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Fixing the uselesness of the Dwarves and the OP nature of VC

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  • TotalWarChakaxTotalWarChakax Registered Users Posts: 601
    edited September 2016
    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH
  • SteppelordSteppelord Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,264
    They'll buff dwarves one day. Just don't play them till then. I mean you have six other factions to choose from.
  • SaphironSaphiron Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    The thing is these factions recruit and support stacks differently in campaign, i mean dwarves vs orcs, dwarves SHOULD be stronger and orcs should have numbers.

    If they're exactly equal in quick battle the dwarves will be at a huge disadvanatge on the map.

    Sadly Mp is getting far more attention then campaign, including versus and coop campaign.
  • TotalWarChakaxTotalWarChakax Registered Users Posts: 601
    Saphiron said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    The thing is these factions recruit and support stacks differently in campaign, i mean dwarves vs orcs, dwarves SHOULD be stronger and orcs should have numbers.

    If they're exactly equal in quick battle the dwarves will be at a huge disadvanatge on the map.

    Sadly Mp is getting far more attention then campaign, including versus and coop campaign.
    Saphiron said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    The thing is these factions recruit and support stacks differently in campaign, i mean dwarves vs orcs, dwarves SHOULD be stronger and orcs should have numbers.

    If they're exactly equal in quick battle the dwarves will be at a huge disadvanatge on the map.

    Sadly Mp is getting far more attention then campaign, including versus and coop campaign.
    Saphiron said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    The thing is these factions recruit and support stacks differently in campaign, i mean dwarves vs orcs, dwarves SHOULD be stronger and orcs should have numbers.

    If they're exactly equal in quick battle the dwarves will be at a huge disadvanatge on the map.

    Sadly Mp is getting far more attention then campaign, including versus and coop campaign.
    I know, it's sad that total war gives more attention to mp. They started as a single player game and went on to being a single player focused game, now it looks like they are going to care more about mp than sp
  • stratigostratigo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 264

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    And in Atilla, I can beat legendary AI using nothing but War dogs.

    The AI is easy to beat.

    MP balance is where actual balance can be found, you can beat Ai easily with most army comps.
  • JDog91JDog91 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 526
    stratigo said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    And in Atilla, I can beat legendary AI using nothing but War dogs.

    The AI is easy to beat.

    MP balance is where actual balance can be found, you can beat Ai easily with most army comps.
    That isn't the point he's making.

    Some of us dislike playing online. Singleplayer balance is important and is effected by changes made for MP.

    I would much prefer balance changes to be made somewhat separately personally.
  • TotalWarChakaxTotalWarChakax Registered Users Posts: 601
    stratigo said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    And in Atilla, I can beat legendary AI using nothing but War dogs.

    The AI is easy to beat.

    MP balance is where actual balance can be found, you can beat Ai easily with most army comps.
    In mp balance they don't have to worry about upkeep, army losses diplomacy etc.

  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    edited October 2016
    I think Heir point out more that the Claw of Nagash + Vlad von Carstein + regen Corpse cart + Sternsman is broken.

    I played a similar setup with VC. Claw of Nagash+Vlad von Carstein+ 2x regen Corpse cart + Sternsman and your are fine with Zombies and Grave Guards you dont even need flyers or cavalry to beat anyone.

    Also it would be nice, if the greatweapon dwarf warriors and longbeards would recieve a small damage buff.
    Post edited by herjan1987 on
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    I think Heir point out more that the Claw of Nagash + Vlad von Carstein + regen Corpse cart + Sternsman is broken.

    I played a similar setup with VC. Claw of Nagash+Vlad von Carstein+ 2x regen Corpse cart + Sternsman and your are fine with Zombies and Grave Guards you dont even need flyers or cavalry to beat anyone.

    Also it would be nice, if the greatweapon dwarf warriors and longbeards would recieve a small damage buff.

    He pointed that out vs AI........

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,830
    edited October 2016
    Avadon said:

    I think Heir point out more that the Claw of Nagash + Vlad von Carstein + regen Corpse cart + Sternsman is broken.

    I played a similar setup with VC. Claw of Nagash+Vlad von Carstein+ 2x regen Corpse cart + Sternsman and your are fine with Zombies and Grave Guards you dont even need flyers or cavalry to beat anyone.

    Also it would be nice, if the greatweapon dwarf warriors and longbeards would recieve a small damage buff.

    He pointed that out vs AI........
    The purpose of the video was to show how powerful vc healing is even after the nerf. Personally I think VC are in a great place right now.

