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Fixing the uselesness of the Dwarves and the OP nature of VC

MridonkulusMridonkulus Registered Users Posts: 28




This video from HoC says it all.V C are still arguably the most OP faction in the game.

Empire might be versatile, they don't have OP Horrors, Regeneration spam, Cheese of Nagash, and arguably the best melee centric roster in the game.
I feel like people defend VC because of singleplayer, which is fine. But they still broken in multiplayer and thus need to be changed there.
I'd rather not be forced to bring Empire every time just to deal with OP Magic Units and Co.

As for the dwarves, they NEED at the least more mass in their units, and maybe the change to make Slayers more viable to deal with enemy cav and monsters. This is a perfect example of CA needing to develop MP separate from SP
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Comments

  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    edited September 2016
    I completely agree, CA making tiny incremental changes is doing nothing and its rage inducing
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,712
    edited September 2016
    VC are actually one of the better MUs for dwarves... Both GS and Empire are much more difficult to deal with. That been said they are at disadvantage in all MUs as it stands (maybe vs Chaos it's about even). But they are not as bad as some people make it seem (i.e. it's still possible to win with them, whereas reading some people's posts it's a crushing defeat every game no matter what you do)

    Also, Cheese of Nagash? what patch are you playing?
    Post edited by MadDemiurg on

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    Dwarves do not need more mass. Charge resist would be better.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    More mass and more charge resist. They should have both and great weapons should be anti-large.
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    No. Mass makes them the only race vulnerable to vortexes. Remove some of their mass, but give them more charge resist with hold the line and other similar abilities.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    Arent they resistant to magic in the first place? Or just change Vortex spell
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827

    VC are actually one of the better MUs for dwarves... Both GS and Empire are much more difficult to deal with. That been said they are at disadvantage in all MUs as it stands (maybe vs Chaos it's about even). But they are not as bad as some people make it seem (i.e. it's still possible to win with them, whereas reading some people's posts it's a crushing defeat every game no matter what you do)

    Also, Cheese of Nagash? what patch are you playing?

    okay then big guy, what should they have done instead against VC.
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    Wing Zero said:

    Arent they resistant to magic in the first place? Or just change Vortex spell

    Vortex spells do more damage to heavy units because units flying around take less damage.
    Dwarves are already super heavy for infantry. They aren't bumped as much. And so take full vortex damage, which is why winds of death is so efficient on them.

    THeir resistance to magic is weak compared to the damage dealt./
  • DirtyDexterDirtyDexter Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3
    edited September 2016
    I was thinking given their lack of spells for sniping and their grudge-holding, nearly fearless nature, it would be good to have it so that if a dwarf general dies, the army gets a bonus to moral, rather than it lowering. To show their outrage and their vengeful nature.

    Also, since they're master engineers, I figure their ranged units should have a small bonus to range than other faction ranged units of the same class.

    And lastly, perhaps Hammerers should have anti-cav, in that a stout dwarf with a large hammer would be able fell a horse or maim the legs of a giant.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,712
    edited September 2016
    Wing Zero said:

    VC are actually one of the better MUs for dwarves... Both GS and Empire are much more difficult to deal with. That been said they are at disadvantage in all MUs as it stands (maybe vs Chaos it's about even). But they are not as bad as some people make it seem (i.e. it's still possible to win with them, whereas reading some people's posts it's a crushing defeat every game no matter what you do)

    Also, Cheese of Nagash? what patch are you playing?

    okay then big guy, what should they have done instead against VC.
    Didn't watch the whole thing, just the end where I could see the armies and a few moments of the battle to get the idea.

    -Bring Ungrim or Thorgrim with Book of Grudges, both are better choices.
    -Don't spam longbeards, 1-2 max for encourage, they are not cost effective. Bring warriors or miners instead. Miners are actually a pretty good chaff now, esp with +16 attack from thhorgrim and runesmith. Use saved funds to purchase some actual heavy hitters.
    -Bring runesmith instead of thanes, their buffs are crucial and rune of wrath and ruin is needed to kill cav
    -Bring more high damage units like slayers and/or hammerers and use them to cut down the VC units that get to your ranged fast and destroy horrors/GG later when they are weakened by your chaff
    -Bring quarellers instead of thunderers, thunderers couln't shoot even when they were not blocked cause they can't shoot over their own units. Only good vs tall/air targets or on a hill. They coulnd't shoot much this game even when they weren't locked in combat so a waste pretty much
    -That been said maybe park on that nice hill just behind in which case thunderers would be ok and VC would have to fight uphill with a huge disadvantage
    -Not sold on flamecannon for 1250 still. It's post battle kills seem to confirm this.

