chaos because it's on more faction able to win now.

Seswatha#7633

Tbh I think heal cap for potions and sniping nerf helped factions with limited access to these more than anything else.

Previously playing vs potions without having them was like playing at 3k gold disadvantage.

cool_lad#3330

The problem really is that any buffs to Chaos now would be to the detriment of the SP. This game really needs separate stats and costs for MP.

TheShiroOfDalton

cool_lad said:

The problem really is that any buffs to Chaos now would be to the detriment of the SP. This game really needs separate stats and costs for MP.

It already has seperate costs and separate stats would be a waste of time considering how small the MP portion of the playerbase really is.

Karak_Spoon

Do you think things would change if CA added more Chosen varient with special abilities and powers, such as:

• The Chosen of Khorne
  
• The Chosen of Nurgle
  
• The Chosen of Tzeech
  
• The Chosen of Slannesh
  

Short of adding the diffent Deamons of 4 Chaos gods or the 2 missing units (the Chimera and Chaos Ogres), this is the only way the Chaos roster is going expanded further then it already is.

Berlioz

erza321 said:

Do you think things would change if CA added more Chosen varient with special abilities and powers, such as:

• The Chosen of Khorne
  
• The Chosen of Nurgle
  
• The Chosen of Tzeech
  
• The Chosen of Slannesh
  

Short of adding the diffent Deamons of 4 Chaos gods or the 2 missing units (the Chimera and Chaos Ogres), this is the only way the Chaos roster is going expanded further then it already is.

personally no...if they will add more units to chaos they will surely cost too much to bring them

Manticore: 1800(because it flys you know)

Chaos ogres:2200 ( because i think they would be better they cannot cost the same as the dragon ogres)

Chaos chosen of "SELECT YOUR GOD" : 1775 ( you know...they re better than chosen)

just saying but the already limited roster only allow you to deploy a small size army (at least if you don t bring a bunch of mighty marauders that flee after one minute of battle)and those "new units" would have to cost more then the already existing ones since they re better

Chaos fight in inferior numbers ( like dwarfs) compared to other races they get surrounded easily and their leadership is too low to withstand this and since you have far less troops than your opponent he can dispatch some of his units that are not engaged to pursue your fleeing men,they ll never come back this way

Marauder:58 leadership

Terror from an X unit: -10 leadership

you have then to worry abot:

-FEAR

-BACK CHARGES

-DAMAGE SUSTAINED

-ALLIED TROOPS ROUTING ( your marauder will flee and give negative morale)

-UNDER FIRE FROM ARTILLERY/SHOOTED AT... ( your hellcannon can decrease leadership even if the bullet don t hit your units)

EDIT:forgot to mention some spells/ability that affect leadership,like bloady roar

and there you are,you have loosed the game because the mighty chaos army,the ones who fight to please the gods and would rather die than escape, has routed , CLOSE DEFEAT

HSK#4606

lol very funny post and accurate.

HSK#4606

seriously why they just dont copy balance from TT?

HSK#4606

erza321 said:

Do you think things would change if CA added more Chosen varient with special abilities and powers, such as:

• The Chosen of Khorne
  
• The Chosen of Nurgle
  
• The Chosen of Tzeech
  
• The Chosen of Slannesh
  

Short of adding the diffent Deamons of 4 Chaos gods or the 2 missing units (the Chimera and Chaos Ogres), this is the only way the Chaos roster is going expanded further then it already is.

banners should be availiable to units, not heroes. this issue must be fixed too.

Gaussia

Berlioz said:

Chaos ogres:2200 ( because i think they would be better they cannot cost the same as the dragon ogres)

That's just bizare. Chaos Ogres are far behind Dragon Ogres, they are about on the same level as a standard unit of Ogre Bulls. In my Chaos books they are below both Minotaurs and Trolls.

Berlioz

Gaussia said:

Berlioz said:

Chaos ogres:2200 ( because i think they would be better they cannot cost the same as the dragon ogres)

That's just bizare. Chaos Ogres are far behind Dragon Ogres, they are about on the same level as a standard unit of Ogre Bulls. In my Chaos books they are below both Minotaurs and Trolls.