    Dwarfs and chaos are the factions that need to get some price adjustments done as their compositions are limited.
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    Avadon said:

    I think Heir point out more that the Claw of Nagash + Vlad von Carstein + regen Corpse cart + Sternsman is broken.

    I played a similar setup with VC. Claw of Nagash+Vlad von Carstein+ 2x regen Corpse cart + Sternsman and your are fine with Zombies and Grave Guards you dont even need flyers or cavalry to beat anyone.

    Also it would be nice, if the greatweapon dwarf warriors and longbeards would recieve a small damage buff.

    He pointed that out vs AI........
    The purpose of the video was to show how powerful vc healing is even after the nerf. Personally I think VC are in a great place right now.

    Dwarfs and chaos are the factions that need to get some price adjustments done as their compositions are limited.
    The purpose was clear but AI in total war warhammer will never be a good test subject.

    The scenario was also impractical as well. Since there were no truly effective steps to even counter the VC units.

    A bad show case will never show the full picture.

  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    edited October 2016
    The main issue with the dwarf and Chaos infantry that they dont have really cost effective anti-armor/anti-infantry capabilities.

    This where the Empire and VC shines. The graveguard and greatswords are flat out the best infantry units in the game. Even thou Chaos chosen are equal good they cost almost 1.5x time more.

    Here is a small unit comparison between regular and great weapon unit in the game:

    Unit Comparison

    Just look the cost of the unit and the amount of AP+AI damage they dish out, which is always applied when fighting infantry.
    Post edited by herjan1987 on
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • MadDemiurgMadDemiurg Registered Users Posts: 2,575
    Sorry to bust your bubble, but anti infantry damage is not AP. Also, your link does not work.

    Team Daemons of Chaos

    Team Skaven

    Team Orcs & Goblins

  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    if I'm not mistaken Hammerers have about 40 armour piercing damage, the Greatswords deal almost half the AP damage and unlike the Hammerers they have a special anti infantry bonus.

    I posted a stat comparison with Hammerers vs Greatswords.
    The Greatswords have:
    • 18 less weapon stregnth
    • 14 less melee attack
    • 2 more melee defense
    • 400 more hitpoints
    • 4 more charge bonus
    • 5 more armour
    • 20 more models
  • KzickasKzickas Registered Users Posts: 23
    I think the problem with grave guard and greatswords' anti-infantry bonus is that monsters like trolls are currently too weak. You shouldn't charge your cavalry head on into the enemy infantry, so the only way to really fight them is with infantry, and the bonus becomes a lot less conditional than it sounds. It gets worse for the dwarves of course who only have infantry.
  • stratigostratigo Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 264

    stratigo said:

    I agree as long as it's seperated from sp, becuase yeasterday i used a 16-stack as dwarfs which all had half hp and only the most basic units (quarrelers, warriors and miners) to defeat two 20-stacks of VC. One of them was Mannfred with his sword, a varghulf, grave guard, black knights and som basic units. The other also had grave guard and black knights, but half of this army was basic. So they had more than more than tripple, maybe even four times as many as i had, and they still lost

    Edit: it was on VH

    And in Atilla, I can beat legendary AI using nothing but War dogs.

    The AI is easy to beat.

    MP balance is where actual balance can be found, you can beat Ai easily with most army comps.
    In mp balance they don't have to worry about upkeep, army losses diplomacy etc.

    Look, I don't know what to say, the AI is never going to be a match for a human player. It can spam 5 armies for every 1 you have, and with a little bit of experience, you can beat all of them, often one at a time, with much less valuable armies. The balance is, essentially, the player is gonna win. If SP needs balance, you can tweak it easily on the campaign more or through the AI bonuses, and you don't need to touch the battlefield. In MP, all you have is the battlefield, and it is player hands that reveal what units are good or not.

  • herjan1987herjan1987 Registered Users Posts: 644
    edited October 2016

    Sorry to bust your bubble, but anti infantry damage is not AP. Also, your link does not work.

    Even, if its not AP there much wider random damage applied, which means that your troops will be killed easier.

    To give you data:

    Greatswords have the possebility to do 41 damage thats the 5th highest damage out put in the normal and great weapons category. Only the Graveguard with great weapons 47, Chosen with great weapons 46, regular graveguard 45 and the regular chosen 42 has higher theoretical damage out put. The thing the Greatswords are second cheapest unit in between these 5. Only the regular graveguard is cheaper by 200 gold.

    The link is fixed.

    Before you go that Graveguard has bad melee attack just attach the regen deathstar to 5 units of mixed graveguard with some zombie meatshields and see how they grind down the opposition.
    Team Dwarfes
    Team Brettonnia
    Team Tomb Kings
    Team High Elf
    Team Averland

    Leitdorf for Emperor!