    Now you're gonna find a find a reason why this won't work of course, but tbh I don't want to spend time arguing on this. But vs VC dwarves have the advantage of actually being able to play defensively and VC don't have great anti inf cav. Other races can bring arty to make dwarves much less comfortable playing defensively and mess them up with cost effective cav cycle charges.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited September 2016
    Also charging into cavalry does not stop them worth a damn. You have to be set and in 3 to 4 ranks and then you can bounce that enemy cavalry.

    This forces you into a tighter formation of course, but if you don't protect your missile units don't bother bringing them.

    What is sad however is even parking a unit directly on your war machine crew doesn't protect them much. Slayers were a terrible choice however, regular warriors are better for that and they have a tighter formation.

    Irondrakes might help as they do actually demolish Sternmen but even bats demolish them while normal missile troops actually can fight them off, given time.

    Dunno how to deal with mortis engines. Artillery doesn't last and it's very difficult to keep missile units shooting.

    In the end, be a jerk. Corner and back line camp against VC. If they bring such a powerful faction against dwarves they deserve it.
  • josh34583josh34583 Registered Users Posts: 135
    Wing Zero said:

    More mass and more charge resist. They should have both and great weapons should be anti-large.

    They should add Great Weapon slayers, they were a unit on table top so it would be lore friendly.
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,712
    edited September 2016
    @TheRainbowDwarf

    Slayers had 160 kills on the end battle screen actually, they are the only unit that did well. I would even bring 2 maybe. But yeah, they are not a good choice to intercept cav charge by any standards.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • TheRainbowDwarfTheRainbowDwarf Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited September 2016

    @TheRainbowDwarf

    Slayers had 160 kills on the end battle screen actually, they are actually the only unit that did well. I would even bring 2 maybe. But yeah, they are not a good choice to intercept cav charge by any standards.

    Fighting zombies and bats so unless they chevron'd from XP the raw kill count ain't that indicative. At least, I believe it was slayers he parked on his arty (watched on my pad not PC so small screen). They fought bats and summoned zombies, and to be blunt warriors would be far better due to superior armor and half the cost.

    I would for sure bring slayers just not use them like he did. They wreck cavalry if they can counter charge them after another unit takes the charge.

    Oh and miners throwing charges into his own units doesn't help. Never put them on fire at will when placing them like that (I'm sure you know that, I'm just saying for everyone else).
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    The Dwarfs don't need more mass, if anymore mass is added to the Dwarfs AOE spells such as the Foot of Gork will nuke them because they'll have no way to mitigate the damage by being knocked over.

    High mass units that don't have charge defense bonus (such as Giants and chariot mounted Lord) will get slaughtered by the charge bonus, because again they have no way to mitigate the damage and take evey hit from the bonus damage.

    Five things could be changed or added to improve the Dwarfs:
    1. Giving the Dwarfs a way to dispel magic, so they aren't so vunreble to AOE damage and debuffs
    2. Giving the Dwarfs an ability similar to the Empires newly buffed Hold the Line ability that only works for shielded units
    3. Giving the Dwarfs equal range artillery to the Empire, with the ability to buff them with Runes
    4. Added an expanded Rune system where artillery, Lords and Heroes can be buffed with Runes
    5. Adding a new unit of Slayers or changing the current Slayers so they have armour piercing damage (Slayers currently struggle with heavily armoured large unit)
  • DerpCatDerpCat Registered Users Posts: 448
    Dwarfs need runes, better art (tough runes could do that), and better chrage defense i shouldnt see bracing irobrakers flying through the air...
  • Al_Ka_PwnAl_Ka_Pwn Member Registered Users Posts: 241
    Gyro copters and artillery in general need some massive buffs.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,900
    Even buffing artillery probably wont help the dwarfs. Artillery just isnt cost effective enough in MP and gets shutdown so easily. Their current roster is just riddled with overpriced infantry and gyro units. Either buff the units or continue the price drops on them.
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    To fix the dwarves:
    - Make hammerers anti-large so the faction gets access to anti-large AP weapons
    - Make irodrakes more efficient (More men in the unit or more damage) so they can deal with blobs
    - Make irondrakes with trollhammers more accurate and anti-large so they can be used against cavalry and monstrous infantry.
    - Make runesmiths provide map wide magic resistance OR reduce enemy mana recharge rate
    - Increase number of gyros in a gyrocopter unit so that it increases the volume of fire
    - Provide rangers with crossbows, stalk, vanguard as well as rangers with crossbows, stalk, vanguard and heavy weapons to be able to harrass the enemy with an efficient unit
    - Reduce mass of dwarves to make them less vulnerable to vortexes while providing them with a bonus similar to "hold the line" (could be called "grumpy" or something) that the imperials get
    - Increase the firing arcs of all ranged units
    - Reduce cost of canons, organ guns, flame canons that are overpriced compared to practical efficiency.