I don t know anything of warhammer TT , that was just a guess based on the fact that the already in game Dragon ogres cost so much

Combat_Wombat

Well Chaos is a faction of expensive underperforming units. Seems about right the next new unit would be stupidly expensive and worse than trolls.

Karak_Spoon

DandalusXVII said:

seriously why they just dont copy balance from TT?

It's a bit hard to balance stuff from turn based on a TT game that heavily involves dice and after converting to a RTS pc game where you don't have to roll dice for almost every action.

Gaussia

Berlioz said:

Gaussia said:

Berlioz said:

Chaos ogres:2200 ( because i think they would be better they cannot cost the same as the dragon ogres)

That's just bizare. Chaos Ogres are far behind Dragon Ogres, they are about on the same level as a standard unit of Ogre Bulls. In my Chaos books they are below both Minotaurs and Trolls.

I don t know anything of warhammer TT , that was just a guess based on the fact that the already in game Dragon ogres cost so much

No probs then. The "Chaos" Gores are basically standard Ogres (before Ogres became there own faction they were present in the Chaos Roster) and are probable the most standard monster infantry unit.

I'd say you other two estimates are a bit to high as well. The Manticore around 1600 and the Choosen with marks slightly better to the same as the current choosen.
(The "marked choosen should probably come with modified stats as well as some additional ability were the "undivided" ones are an intermediate. E.g. Nurgle Choosen have lower speed than the undivided, which have lower than the Slanesh ones)

Also: Add that warshrine already! It be a cool support unit to an otherwise very melee oriented roster.

Berlioz

Good to know.. i ve always wanted to try the TT game,but i think it requires too much time,and i really have not that much...At the moment the only warhammer's game i ve played is "Warhammer mark of chaos" and its expansion.. i loved those games but there were much worse balance issue than here (Eg.Chaos knights spam FTW) and people soon left the game..

However, sometimes i just scream EUREKA and try some new sh%%% with chaos so i ve made this army,i was playing against Vc

1 Chaos lord on dragon + 2 healing potions

1 exaltd hero on manticore( these two to try and snipe the lord/heroes/ mortis engine/corpse cart)

3 chaos marauders (sheilded)

1 Chaos warriors

1 Chaos warriors with great weapons

1 forsaken

2 Dragon ogres (to deal with cav)

1 Chaos spawn

i wanted to bring the hellcannon but since i thought he would have rushed i didn t..

well my cavs engagement went well , his blood knights didn t have a chance against my DO, my main line was holding but then all of a sudden leadership went down and they all fled the battle..

my opponent was using vlad with a necromancer and a mortis engine with some of those new units of renown,i don t remember the names but one was a grave guard and the other was a wolf unit..

i don t want to be lame but.. even if i know i m not a pro player, even if i ve won the cav engagement,there was little i can do against his blobbed infantry with vlad,the necromancer and his mortis engine well protected inside of it..i ve saved the replay and i wanted to upload it here in the balance section just to DEV to see what i mean by TOO LOW LEADERSHIP, but for some reason i m unable to upload the file here..

salsicha

That "blob" is called the "Deathstar." If you didn't kill the Mortis Engine right away then you almost certainly lost because of it. What happened to you wasn't necessarily a balance issue. Those units inside the blob are meant to defeat you with damage aura, regen, and terror. Chaos has the steepest learning curve and will give you the most grief. If you want to play the game with a gentle learning curve then play as Empire.

Berlioz

i usually play with dwarfs, so yeah i m not that good with chaos, but what should i do in that kind of situation ? his mortis engine was in the middle of the deathstar(funny because i thought i would never see it again),my exalted hero fled in the middle of the battle leaving my flying lord as the only option for an air charge on his mortis engine but he was stopped by his infantry,leaving my opponent enough time to reposition his Mortis engine.

As i ve said i m not a pro player, i think i can deal with this with dwarfs but with chaos? i m always opened to any kind of tips