    Original Regiments of Renown and Dogs of War
    Make Marious Leitdorf a playable Legendary Lord
    Warhammer Fantasy Novels in Black Library
  • beetlebuddybeetlebuddy Registered Users Posts: 134
    none of the new dwarf units look capable of seriously changing these problems :/
  • HellbenderHellbender Registered Users Posts: 32
    edited October 2016
    Flame Cannon projectiles needs to cause Terror. Heck, it says so in the description.

    Enemies struck by the Flame Cannons have their flesh melted off them in a slough, leaving only scorched bones and foul-smelling liquid that is best described as "goo". Even the bravest of those who survive, after seeing their comrades so gruesomely reduced, have been known to flee immediately.

    This won't help against VC, of course, since they are immune to Terror.

    However, VC are their natural enemies and an entirely magical (necromantic) army, against which Dwarfs have natural resistance. Hence they need to have an extra 10-20% damage resistance against them.
  • FerrousTarkusFerrousTarkus Registered Users Posts: 525
    Nerf greatswords and graveguard. Bring down empire and VC to faction tier 2. With the balanced ones. Its either that or buff 5 others factions... The choice is simple.
  • FloppingerFloppinger Registered Users Posts: 527
    A blow struck by an undead creature (there are exceptions ofc) is a physical attack like any other. Just because the thing is animated by magic, doesn´t mean its attack is magical.

    And yeah, Flame Cannons damage is pathetic and should be buffed.
  • salsichasalsicha Registered Users Posts: 3,572
    In case no one noticed, the next DLC is coming out in a week with a bunch of new Dwarf units. A lot of balance issues will probably be resolved by that.
  • AvadonAvadon Registered Users Posts: 1,543

    A blow struck by an undead creature (there are exceptions ofc) is a physical attack like any other. Just because the thing is animated by magic, doesn´t mean its attack is magical.

    And yeah, Flame Cannons damage is pathetic and should be buffed.

    Fire damage in general is pathetic and should be buffed.........

    It also requires a DoT (damage over time) effect.

  • Wing ZeroWing Zero Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 827

    The end game fighting the Dwarves in Campaign is pretty tough, more often than not Dwarves are the FINAL and MOST PAIN to fight against as VC. Dwarves always seem to overwhelm the Orcs towards the turn 130 mark and by then the Dwarves have about 25 pieces of territory and that makes things QUITE overwhelming, I can just picture turtles with steel welded on their shells with guns and knives poking every which direction; Dwarves are a PAIN at the end. I beat the campaign at turn 318 with VC, most of those turns are handed to the Dwarves.

    How is this relevant to anything?
    ''The difficulty of tactical maneuvering consists in turning the devious into the direct, and misfortune into gain.
    -Sun Tzu

    "Tolerance, Diversity, Strength"
    - Seleucid

    Team Chaos Dwarf
  • erza321erza321 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,350
    Avadon said:

    A blow struck by an undead creature (there are exceptions ofc) is a physical attack like any other. Just because the thing is animated by magic, doesn´t mean its attack is magical.

    And yeah, Flame Cannons damage is pathetic and should be buffed.

    Fire damage in general is pathetic and should be buffed.........

    It also requires a DoT (damage over time) effect.
    The issue here is the Dwarfs "flame weapons" aren't exactly fire weapons and shouldn't be really classed as such, the Flame Cannon targets would with it was just fire being fired at them.

    The Flame Cannon fires a volatile mix of moltan tar and boiling oil that is air pressured to the point of exploding, only then is a burnig oily wad placed into the nozzle to ignite the mixture when fired.

    Also the Dwarfs did have their own backwards version of the Steamtank in 3rd edition (or did it come before the Steamtank), the Dwarf Juggernaut which only appeared in this edition.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    Ungrim + runesmith
    front meatshield +flank: 2 miners, 2 miners +satchel charges, 2 dwarf warriors
    kill line: 1slayer, 2 hamerers, 2 gw. longbeards
    missile: 2 quarellers
    arty: 1 lvl 9 grudge thrw.

    Keep units deep, default is good. Make small stocky army 3x3 units approx, ranged in middle, longbeards last line.
    Fire up all the defensive /offensive spells at proper time.

    You could take 2 runesmiths, just one defensive spell each, sell rest, sell most spells from lord.

    This army is fairly hard to kill. Unless opponent is cheesing with his artillery or something else, many rushes will break teeth here.
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