    Bonus:

    - Provide "upgrades" to units in the form of runes for artillery and/or heroes/lords.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    No need to remove mass. Just increase resistance to vortexes for dwarfs
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • DeuzerreDeuzerre Member Registered Users Posts: 939
    Wing Zero said:

    No need to remove mass. Just increase resistance to vortexes for dwarfs

    Reducing mass while buffing the charge resistance through passive skills would do just that.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    The dwarves are constantly one of my toughest opponents on the campaign map as VC, esp since the nerf of invocation.

    Sorry OP, but the issue here isn't the dwarves being weak, but your choice of strategy and unit composition.

    I wish every time someone lost a fight they wouldn't come right here and demand a nerf for the army they lost to.

    All races are different, and while the dwarves don't have magic, they have excellent ranged, artillery, armor and morale.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    Wing Zero said:

    No need to remove mass. Just increase resistance to vortexes for dwarfs

    Vortex spells are already nerfed into the ground.

    They should do damage, and an army that just stands under them should be punished.

    This whole push to remove the things that make races different and cool is getting a little too extreme. Both VC and dwarves are completely viable.
  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827
    edited September 2016
    Saphiron said:

    Wing Zero said:

    No need to remove mass. Just increase resistance to vortexes for dwarfs



    This whole push to remove the things that make races different and cool is getting a little too extreme. Both VC and dwarves are completely viable.
    Thats complete ****. Neither the dwarfs or chaos warriors are viable. Saying otherwise just proves your ignorance.

    Dwarfs are okay in Campaign. They completely suck in MP.
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    An expanded Rune system would iron most of the issues with the Dwarfs, because an expanded Rune system should mean the Anvil of Doom get's added and it should balance out the Dwarfs weakness to magic. By changing how some of the current Runes work, for example the Master Rune of Spell Breaking being able to dispel magic and the Anvil of Doom should buff all the Runes that a Runesmith or Runelord can use (so the Rune of Wrath and Ruin is actually viable against a deathball).
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 525
    edited September 2016
    Saphiron said:


    This whole push to remove the things that make races different and cool is getting a little too extreme. Both VC and dwarves are completely viable.

    Nobody is asking for race to be identical. Never heard of asymetrical balance? Right now the word balance is missing from the equation and thats what people are asking for.

    1 pound of rock equal 1 pound of paper. For a balance there is no difference they are the same, but fondamentaly different.

    Bretonia is a good example of a race that play differently but is still very competitive. Hell its roster is not even complete, but its well balanced versus other races, it have an almost equal fighting chance.

  • Caustic63Caustic63 Registered Users Posts: 16
    Hmm,

    If Dwarfs had a Rune System similar to the Regiments of Renown allowing for benefits comparible to their TT army book like Rune of Slowing (basically made it very difficult to charge the unit with it) or the Engineering Runes that define their artillery as the best in the old world, a lot of these issues would be solved.
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,156
    Give Dwarves charge resist. Their lack of cavalry means their faction perk should be to resist it better. Also more anti-large melee options. Perhaps give it to GW Warriors? Would be overkill on GW Longbeards and Hammerers.

    And I think Irondrakes and Slayers need to cost less already. These are extremely fragile units, in a faction that has no mobility to effectively screen them. They are too much glass, and too big an expense, for the cannon they bring.
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    Do Dwarfs need higher melee defense as well as a higher charge defense, seeing as Bretonnia's infantry only seems to serve their faction in pinning the enemy units down for their cavalry to flank and Bretonnia is still somewhat viable despite their cannon fodder peasents.

  • InfletoInfleto Member Registered Users Posts: 305
    No, here is why dwarfs are 100% unplayable in MP.

    your opponent will pick empire, then spam range/arty
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